How old is the Earth?

[yeshuasavedme]

The center of the universe is everywhere, because on any observers point of view anywhere would observer distant galaxies moving away in all directions.

The center of the universe is Jerusalem, which God the Creator calls the navel of the earth.
All the universe is just an extension of the created earth, with its heavens, which heavens were stretched out from the earth on day 2, between the divided waters of creation.

The half of the waters are still above the heavens.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

I still don't know how the light could have got from the distant stars, to earth. I can't get my head around it at the moment. I wonder if Sungenis is a young or old earther?

 

[Calminian]

I still don't know how the light could have got from the distant stars, to earth. I can't get my head around it at the moment. I wonder if Sungenis is a young or old earther?

I don't know that a very good precise model has been found yet by creationists, but one thing that helps me understand is the relative nature of time, as Einstein understood it. Now the concept that time is distorted by things like velocity and gravity is quite mind boggling to me, but we've observed it.

Now while I can't make a suggestion on what happened in the beginning as far as exact details, I do that know that God speaks of stretching out the heavens numerous times in scripture. I also think Gen. 1:6-8 is a direct reference to the stretching out of the heavens. This implies to basic things. 1) taking elements from high density to low density (and thus high gravity to low gravity), and 2) velocity. I find that a bit uncanny.

Now Russell Humphreys and other creationists have suggested various white hole theories (opposite of black holes), in which time distortions existed at the initial creation from both gravity and velocity, causing some portions of the universe to age faster than others. But even they will explain it's merely a possibility.

But I do find the fact that time has been shown to be relative, and that the heavens were said to be stretched out, shows that it is likely the general reason for what we observe today.

Psa. 104:2 The LORD wrapsa himself in lightb as with a garment;
he stretchesc out the heavensd like a tente

Don't know if that helps, but hope it does.

 

[Mikecpking]

The center of the universe is Jerusalem, which God the Creator calls the navel of the earth.
All the universe is just an extension of the created earth, with its heavens, which heavens were stretched out from the earth on day 2, between the divided waters of creation.

The half of the waters are still above the heavens.

Evidence?

Here is mine:

Where is the centre of the universe?

 

[Fascinated With God]

Evidence?

Here is mine:

Where is the centre of the universe?

Your source does not have a very good grasp of science. The Big Bang had to originate from some place. The fact that we cannot see the edge of the universe in any direction (it estimated to have a lower bound of 80 billion light years across), hardly means that it has no edges.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I don't know that a very good precise model has been found yet by creationists

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Mikecpking]

Your source does not have a very good grasp of science. The Big Bang had to originate from some place. The fact that we cannot see the edge of the universe in any direction (it estimated to have a lower bound of 80 billion light years across), hardly means that it has no edges.

The big bang started with a singularity much small than an atom! Therefore, everywhere was 'within'.

The link was actually from the University of California so I guess it should have had a good grasp of science?

 

[Fascinated With God]

The big bang started with a singularity much small than an atom! Therefore, everywhere was 'within'.

The link was actually from the University of California so I guess it should have had a good grasp of science?

OK, I read the whole thing. You should have gone to the end, which contradicts the title:

...there is still a possibility that these models are not accurate on scales larger than we can observe. We still have no real answer to the question "Where is the centre of the universe?".
​

So I am afraid that your source does not actually say what you thought it said.

 

[Mikecpking]

OK, I read the whole thing. You should have gone to the end, which contradicts the title:

...there is still a possibility that these models are not accurate on scales larger than we can observe. We still have no real answer to the question "Where is the centre of the universe?".
​

So I am afraid that your source does not actually say what you thought it said.

But you could argue it is 'everywhere in the universe'.

 

[Mikecpking]

It only takes a little digging!

Origins: Hubble: Tools: The Center of The Universe | Exploratorium
Google

 

[Fascinated With God]

It only takes a little digging!

Origins: Hubble: Tools: The Center of The Universe | Exploratorium
Google

The fact that everything is moving away from everything else does not mean that there is no center.

"It turns out that every point in the universe sees itself as the center!" That is just a way of expressing the fact that dark energy is causing everything to move away from everything else. He is explicitly not stating that everywhere is the center of the universe. You are taking the author completely out of context.

 

[ChetSinger]

But you could argue it is 'everywhere in the universe'.

Yes, you're exactly right. In the Big Bang model the universe has no center, no edge, and wherever you are in the universe, it appears like you're in the center. It is the "unbounded" solution of the GR equations used by cosmologists to describe the universe. The initial explosion doesn't occur in space, but creates it's own space as it expands.

The "bounded" solution is the one used by Russell Humphreys in his book "Starlight and Time". That universe does have a center and an edge. The initial explosion occurs in already-existing space and expands into it.

Both solutions are mathematically valid. The first one was chosen for a logical reason: galactic density is pretty much uniform no matter which direction we look, and in the first model that's true everywhere in the universe. In the second model it's only true if you're actually near the center.

Evidence of the second solution, the one used by Humphreys, would include the discovery of concentric shells of galaxies around us, in an effect called 'galactic redshift quantization'. This effect was claimed to be found in 1977 by Tifft, debunked, found again, debunked again, and found again, the latest time by John Hartnett. He actually got it published (!), believe it or not.

I know I'm being wordy, but I'm interested in this stuff and like talking about it.

hiscosmicgoldfish, if you're still following along, YEC Humphreys solves the old-starlight problem by using GR to actually stop time around the earth for billions of years, giving all that distant starlight time to get here. So he gets to have a young earth and an old universe simultaneously. Wild stuff.

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear his, The first heaven was made the 2nd Day. Genesis 1:6-8 Our second heaven, or the beginning of our world, was made on the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:4, the SAME Day the first Earth was made.

Scripture agrees with Science and tells us that our world was made at the beginning of the 3rd Day. God's Truth must agree with every other discovered Truth or it is not God's Truth.

his:>>I don't understand this theory.

Dear his, It's not a theory but instead is what Scripture actually says. Gen 1:6-8 tells us the firmament, which God called "heaven" was made the 2nd Day.

Genesis 2:4 tells us the LORD made other heavenS (Plural) on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the first Earth was made. The first heaven was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:5-7 and our world will be burned. ll Peter 3:10 This means that Christians will be taken to the 3rd heaven, spoken of in ll Corinthians 12:2, the new heaven and earth of Revelation 21:1.

Science agrees with Scripture since it tells us our world had a beginning. God tells us our beginning was on the 3rd Day some 13.7 Billion years ago in man's time but on the 3rd Day in God's time. This shows that each of God's Days or Ages is some 4.5 Billion years in length. Science and Scripture are in agreement. It's proof of God since NO man of the time could have possibly known this.

In Love,
Aman

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I still don't know how the light could have got from the distant stars, to earth. I can't get my head around it at the moment. I wonder if Sungenis is a young or old earther?

The light was brought into being right here, in the heavens of earth, before they were stretched out. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, in darkness.
There was no light "out there, because there was no "out there".
Light was brought into being, and the light and darkness were separated and the light and dark revolved around the earth, making one day.
The heavens of the earth's creation were stretched out on day 2, from this earth, and the light was stretched out with the heavens.
Were there stars? yes, because the creation is electric.

Its supernaturally created, supernaturally brought into being, and supernaturally upheld.
holoscience.com | The Electric Universe | A sound cosmology for the 21st century

It is no coincidence that Scandinavian scientists led the way in showing that we live in an Electric Universe.[/font]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The fact that everything is moving away from everything else does not mean that there is no center.

"It turns out that every point in the universe sees itself as the center!" That is just a way of expressing the fact that dark energy is causing everything to move away from everything else. He is explicitly not stating that everywhere is the center of the universe. You are taking the author completely out of context.

When the stars fall to earth, they fall right down to their birth center....and they shall fall, as the Word of God states.
We live in a supernatural creation, supernaturally created, and supernaturally upheld.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Evidence?

The Word of God.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...the earth and the heavens were one creation, and not divided until day 2 of creation week.

When the heavens were stretched out on day 2, they were stretched out between the waters of earth''s creation, which were divided in two.
The waters are named mayim, by God the Creator, in Hebrew. The stretched out heavens are named sha-mayim, by God the Creator, in Hebrew. Basically, the stretched out heavens are named by how they are stretched out, by the division/cutting of the waters into two.

The physical navel of the earth, which earth is the place the heavens themselves were stretched out from, is Jerusalem in the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 38:2, in Hebrew, God states that is the navel/טבור tabbuwr of the land/eretz.

 

[Fascinated With God]

When the stars fall to earth, they fall right down to their birth center....and they shall fall, as the Word of God states.
We live in a supernatural creation, supernaturally created, and supernaturally upheld.

What does any of this have to do with our discussion about where the center of the universe is?








.

 

[Calminian]

...Dear his, It's not a theory but instead is what Scripture actually says. Gen 1:6-8 tells us the firmament, which God called "heaven" was made the 2nd Day.[

Genesis 2:4 tells us the LORD made other heavenS (Plural) on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the first Earth was made.

Let me offer an alternative as I don't think you have this quite right. The heavens and earth were created in verse one but unformed, as the next verse says. The earth was "formless and void," that is unformed and unfilled. The passages that follow in the rest of the chapter inform us of the shaping and naming and filling of the heavens and earth.

Initial creation of the matter, elements, etc. of the heavens and earth. v. 1

The forming/stretching of the heavens (plural) v. 6-7.
The naming of the heavens (plural) v. 8.
The filling of the heavens (plural) v. 14-18.

The forming of the earth (land) v.9. (this is when our actual planet was formed in my view, though its elements existed formlessly prior)
The naming of the earth (land) v. 10.
The filling of the earth (land) v. 24-27.​

Sure seems straightforward and concise to me. You see we're not talking about a different heavens or earth in any of these passages. They're all the same one. It's also interesting that in every case, the heavens are completed first in each aspect. The heavens are stretched out before the land is formed, they are named before the earth is named, and they are filled before the earth is filled. I find that interesting.

 

[Fascinated With God]

galactic density is pretty much uniform no matter which direction we look, and in the first model that's true everywhere in the universe.

This is entirely false, galaxies are filtred into 3D weblike-like structures or complex soap bubbles, that bound huge volumes of empty space. So the distribution is not random at all. There are dense huge superclusters and massive voids devoid of any galaxies. These structures are theorized to be the product of dark matter.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

What doews any of this have to do with our discussion about where the center of the universe is?

I answered this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7719470-7/#post62281877

The fact is, that stars will fall to earth. Fact is, stars were stretched out with the heavens, from the earth; and stars angels/forces are set in their constellations in the heavens to measure time and to control seasons on earth and to mark the seasons of YHWH.
Stars make the hailstones and floods, too which trouble this earth.

Jdg 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Jdg 5:21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.

Jos 10:11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, [and] were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: [they were] more which died with hailstones than [they] whom the children of Israel slew with the sword. Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Rev 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Our creation is not natural. It is supernatural.
God tells us so.