How old is the earth?

BNR32FAN · Jul 14, 2023

Halbhh said:
I don't blame you for not carefully reading my posts, and having a wrong idea what I wrote (for instance, you are repeating to me what I've repeatedly already written above (several times now) -- the days in Genesis 1 were real, 24 hour days, with an evening and a morning -- there were 6 real 24 hour days, as I said several times).

I've done that plenty myself (failing to read someone's post carefully enough to even know what they said!

But if you do choose to read my posts above more carefully, I think you'd get closer to knowing what I was trying to say.

That doesn't mean you have to read my posts!

You can utterly ignore what I write, and I won't be angry or spiteful about that!

But please do try not to respond as if I wrote some other thing than what I wrote. (you would not want someone to do that to you)

I know the posts were sorta long. But it's been years and I've read Genesis 1-4 perhaps 20 or 30 times now, the rest of Genesis 6 times in full, most of the Old Testament books 4 or more times, and all the rest of the Old Testament 3 times fully through, and finally, I do have more than just a few sentences to say about what I've read.

I apologize if I have misrepresented what you wrote in your earlier posts but I assure you that I have read all of your posts in full. It appeared to me that you were saying that Genesis 1:1 did not take place during the 6 days of creation.

Halbhh said:
The wonderful verses 1 and 2 are of course not about time, but still we can notice that particular time duration (from the beginning in verse 1 and whatever duration that had to the later moment in verse 2) isn't even suggested in any way:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

no time duration stated in verse 1 for these actions...
then, eventually, this moment comes:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

According to this I don’t see how I could’ve possibly misunderstood your position on this matter. Then when I quoted Exodus 20:11 as evidence that verse 1 actually did take place in that 6 days you said I was quoting that verse out of context which was another clear indication that your position is that verse 1 did not take place during that 6 days. So I’m confused on how you can say that I’m not reading your posts and I’m misrepresenting your position.

Halbhh · Jul 14, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I apologize if I have misrepresented what you wrote in your earlier posts but I assure you that I have read all of your posts in full. It appeared to me that you were saying that Genesis 1:1 did not take place during the 6 days of creation.

According to this I don’t see how I could’ve possibly misunderstood your position on this matter. Then when I quoted Exodus 20:11 as evidence that verse 1 actually did take place in that 6 days you said I was quoting that verse out of context which was another clear indication that your position is that verse 1 did not take place during that 6 days. So I’m confused on how you can say that I’m not reading your posts and I’m misrepresenting your position.

I wrote quite a bit about Exodus 20:11, because it's very important to this topic, and I first brought it up myself in a discussion many years ago with someone on this topic, because that person wasn't aware it would be the only possible verse to support their position, and I wanted them to at least know what is considered the strongest way to present their own position. But I hoped that also they could get past merely reading the verse out of context. The verse very forcefully is entirely and only about 1 thing, and that comes across with the full reading of the more full scripture quote I copied over above.

It was sorta a long post, but I can't think of how to make it shorter. And besides, it's a topic you care about, right, so you should be willing to just read that much of the scripture as the context without any trouble, so my guess was that you simply never saw that part of that post.

Why?

Because, for me it's impossible to read that scripture through with listening (as I strive to do -- pure listening) and then think verse 11 can be about some additional topic(s) beyond strictly and entirely about keeping the Sabbath, alone.

The scripture is so forceful, when I just listen.

Because of the context, the dramatic and truly singular situation, where God is talking at length to the people en mass, I get it -- I hear the words, and He says to keep the Sabbath, even as He Himself made the day holy by His own resting!

Also, very notably, the key word "Therefore" had much significance for our discussion, but I didn't see you indicate you'd read that part..., because that's non trivial. It's central to our topic.

What do you think about the Matthew 7 quote with "Therefore"?

BNR32FAN · Jul 14, 2023

Halbhh said:
I wrote quite a bit about Exodus 20:11, because it's very important to this topic, and I first brought it up myself in a discussion many years ago with someone on this topic, because that person wasn't aware it would be the only possible verse to support their position, and I wanted them to at least know what is considered the strongest way to present their own position. But I hoped that also they could get past merely reading the verse out of context. The verse very forcefully is entirely and only about 1 thing, and that comes across with the full reading of the more full scripture quote I copied over above.

It was sorta a long post, but I can't think of how to make it shorter. And besides, it's a topic you care about, right, so you should be willing to just read that much of the scripture as the context without any trouble, so my guess was that you simply never saw that part of that post.

Why?

Because, for me it's impossible to read that scripture through with listening (as I strive to do -- pure listening) and then think verse 11 can be about some additional topic(s) beyond strictly and entirely about keeping the Sabbath, alone.

The scripture is so forceful, when I just listen.

Because of the context, the dramatic and truly singular situation, where God is talking at length to the people en mass, I get it -- I hear the words, and He says to keep the Sabbath, even as He Himself made the day holy by His own resting!

Also, very notably, the key word "Therefore" had much significance for our discussion, but I didn't see you indicate you'd read that part..., because that's non trivial. It's central to our topic.

What do you think about the Matthew 7 quote with "Therefore"?

I’ve quoted verses 24-27 numerous times. Just go to search and type Matthew 7 and enter my name. Anyway it really doesn’t matter because the word “therefore” doesn’t in any way imply that what follows is not to be taken literally. Your supposition about Genesis 1:1 only appears to be plausible when looking at Genesis 1 by itself but it doesn’t withstand the test of all scripture.

Halbhh · Jul 14, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I’ve quoted verses 24-27 numerous times. Just go to search and type Matthew 7 and enter my name. Anyway it really doesn’t matter because the word “therefore” doesn’t in any way imply that what follows is not to be taken literally. Your supposition about Genesis 1:1 only appears to be plausible when looking at Genesis 1 by itself but it doesn’t withstand the test of all scripture.

Please forgive me for writing rather a lot of words of my own, too many at times. Perhaps then I should only have written only this in that post:

...the "therefore" in Exodus 20:11 is meaningful, important. It connects the meaning -- God rested on the seventh day (and blessed this day and made it holy), and the people should emulate Him in that. That's the intended meaning.

That's why the verse 11, the reprise of Genesis 1 - 2:2-3 is there.

It's there in order to convict/change/move/impress Israelites to actually follow the Sabbath!

The words of verse 11 can hit those that listened with the powerful message that God Himself took a Sabbath, and therefore they, mere mortal humans, should do so also -- we who are not up to the level of God -- even if some might have been inclined to think to themselves they don't need to keep the Sabbath, hearing that God rested on the Sabbath and made it holy should alter their view and convict them to do so!

So, that's why verse 11 reprises Genesis 2:2-3.

2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

SavedByGrace3 · Jul 14, 2023

The seventh day has never ended, lending support to the idea that these "days" are not 24 hour days, rather they are periods of time/or "declaration days" on which events are initiated and then play out in time. I wonder about the "declaration day" idea because it specifically says these first 6 days actually had an end. But once again, the 7th day seems to be continuing.

BNR32FAN · Jul 14, 2023

Halbhh said:
It's there in order to convict/change/move/impress Israelites to actually follow the Sabbath!

Exodus 20:11 could’ve convicted them by saying that God created everything in the heavens and on the earth in 6 days. God didn’t have to include that He created the heavens and the earth during that time to cause that conviction. What you’re saying is that Exodus 20:11 is worded incorrectly and that God did not create the heavens and the earth in 6 days. What you’re doing is directly contradicting scripture my friend.

Diamond72 · Jul 15, 2023

Miles said:
are you claiming miracles cannot involve anything measurable?

The issue with miracles is that everything is restored. So it is difficult to prove there was ever a problem.

Diamond72 · Jul 15, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
The seventh day has never ended, lending support to the idea that these "days" are not 24 hour days

People do not understand what a Paradigm is. Everything follows a pattern. There has to be an original, then you can copy the original.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
Exodus 20:11 could’ve convicted them by saying that God created everything in the heavens and on the earth in 6 days. God didn’t have to include that He created the heavens and the earth during that time to cause that conviction. What you’re saying is that Exodus 20:11 is worded incorrectly and that God did not create the heavens and the earth in 6 days. What you’re doing is directly contradicting scripture my friend.

Whoa, it appears you must feel threatened too much to even accurately read my posts, which I did not expect to happen....

So I must then obey

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

BNR32FAN · Jul 17, 2023

Halbhh said:
Whoa, it appears you must feel threatened too much to even accurately read my posts, which I did not expect to happen....

So I must then obey

Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.

biblehub.com

Which part do you believe I misread? Can you quote it please and elaborate on how my reply seems to be misunderstanding you.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
Which part do you believe I misread? Can you quote it please and elaborate on how my reply seems to be misunderstanding you.

Here's where you misrepresented me:

BNR32FAN said:
What you’re saying is that Exodus 20:11 is worded incorrectly and that God did not create the heavens and the earth in 6 days.

First, God's Word is perfect, and always accomplishes the purpose He sends it out to do!
-- Isaiah 55

And I just wrote directly to you about how good and effective the wording of this verse is. I'll bold it:

Halbhh said:
...the "therefore" in Exodus 20:11 is meaningful, important. It connects the meaning -- God rested on the seventh day (and blessed this day and made it holy), and the people should emulate Him in that. That's the intended meaning.

That's why the verse 11, the reprise of Genesis 1 - 2:2-3 is there.

It's there in order to convict/change/move/impress Israelites to actually follow the Sabbath!

The words of verse 11 can hit those that listened with the powerful message that God Himself took a Sabbath, and therefore they, mere mortal humans, should do so also -- we who are not up to the level of God -- even if some might have been inclined to think to themselves they don't need to keep the Sabbath, hearing that God rested on the Sabbath and made it holy should alter their view and convict them to do so!

So, that's why verse 11 reprises Genesis 2:2-3.

2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

His words in verse 11 are prefect, and will accomplish what He sent them out to do.

"so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

The Holy Word of God, Isaiah chapter 55

---------

Also... I also wrote in my early main post to you that I believe God created in 6 days, and they were real days, and 24 hour days and so on, but perhaps somehow you missed it even though you assured me you read my posts through, so now I'll bold that from the early main post I wrote to you:

Halbhh said:
As I was writing to you before (but let me try to make it more clear and complete here), my own guess is these are 24 hour days (I might be wrong on that), and they are (as I wrote above) not video or photo reproductions in the vision, but a representation of an actual specific day (my guess), and those days are like snapshots in time (as I wrote above), meaning moments in time over a longer time: like photos you have of a child growing up over the years.

Photos of your child growing up are of course of actual moments in time that are real. So, that's my own theory. If you wanted to know!

Summary: as I've several times posted, God created in 6 days, and my own personal view is that they were real days being written about in Genesis 1 -- actual days that happened -- and also my view is they are (as I repeatedly said already) 24 hour days (that's my guess), and they are like (similar in a way, in an analogy) snapshots in time (that's my guess)

Real days, actual ones, 6 of them. Snapshots in time.

Also, I wrote to you a question in an early post in our discussion:

Halbhh said:
as I think you already agree, Genesis chapter 1 is about something far more important and profound than time duration (x amount of time vs y amount of time).

I happen to believe in the text of Genesis 1 literally, in case you think that's important.

So, perhaps you'd then agree it's only a mere discussion of mere theory among believers if we discuss the relatively trivial question of precisely how old the Earth might be, yes?

While I had thought you implicitly agreed, if actually your answer to this question I asked you is "No.", then we both have to obey: Romans 14:1 - The Law of Liberty because it applies to one or both of us if your answer is "no" to that question I asked you early on and just quoted just above.

BNR32FAN · Jul 17, 2023

Halbhh said:
Also... I also wrote in my early main post to you that I believe God created in 6 days, and they were real days, and 24 hour days and so on, but perhaps somehow you missed it even though you assured me you read my posts through, so now I'll bold that from the early main post I wrote to you:

But you don’t believe that God created the heavens and the earth during that 6 day timeframe. You specifically stated that in this post.

Halbhh said:
The wonderful verses 1 and 2 are of course not about time, but still we can notice that particular time duration (from the beginning in verse 1 and whatever duration that had to the later moment in verse 2) isn't even suggested in any way:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

no time duration stated in verse 1 for these actions...
then, eventually, this moment comes:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

It's not about mere duration of time, but it's about something vastly more profound, wonderful and important.

Comparatively, mere time duration in mere mortal days is of no matter (if the time in verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 was 2.6 years or 1 hour or 9 billion years....all of these mere time durations are not of importance in comparison to the real point of the text).

Exodus 20:11 specifically states that God did in fact create the heavens and the earth mentioned in Genesis 1:1 during that 6 day time frame. So I haven’t misread anything and I feel that you’re strategically choosing your words carefully in order to falsely accuse me of misrepresenting you. Because in this particular post you chose to say that “God created in 6 days” but this time you didn’t specify what exactly He created. So just to clarify your official position on this topic, you don’t believe that Genesis 1:1 took place during that 6 day timeframe, right?

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
But you don’t believe that God created the heavens and the earth during that 6 day timeframe. You specifically stated that in this post.

Exodus 20:11 specifically states that God did in fact create the heavens and the earth mentioned in Genesis 1:1 during that 6 day time frame. So I haven’t misread anything and I feel that you’re strategically choosing your words carefully in order to falsely accuse me of misrepresenting you. Because in this particular post you chose to say that “God created in 6 days” but this time you didn’t specify what exactly He created. So just to clarify your official position on this topic, you don’t believe that Genesis 1:1 took place during that 6 day timeframe, right?

Follow the Golden Rule -- Matthew 7:12.

And, if you do want the answers to your questions here, then simply read every part of post #191 above for my full answers to precisely those questions except only the last one.

While I've already answered that last question also, I can do it again.

Just as I showed already in other posts, I trust exactly how the chapter reads:

A sequence:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

========
That's a sequence.

First verse 1 happened.

And then verse 2 happened.

And then verse 3 happened. And continuing.

Halbhh · Jul 17, 2023

This might help. God at times intentionally speaks in a way that can be understood by a certain people in a certain time and place according to what they know, which is less than we can see later in time with the help of having all the bible.

Here's a great example of heaven being described as if it was simply to be in the "bosom" of Abraham (literal translation). (also translated in modern paraphrase as "at Abraham's side")

Why?

Because being in the "bosom of Abraham" was something that the listening people at that moment could comprehend, instead of the more full picture being given which would have been beyond their ability to understand.

Instead of something that would confuse them, God spoke in a way that they could understand, even though it for the moment draws a picture more simple than the amazing reality:

19 And there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making good cheer in splendor every day. 20 And a certain poor man named Lazarus, being full of sores, was laid at his gate 21 and desiring to be fed from that falling from the table of the rich man; but even the dogs, coming, were licking his sores.

22 And it came to pass that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And in Hades, having lifted up his eyes, being in torment, he sees Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And having cried out, he said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.’

25 And Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you did fully receive your good things in your lifetime, and Lazarus likewise the evil things. But now he is comforted here, and you are suffering. 26And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those desiring to pass from here to you are not able, nor can they pass from there to us.’

27 And he said, ‘Then I implore you, father, that you would send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.’

29 But Abraham says, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’

30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent.’

31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.’”

Luke 16 BLB

BNR32FAN · Jul 17, 2023

Halbhh said:
Follow the Golden Rule -- Matthew 7:12.

And, if you do want the answers to your questions here, then simply read every part of post #191 above for my full answers to precisely those questions except only the last one.

While I've already answered that last question also, I can do it again.

Just as I showed already in other posts, I trust exactly how the chapter reads:

A sequence:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

========
That's a sequence.

First verse 1 happened.

And then verse 2 happened.

And then verse 3 happened. And continuing.

Right, so according to your sequence Genesis 1:1, the creation of the heavens and the earth, did not take place on the first day of creation. That directly contradicts Exodus 20:11. I mean feel free to disregard that fact all you want but I’m going to believe that Exodus 20:11 is written correctly, the way God actually created the universe because with that interpretation everything coincides perfectly with no contradictions.

Paul4JC · Jul 17, 2023

Job 33:6 said:
View attachment 333092 hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Ah, good old Axis Mundi, aka the dragon monster Leviathan, who is part of God's creation process.

[Job 26:12-13 NET] 12 By his power he stills the sea; by his wisdom he cut Rahab the great sea monster to pieces. 13 By his breath the skies became fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

[Psa 74:14-16 NET] 14 You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you fed him to the people who live along the coast. 15 You broke open the spring and the stream; you dried up perpetually flowing rivers. 16 You established the cycle of day and night; you put the moon and sun in place.

Aussie Pete · Jul 17, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Some Christians think that the earth is between 6000 to 15,000 years old (coinciding with the Neolithic Age). Astronomers think that it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turns water into wine in John 2:

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

How old is this wine?

If you ask the servants, the human observers/witnesses, they would say a few seconds old.

The story continues:

9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

If you ask the expert, the master of the banquet, "How old is this wine?", he would say it was some months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ... 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from the natural perspective, he can only study the present-day physical data based on scientific calculation. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the Bible literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time (real-time) perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific-time point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

Why would God deceive people or scientists?

God did not deceive people. The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Did not God create the universe last Thursday?

No, this is not the same as Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. As a witness, I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:

6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:
24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Roughly, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. Space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

I distinguish between these two concepts of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the real historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time even when there were no live animals there to observe the original events.

The only reason that time matters is that billions of years are required to allow for evolution. There are so many flaws in evolution that can only be dismissed with "enough" time. Whatever that is. No one knows. No one is even sure if time is constant. One thing that is measurable is the distance of the moon from the earth. The moon is being pushed away from the earth by the earth's rotation (simple version). If the earth was 4.57 billions of years old, the moon would have escaped earth's gravity by now. We would have no tides apart from the very small effect from the sun. Radiometric dating proves nothing except that assumptions are invalid. No one knows if the rate of radio active decay is constant. "In the beginning, God created............." No room for evolution in that statement.

tonychanyt · Jul 18, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
There are so many flaws in evolution

Name one.

Veloman · Jul 18, 2023

Considering that the James Webb telescope just recently found some deep space galaxies that indicate that the universe is billions of years older than what scientists had thought up until about a month ago, I would have to conclude that our planet is 4.5 billion years old.
Considering that this observable evidence is in fact, factual--my awe for God's limitless power and majesty is all the greater. Anyone who looks at the photos of this evidence that is so much more than any human has the capacity to fathom, and says, "There is no God" is clearly an ignorant fool.

tonychanyt · Jul 18, 2023

Veloman said:
Considering that the James Webb telescope just recently found some deep space galaxies that indicate that the universe is billions of years older than what scientists had thought up until about a month ago, I would have to conclude that our planet is 4.5 billion years old.
Considering that this observable evidence is in fact, factual--my awe for God's limitless power and majesty is all the greater. Anyone who looks at the photos of this evidence that is so much more than any human has the capacity to fathom, and says, "There is no God" is clearly an ignorant fool.

Thanks for sharing.

See Adam, Eve, and Evolution and follow up there

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