How NOT to convert people

[Brooklyn Knight]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."



http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf

I do agree that everyone has the right to free speech; even hate speech. With that said, there are limits.

The SC botched this ruling. It happens. Whether you're a theist or an atheist, laying to rest a loved one, a friend is a somber experience. That family and other mourners have the right to mourn without distraction and confrontation of such a magnitude.

There's a time and place for everything. Funerals are not one of them.

 

[MikeK]

How far does it have to go before people in power put a stop to it?

The USA is most definitely *NOT* a Christian country, no matter what you say, and the continued existence of WBC is the proof. They incite hatred. Shut them down! Shut them down! Shut them down!

No. What good is a right to free speech if that freedom extends only to the popular ideas of the day?
They can say God hates so-and-so. They have the right to be wrong, and the right to be loud. I have the right to tell them to get bent. It's a solid system.

 

[MikeK]

Please.

Would be understandable if he didn't have a nickel under his name, but he did...a few hundred thousand worth - worker's compensation.

C'mon! You can't have the sig you have and not know what I'm talking about!

 

[Memento Mori]

How far does it have to go before people in power put a stop to it?

The USA is most definitely *NOT* a Christian country, no matter what you say, and the continued existence of WBC is the proof. They incite hatred. Shut them down! Shut them down! Shut them down!

I would hate to live in a United States where a church can't operate because of its message... I don't think the government should have that kind of power over religion (and neither did the Framers of the Constitution, so good thing).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Be careful, this kind of stuff happens at the funerals of brave men and women who served our country. These freaks come to protest the military men and women as they are having their funeral services. These people chant and yell and scream and mock the families who are in mourning. IMHO they don't have the right to do such a thing....not to the souls of our brave warriors

No it's freedom and as abhorrent as they are I would fight for their freedom to do just that.

 

[isshinwhat]

Be careful, this kind of stuff happens at the funerals of brave men and women who served our country. These freaks come to protest the military men and women as they are having their funeral services. These people chant and yell and scream and mock the families who are in mourning. IMHO they don't have the right to do such a thing....not to the souls of our brave warriors

It absolutely enrages me to see them protesting at funerals, but as a military servicemember I still think they have the right to do it. Thank God for the Patriot Guard:

 

[WarriorAngel]

IMHO - being generous would have got her attention better than a fake tip.
That only upset her i am sure - since that is her pay.

Ppl do dumb things.

 

[christseeker45]

Be careful, this kind of stuff happens at the funerals of brave men and women who served our country. These freaks come to protest the military men and women as they are having their funeral services. These people chant and yell and scream and mock the families who are in mourning. IMHO they don't have the right to do such a thing....not to the souls of our brave warriors

Even as sick and twisted as that is freedom is more important than censorship

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don't believe anyone has the right to picket and protest and mock a funeral. That isn't freedom of expression, that is infringement on someone's sacred and solemn rights to mourn.....and it is especially sickening and revolting to see them doing this to our fallen heroes in uniform. God is watching.

We all have the right to protest and express ourselves, but not in every venue and circumstance that tramples on the rights of others. This is an area where I do favor a censorship mentality. Privacy and dignity must be respected and maintained with funerals, for anybody. If Bin Laden could get a respectful burial with Islamic sensitivities at sea, then so can our amazing soldiers who paid the ultimate price.

I know it sounds big government and censorish and exceptions to the rule, but I just can't help it.

Even as sick and twisted as that is freedom is more important than censorship

 

[christseeker45]

And I would fight you for there freedom and after turn and knock them cold as would be my right. Freedom for all or Freedom for none

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But what freedom do they have? Isn't a funeral a private matter? Privacy exists. We can't barge in to any endeavor or goings-on we wish to crash to protest. What is unconstitutional about saying that these nutjobs can't protest at a man's gravesite? Protests require permits by local city governments. There is a procedure for protest. In effect, there is nothing to protest. It's a funeral. It's sacred. It's private.

btw, you used the wrong "their" sorry, it's late and I've been grading one too many papers!

And I would fight you for there freedom and after turn and knock them cold as would be my right. Freedom for all or Freedom for none

 

[Ave Maria]

I have seen tracts before that look like a wallet. Basically you just drop it on the floor in a store or something for someone to pick up. The person picking it up thinks its a real wallet unless they open it and then they see the tract's message.

I personally think such tracts are a really poor method of evangelizing.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I don't believe anyone has the right to picket and protest and mock a funeral. That isn't freedom of expression, that is infringement on someone's sacred and solemn rights to mourn.....and it is especially sickening and revolting to see them doing this to our fallen heroes in uniform. God is watching.

We all have the right to protest and express ourselves, but not in every venue and circumstance that tramples on the rights of others. This is an area where I do favor a censorship mentality. Privacy and dignity must be respected and maintained with funerals, for anybody. If Bin Laden could get a respectful burial with Islamic sensitivities at sea, then so can our amazing soldiers who paid the ultimate price.

I know it sounds big government and censorish and exceptions to the rule, but I just can't help it.

I heard they have to stay back so many feet.

I agree - that there should be some sort of civility in order for funerals. The audacity this group has - has brought in something new - unheard of before. Cults are like that, however.

I think if they want the freedom to be so nasty - they ought to face a fine for public disturbance suring a time of mourning.
They want to picket - they can. They should be made to pay a cost for the demonstration only during times of deep distress to families.

And frankly, i would be the one to suggest the family sue them. YES - we are free to sue.
They should sue them for emotional distress during a time of deep grief because it causes emotional issues they didnt have before.

Sure, let them have at it - they will soon tire of the court cases - of infringement on the right to bury their dead in peace.

Freedom is no longer freedom when it hurts someone else.

We should not be free to demonstrate hate and harm - if it means someone is suffering.

Lets put it in perspective. Pro life advocates - 99.9999% dont make signs about God hating the folks going to the clinic - so it vastly differs.

BUT to make signs that God hates the person who died - that is deep emotional scarring because it is literally and positively HATE speech. It is emotional violence to make such comments.

Maybe keep the freedom to picket - but let everyone sue them. Get some great attorney to show the emotional impact on the families.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have seen tracts before that look like a wallet. Basically you just drop it on the floor in a store or something for someone to pick up. The person picking it up thinks its a real wallet unless they open it and then they see the tract's message.

I personally think such tracts are a really poor method of evangelizing.

I find it humorous that one church in our area has loads of those chick tracts and when i meet someone who goes there - i am sure to mention i am Catholic.

The reactions vary, but it always interesting. None have yet to try to convert me though. What's that say?

ETA - they dont know that i know their church has them.

 

[isshinwhat]

The “content” of Westboro’s signs plainly relates to public, rather than private, matters. The placards highlighted issues of public im- port—the political and moral conduct of the United States and its citizens, the fate of the Nation, homosexuality in the military, and scandals involving the Catholic clergy—and Westboro conveyed its views on those issues in a manner designed to reach as broad a public audience as possible. Even if a few of the signs were viewed as con- taining messages related to a particular individual, that would not change the fact that the dominant theme of Westboro’s demonstra- tion spoke to broader public issues. P. 8.

(b) Snyder also may not recover for the tort of intrusion upon seclu- sion. He argues that he was a member of a captive audience at his son’s funeral, but the captive audience doctrine—which has been ap- plied sparingly, see Rowan v. Post Office Dept., 397 U. S. 728, 736– 738; Frisby, supra, at 484–485—should not be expanded to the cir- cumstances here. Westboro stayed well away from the memorial ser- vice, Snyder could see no more than the tops of the picketers’ signs, and there is no indication that the picketing interfered with the fu- neral service itself. Pp. 13–14.

The church had notified the authorities in advance of its intent to picket at the time of the funeral, and the picket- ers complied with police instructions in staging their demonstration. The picketing took place within a 10- by 25-foot plot of public land adjacent to a public street, behind a temporary fence. App. to Brief for Appellants in No. 08–1026 (CA4), pp. 2282–2285 (hereinafter App.). That plot was approximately 1,000 feet from the church where the funeral was held. Several buildings separated the picket site from the church. Id., at 3758. The West- boro picketers displayed their signs for about 30 minutes before the funeral began and sang hymns and recited Bible verses. None of the picketers entered church prop- erty or went to the cemetery. They did not yell or use profanity, and there was no violence associated with the picketing. Id., at 2168, 2371, 2286, 2293.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf

I agree that what they are doing is disgusting, vile, and completely without class. But, as was said before, freedom for all or freedom for none.

 

[MikeK]

Freedom to say what another person or entity deems appropriate isn't freedom at all.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Three words:

Fighting words, incitement.

How the SC has the gall to say that this type of speech is protected, is actually ambiguous, not directed at anyone specifically, tells me that some SC justices are out of touch with reality.

Last Halloween, an atheist tried to be cute by dressing up as Mohammed with explosives around him. Had he only dressed like that, maybe nothing would have come of it, but he began saying that he was the prophet, making stupid jokes, yadda, yadda.

And he got assaulted by - I believe - by 3 Muslim youths.

Their consequence? Nothing.

I mean, what is the Court waiting for: For a loved one to approach Shirley Phelps and have them cave her face in?

 

[Aeyamar]

...at least the Dungeons and Dragons one was funny.

As an RPGer I both hate and find this tract hilarious.

 

[HisKid1973]

Ever go Trick-or Treating and recieve a Chick Tract? You better believe that's an egging. That's a whole year of eggings.

Hi Bro, grace and peace to you. We never took are kids t or t-ing but had many come to the house. Working at Hershey all those years I would rubber band a tract(chick or others) onto a big Hershey bar and never got egged for it. My committing my life to Christ started with a chick tract(This is your life) and I have passed out hundreds of them over the years. I have used those "money" ones but with any tract I leave it comes with a generous tip. Believe it or not I was recently banned from CA forum for sharing my testimony on how I came to Christ via a chick tract in a thread bashing chick.Lord only knows who allows the Holy
Spirit to start a work in their lives from reading a tract..

 

[MikeK]

Hi Bro, grace and peace to you. We never took are kids t or t-ing but had many come to the house. Working at Hershey all those years I would rubber band a tract(chick or others) onto a big Hershey bar and never got egged for it. My committing my life to Christ started with a chick tract(This is your life) and I have passed out hundreds of them over the years. I have used those "money" ones but with any tract I leave it comes with a generous tip. Believe it or not I was recently banned from CA forum for sharing my testimony on how I came to Christ via a chick tract in a thread bashing chick.Lord only knows who allows the Holy
Spirit to start a work in their lives from reading a tract..

Now that I have no problem with. Chick Tracts and candy? A-OK. Chick Tracts instead of candy? Ooh boy.

Ditto for the Dentists that gave out toothbrushes. That's cool, if there's also candy.