How old is the earth?

Halbhh said:

I think if you look carefully in Genesis 2, you'd see that's not in the passage:

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep....

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That idea this happened all in 1 day must then come from the nowhere-in-the-Bible added idea that the Garden of Eden was only 1 day in duration.

Which scripture nowhere says clearly, but instead is 1 of 2 possible guesses....

I, like many, believe/make the reasonable guess that the Garden happened after the 6 days of creation. We are not told either way, but this is the most simple way to read the text of Genesis 1 into Genesis 2 -- the least complex way. That the Garden happened after the 6 days.

Both views are guesses.

But this one is the simpler, more straightforward reading -- that the text is all in sequence.


So, the Garden after Genesis 1 is simply the most straightforward reading of the text, and I would doubt a more convoluted reading.

And Adam was the first human being (of all that existed) to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit -- giving him the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

When Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and took a wife there, it seems likely he found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

This and many things are not told to us.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

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The city of Nod were the offspring and descendants of Adam & Eve.

“Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17‬:‭26‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN said:

Please read Genesis 1:

“Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭26‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God created both man and female on the sixth day.

“Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God created man, then Adam named the animals, then after that God made Eve from Adam. All of this took place on the 6th day according to the scriptures.

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I was realizing a minute ago where you got that idea about the Garden of Eden being only 1 day long(!), and so I get it now, as you just confirmed also. Thanks for the civil response (and having no accusations)!

BNR32FAN said:

The city of Nod were the offspring and descendants of Adam & Eve.

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Yes, of course -- that is what fits your viewpoint. That's consistent...

I just now clarified some things below and included more details that are crucial.

To hopefully avoid stereotyping, let me repeat I believe in every word of Genesis 1 literally.

So, try to keep that in mind and read on for a minute, and I'll try to keep it short!

As you will easily realize if you can recall all the Bible (or can verify if not), scripture nowhere says clearly whether the Garden of Eden, specifically itself, happened during Day 6 or after Day 6....

That's 2 possibilities.

We all can only have our best guesses (including all theologians, etc.).

I, like many, believe/make the very reasonable guess that the Garden happened after the 6 days of creation. And not just for random guessing....

For one thing, the Garden certainly lasted more than 1 day!

That is in the text by very strong suggestion (chapter 3, look and see )

But that's not all.

This belief the Garden was after Day 6 is also the most simple way to read the text of Genesis 1 into Genesis 2 -- the least complex way.

So...then Adam (just like we read) was the first human being (of all that existed) to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit --

Spirit is associated to wind and air and the Breath of God, and you'll recognize this in a very very famous verse you may know by heart.

And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit." -- John 20:22

God breathed Life (as in with a capital "L") into Adam ---

Giving Adam the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

There is more we can notice once we see this...

For example, also when Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and had a wife there, it seems likely that instead of marrying a sister, Cain found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

This does raise one really interesting question though. Did those other humans in the land of Nod already living there....did they have souls accountable to God on the Day of Judgement?

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

Maybe. Maybe He then gave accountable souls to all living humans outside (after the fall in the Garden, as Adam and Eve were ejected) -- all that are our type, not Neanderthals but all the modern humans, who look just like us.

This and many small details about very many things are not told to us. God is instead in the scripture teaching us lessons about life for us today -- for me and you for our lives today!

About how we should live.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

Halbhh said:

As you will easily realize if you can recall all the Bible (or can verify if not), scripture nowhere says clearly whether the Garden of Eden, specifically itself, happened during Day 6 or after Day 6....

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God placed Adam in the garden of Eden before He made Eve. I just quoted that to you in Genesis 2:15-23. God made both Adam and Eve on the 6th day.

“Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Halbhh said:

For example, also when Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and had a wife there, it seems likely that instead of marrying a sister, Cain found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

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We’re all descendants of Noah, inbreeding was not forbidden at this time. That’s the only way you can get from one male & one female to a world population.

Halbhh said:

I think if you look carefully in Genesis 2, you'd see that's not in the passage:

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep....

--------

That idea this happened all in 1 day must then come from the nowhere-in-the-Bible added idea that the Garden of Eden was only 1 day in duration.

Which scripture nowhere says clearly, but instead is 1 of 2 possible guesses....

I, like many, believe/make the reasonable guess that the Garden happened after the 6 days of creation. We are not told either way, but this is the most simple way to read the text of Genesis 1 into Genesis 2 -- the least complex way. That the Garden happened after the 6 days.

Both views are guesses.

But this one is the simpler, more straightforward reading -- that the text is all in sequence.


So, the Garden after Genesis 1 is simply the most straightforward reading of the text, and I would doubt a more convoluted reading.

And Adam was the first human being (of all that existed) to be given a specifically God-breathed spirit -- giving him the first-ever human soul that would then be accountable to God on the Day of Judgement to come.

Making Adam the first of us.

All other hominids (Neanderthals, etc.) and even modern humans that were already created in day 6 of creation did not have God-breathed spirit/souls that will be accountable on the Day of Judgement.

So, Adam was the first of us humans that will be Judged on the Day of Judgment.

When Cain murdered his brother Abel and then was exiled to travel off to the land of Nod, and took a wife there, it seems likely he found a wife there, from peoples that already lived there, humans from Day 6....

We are not told if after God gave Adam the first-ever soul accountable to God on the Day of Judgement whether God might also have then given all other already living humans outside the Garden souls also.

This and many things are not told to us.

I try to always carefully remember what is told to us, and what is left for us to try to guess at, and not confuse the 2.

Click to expand...

Another thing I forgot to mention, the scriptures don’t say that Cain & Able were Adam & Eve’s first offspring.

BNR32FAN said:

Another thing I forgot to mention, the scriptures don’t say that Cain & Able were Adam & Eve’s first offspring.

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Yes, and I never assumed so.

It's not needed by the way to quote to me lengthy passages of scripture in Genesis chapters 1 through 3 to lay out basically what is there, since I've read Genesis (entire book) in full at least 6 times, but also these first four chapters over 12 times, and with very many things like extensive cross references, and multiple commentaries, but also just pure listening in a humble way to learn the text by heart. As in every word in memory. What one can do (and should) is read it in multiple translations, to be sure you aren't caught up in merely a particular translation's peculiarities. Also of course one can review the Hebrew via Strongs in many places. I've done all of these, but also, again, I've also additionally just read it several times with just pure humble listening also in the many translations, to better notice more.

Did you find yet in the text how we can see the very strong suggestion the Garden lasted much more than just 1 day?
I have to go for today. Please don't feel you need to rush a discussion like this. I'll come back later or another day to continue.

BNR32FAN said:

I’m sorry I don’t understand the question, can you please rephrase it?

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So does Dr. Ross make any obvious scientific errors? (Sorry, I made an error when I originally asked the question.)

Halbhh said:

Yes, and I never assumed so.

It's not needed by the way to quote to me lengthy passages of scripture in Genesis chapters 1 through 3 to lay out basically what is there, since I've read Genesis (entire book) in full at least 6 times, but also these first four chapters over 12 times, and with very many things like extensive cross references, and multiple commentaries, but also just pure listening in a humble way to learn the text by heart. As in every word in memory. What one can do (and should) is read it in multiple translations, to be sure you aren't caught up in merely a particular translation's peculiarities. Also of course one can review the Hebrew via Strongs in many places. I've done all of these, but also, again, I've also additionally just read it several times with just pure humble listening also in the many translations, to better notice more.

Did you find yet in the text how we can see the very strong suggestion the Garden lasted much more than just 1 day?
I have to go for today. Please don't feel you need to rush a discussion like this. I'll come back later or another day to continue.

Click to expand...

I never said that Adam & Eve were in the garden for one day. I said Adam named all the animals in one day because that’s what the scriptures say. And I didn’t post any lengthy passages, the passages I quoted were just long enough to prove my point. My quote from Genesis 1 had to prove that Adam & Eve were created on the 6th day and it was just long enough to accomplish that. My quote from Genesis 2 needed to prove that Adam was placed in the garden of Eden and named the animals before Eve was created and that quote was no longer than it needed to be to prove those points.

Halbhh said:

I was realizing a minute ago where you got that idea about the Garden of Eden being only 1 day long(!)

Click to expand...

I never said the garden of Eden was only 1 day long.

FaithT said:

So does Dr. Ross make any obvious scientific errors? (Sorry, I made an error when I originally asked the question.)

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Well I’m not a scientist but I noticed a few things that didn’t sit right. One was that the Bible says that the laws of physics doesn’t change but another was when he was talking about how to combat global warming and he suggested that we replace cows with ostriches as a protein source. What I thought was strange was that he said the only problem is ostriches can’t be treated like cows, they can’t just be placed in a field with food and water, they need human interaction because they are social animals. And I’m thinking to myself ok if he believes that the animals were created over a hundred thousand years ago, where were the ostriches getting this human social interaction while they were surviving out in the wild for the last couple hundred thousand years? There were a few other things but they seem to escape me at the moment.

BNR32FAN said:

Well I’m not a scientist but I noticed a few things that didn’t sit right. One was that the Bible says that the laws of physics doesn’t change but another was when he was talking about how to combat global warming and he suggested that we replace cows with ostriches as a protein source. What I thought was strange was that he said the only problem is ostriches can’t be treated like cows, they can’t just be placed in a field with food and water, they need human interaction because they are social animals. And I’m thinking to myself ok if he believes that the animals were created over a hundred thousand years ago, where were the ostriches getting this human social interaction while they were surviving out in the wild for the last couple hundred thousand years? There were a few other things but they seem to escape me at the moment.

Click to expand...

LOL! OK thanks.

BNR32FAN said:

One thing Dr Ross makes clear is that his intention is to convince his peers in the science community that God does exist so that in itself causes problems with his theology in that it limits his interpretations to be compatible with science. If you’ve listened to him very much I’m sure that you’ve heard him claim that the Bible says that the laws of physics do not change. He bases that statement on Jeremiah 33. This is the passage he’s referring to.

““Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. Thus says the Lord, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’ ””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭33‬:‭24‬-‭26‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now this is a pretty ambitious statement to support his interpretation but it becomes crystal clear that this interpretation does not include miracles when you read the gospels and find that Jesus walked on water. Not to mention Lot’s wife turning to a pillar of salt. I think it’s quite clear that in the case of miracles being performed that the laws of physics do in fact change. Obviously Jesus could not walk on water without the laws of physics changing and Lot’s wife couldn’t be turned into a pillar of salt without the laws of biology and chemistry changing.

So far I still haven’t found where he says that time didn’t exist in the garden of Eden. As for the definition of the word Yom and Adam naming all the animals, we don’t know how many animals were in the garden at that time and I’m sure you could easily name at least 100 animals in 60 seconds. The passage says that God brought the animals to him so it’s not as if he had to go find each one. But let’s say he did have to name 25000 animals that could be accomplished in less than 5 hours at 100 animals per minute. So even if he could only name 50 animals per minute that’s still just over 8 hours. Dr Ross being an astrophysicist should be able to do simple math such as this. There’s still the problem with the term “there was evening and there was morning”. This statement is telling us there was one evening and one morning not multiple evenings & mornings. Now if Dr Ross is going to say that these evenings and mornings were longer than 24 hours then he is contradicting himself by saying that the laws of physics do not change because that would require a change in the laws of physics. The longest a plant can survive without sunlight is 20 days and that’s only a very few types of plants that can survive that long. Dr Ross sounds pretty smart on the surface but he makes a lot of statements that cannot be supported by science or the scriptures.

Click to expand...

I can't respond to the many points you have made in your post, and as far as the technical stuff, because I don't have a PhD in Physics, I don't know enough to comment on views related to that science. However, seeing that Jesus actually created the laws of Physics he is well able to work outside of them without causing an overall change of the laws of Physics in the space time dimension.

The garden of Eden was created in our space time dimension, so there was the process of time which involved one event following another in a linear process. But it was not measured, other than the division between day and night according to the rotation of the earth. So, without clocks, time cannot be measured.

As far as the time Adam took to name the animals, we can't impose some kind of time/motion study to say he named so many animals in a particular time. Because there were no time constraints on him, he could take as long as he liked to name them. He wasn't going anywhere and had no other appointments. There were no instructions that he had to fit in everything that he did on day 6 into 24 hours. Anyone with common sense would see quite clearly that tending the garden, naming the animals, enjoying interaction with them, receiving surgery, and recovering from it would take more than 24 hours. Perhaps God could create something in an instant of time, but Adam wouldn't be able to do all that the same way. Problem is that some religious people turn their brains off when deciding what they think should happen.

You need to read your quote from Jeremiah more carefully because it does not say that God changes the law of Physics. What he does say is that the laws of Physics would have to change before He would reject His chosen people. To say that God changes the laws of Physics is to twist the Scripture to say something it does not say. Accurate exegesis, thou art a jewel!

BNR32FAN said:

Just heard him say something interesting in this video titled “the science of creation lecture #4. At 45 minutes into the video he explains how humans could not survive on earth if the days were 23 hours long or 25 hours long. In order for humans to survive on earth the days must be 24 hours long.

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That refers to supporting life on earth, and not supporting a six 24 hour day creation. Comparing apples with oranges.

Watchman1 said:

As far as the time Adam took to name the animals, we can't impose some kind of time/motion study to say he named so many animals in a particular time. Because there were no time constraints on him,

Click to expand...

Not true, according to the scriptures in Genesis 2 Adam named the animals after being placed in the garden of Eden BEFORE Eve was created. According to Genesis 1:26-31 we know that both Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. So there is a time restraint placed on how long it took him to name the animals. According to the scriptures it happened in one day. After he was created and before Eve was created.

Watchman1 said:

Anyone with common sense would see quite clearly that tending the garden, naming the animals, enjoying interaction with them, receiving surgery, and recovering from it would take more than 24 hours.

Click to expand...

The scriptures do not say that Adam cultivated the garden on the 6th day. They also don’t say that he enjoyed interacting with the animals. They do however specifically state that he named all the animals before Eve was created and that both Adam & Eve were created on the same day. So if Adam and Eve were both created on day 6 and he named all the animals before Eve was created then how many days is that? That’s common sense.

BobRyan said:

...fom wild speculation about "bacteria eventually giving rise to rabbits given enough time and chance".

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This misrepresents what the theory of evolution actually says. It is not only chance and time, but also natural selection that are at play. Those who deny the theory of evolution frequently misrepresented in this way, perhaps hoping to oversell the chance element.

Watchman1 said:

You need to read your quote from Jeremiah more carefully because it does not say that God changes the law of Physics. What he does say is that the laws of Physics would have to change before He would reject His chosen people. To say that God changes the laws of Physics is to twist the Scripture to say something it does not say. Accurate exegesis, thou art a jewel!

Click to expand...

I didn’t say that Jeremiah says that God changes the laws of physics. I said it’s an ambiguous statement to base an interpretation on that the laws of physics never change. That’s Dr Hugh Ross’s interpretation of the verse. Jesus walking on water refutes his interpretation of that verse.

Watchman1 said:

That refers to supporting life on earth, and not supporting a six 24 hour day creation. Comparing apples with oranges.

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Yes I agree with you. Dr Ross believes the days were epochs but my point was that he doesn’t support the idea of longer days than what we have now. My problem with his interpretation of Yom as meaning epochs is how many evenings and mornings are in said epochs? The scriptures say “there was evening and there was morning” singular form, not plural.

So far I’ve repeatedly demonstrated that OEC is not a sound theology because it cannot be explained without contradicting what is written in the scriptures. Creation is a miracle brothers & sisters, it can’t be explained by science and it does not coincide with what science tells us.

BNR32FAN said:

So far I’ve repeatedly demonstrated that OEC is not a sound theology because it cannot be explained without contradicting what is written in the scriptures. Creation is a miracle brothers & sisters, it can’t be explained by science and it does not coincide with what science tells us.

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Is creation considered to be a supernatural event?