How narrow is the "narrow way"?

EmSw said:

I notice you didn't have a comment on Ezekiel 18:21. Is there a reason?

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The law did not save anyone in the OT. God rewarded them with material blessings and health for obedience. And he threatened death, sickness and loss of material gain for disobedience.

EmSw said:

Zacharias and Elizabeth did not set aside God's grace, they live in His grace.

Do you believe they were righteous before God?

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which means Christ paid for their sins as far as God was concerned. So they naturally were obedient and hated sin.

EmSw said:

All salvation is of grace.

As far as salvation by obedience, have you not read the following?

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It does not say 'unto all them who do nothing'. It says 'unto all them that OBEY HIM'.

How do you propose Jesus is the author of salvation without obeying Him?

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Those whom God saves always obey him because of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Holy Spirit must be present before you can want to obey God.

EmSw said:

Zacharias and Elizabeth were declared righteous before God by the works of the law.

If the law cannot save, how were OT saints saved? Show us any OT passages which state how they received life. I'll give you this passage from Ezekiel to show how they received life.

Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

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The Biblical example that is set forth for us according to this verse is the story of Jonah and Ninevah.

Notice here in verse 10, Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

This is speaking of their city being physically destroyed, how do we know? Verse 9, Jonah 3:9 "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Because Jonah warned in prophecy that Ninevah would be overthrown, Verse 4, Jonah 3:4 "And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Ninevah shall be overthrown."

The verse in Ezekiel 18:21 speaks of a man repenting of his sins so that the Lord spare him in this life, as the Bible gives us an example of in Jonah; otherwise, you're going to have to find at least one example in the Bible of a man repenting of his sins to be given salvation (eternal life, not simply mercy in this life), which doesn't exist.

However, the Bible is clear that a person is saved by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13, Acts of the Apostles 2:21, Joel 2:32).

Keeping in mind that God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6), his method of salvation wouldn't change. How do we know? Because we see men calling upon the name of the Lord way back in Genesis 4:26, and if you study the amount of years, Adam himself was still alive at this time: so men were calling upon the name of the Lord even since the first man was alive, which proves the same method for salvation: grace through faith in the Lord God. Just as Abraham was saved by faith (Romans 4:3), everyone before and since has been saved by faith. Noah found grace in God's eyes (Genesis 6:8), proving salvation by grace, howbeit it was both physical and spiritual salvation nonetheless, just as Enoch was saved and translated by God that he should not see death through faith (Genesis 5:22, Hebrews 11:5).

As you can see, the Bible obviously creates and testifies of a pattern in regards to salvation. It's obvious with any little study that God's method of salvation has always been purely grace through faith. It wouldn't be any different ever, because then the judgement of God would be a false balance, and a false balance is an abomination to the Lord (Proverbs 11:1), so because God's righteous and merciful, salvation has always been the same, so that all may be drink of the water of life freely (Revelation 22:17); coupled together with the law of God, with those who know the law, everyman is without excuse, for the law makes all guilty before God (Romans 3:19-20). Does all guilty before God sound like salvation to you?

Not to mention, if you claim salvation by the law in the Old Testament, how do you explain the salvation of men prior to the coming of the law? Because the Bible is clear that Abraham was saved by faith before circumcision, which was the seal of the covenant (Romans 4:10-12), making Abraham the heir of the world by faith and NOT according to the law (Romans 4:13).

Oh, and also: Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so it wouldn't make a difference if the saints believed on him before he came or after he came - it's still the same Savior since eternity.

In my heart. The gate is one man wide. Jesus Messiah of Nazareth. By grace through faith.

He ratified it through the cross. An example of it not being by works. Is given in


Luke 23: 40. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This man had no time left for works. Yet when he trusted in Jesus. Jesus assured him that he'll be with him in His kingdom.

EmSw said:

All salvation is of grace.

As far as salvation by obedience, have you not read the following?

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It does not say 'unto all them who do nothing'. It says 'unto all them that OBEY HIM'.

How do you propose Jesus is the author of salvation without obeying Him?

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But you obey him through the heart (Romans 6:17), which is believing the word of truth (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13) - this is what the Bible considers obeying the Gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8), because to obey the Gospel is to know God.

They who know not God did not obey the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21-23), for one knows the Lord by believing in him, and by accepting his righteousness and not your own (Philippians 3:9-10). The will of the Father is for us to believe on the one he has sent (John 6:40) and for those believing to be resurrected on the last day (John 6:39) according to our eternal, predestined inheritance (Ephesians 1:3-14, Romans 8:29) of immorality and incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:53) by the will of God.

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
—it is by grace (unmerited Love/Mercy/favor) you have been saved.
8 For by GRACE (Love/Mercy) you have been SAVED through FAITH (/BELIEF);
and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves,
it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;
9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

GOD offers Grace and spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF to all. Some accept. Some don't.

John 5:24 (all NASB) “Truly, truly, I (Jesus) say to you,
he who hears My word, and believes (has spirit-led FAITH in) Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

Spirit-led FAITH = Spirit-led BELIEF

John 6
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him "WILL (is certain to) have "eternal life"",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I "GIVE eternal life to them", and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who HAS GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.” (IN SPIRITUAL ESSENCE AND NATURE!)

Dave L said:

All of this is works if you turn the gospel into law, and make salvation conditional.

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Dave, you keep repeating this phrase like it answers the question, you have to use the biblical definition of "work" and "law" and as I pointed out you also make "faith" the condition.

bling said:

Dave, you keep repeating this phrase like it answers the question, you have to use the biblical definition of "work" and "law" and as I pointed out you also make "faith" the condition.

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People who think salvation is conditional, turn the gospel into law. Here's how it works. The true gospel = Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. Whoever believes this has eternal life. No act of the will is involved. Either a person believes what they heard or they don't.

But, many evangelists today would say the same except add to it, "whoever chooses to believe" has eternal life. Meaning they do not have eternal life until they choose it for themselves.

So the true gospel is the good news about eternal life for all who believe the gospel. And this is salvation by grace.

Those who think they must do something to activate eternal life end up saving themselves in their thinking.

Dave L said:

The law did not save anyone in the OT. God rewarded them with material blessings and health for obedience. And he threatened death, sickness and loss of material gain for disobedience.

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A lot of OT saints sure don't agree with you. Oh wait, there are no OT saints in your view; nobody was saved, right?

EmSw said:

A lot of OT saints sure don't agree with you. Oh wait, there are no OT saints in your view; nobody was saved, right?

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Was Abraham saved? How about Abel and Job? Or all of the faithful listed in Hebrews 11? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit they all had as well.

Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which means Christ paid for their sins as far as God was concerned. So they naturally were obedient and hated sin.

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Sorry, you, like a lot of people, are adding to the word of God. You won't find anywhere in the OT where Jesus paid for their sins.

Dave L said:

Those whom God saves always obey him because of the Holy Spirit in their hearts. The Holy Spirit must be present before you can want to obey God.

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The disciples obeyed and hadn't received the HS. Where do you get your ideas?

Dave L said:

Was Abraham saved? How about Abel and Job? Or all of the faithful listed in Hebrews 11? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit they all had as well.

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Many were saved in the OT. But you won't find anywhere in the OT that it was because Jesus paid for their sins.

Dave L said:

People who think salvation is conditional, turn the gospel into law. Here's how it works. The true gospel = Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. Whoever believes this has eternal life. No act of the will is involved. Either a person believes what they heard or they don't.

But, many evangelists today would say the same except add to it, "whoever chooses to believe" has eternal life. Meaning they do not have eternal life until they choose it for themselves.

So the true gospel is the good news about eternal life for all who believe the gospel. And this is salvation by grace.

Those who think they must do something to activate eternal life end up saving themselves in their thinking.

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You're talking in circles.

"Whoever believes this has eternal life. No act of will is involved." Contradictory statement: a person's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ is what they must do (Acts 16:30-31). "What must I do to be saved?" "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

In another place, the Bible says, "And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

What you're doing is attacking the choice men have of whether to receive Christ or not. Belief is a choice, no ifs ands or buts. A man cannot believe something without choosing to believe it.

"Those who think they must do something to activate eternal life end up saving themselves in their thinking." This is indeed works if one thinks they can do anything at all to activate eternal life, but the Bible is clear: a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive everlasting life given through his name. He must choose to receive a free gift, otherwise it's forced on him and God doesn't do that, otherwise everyone would be saved.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

You're talking in circles.

"Whoever believes this has eternal life. No act of will is involved." Contradictory statement: a person's belief on the Lord Jesus Christ is what they must do (Acts 16:30-31). "What must I do to be saved?" "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

In another place, the Bible says, "And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

What you're doing is attacking the choice men have of whether to receive Christ or not. Belief is a choice, no ifs ands or buts. A man cannot believe something without choosing to believe it.

"Those who think they must do something to activate eternal life end up saving themselves in their thinking." This is indeed works if one thinks they can do anything at all to activate eternal life, but the Bible is clear: a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ to receive everlasting life given through his name. He must choose to receive a free gift, otherwise it's forced on him and God doesn't do that, otherwise everyone would be saved.

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You are trying to turn the gospel into a law for the self-righteous to earn salvation through.

EmSw said:

Many were saved in the OT. But you won't find anywhere in the OT that it was because Jesus paid for their sins.

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“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8)

No act of the will is involved. Either a person believes (has spirit-led FAITH about) what they heard or they don't.

RESPONSE: Man responds to the spiritual call / draw of God for a spiritual CHOICE/DECISION.
Some accept. Some reject.

1 Chronicles 28:9...King David to his wise son upon passing his kingdom
“As for you, my son Solomon,
know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind;
for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.
If you SEEK Him, He will let you find Him; but
if you forsake Him, He will reject you.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So CHOOSE LIFE in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

John 3:36...John the Baptizer on Jesus: CHOOSE
1. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; (BELIEVER)
but
2.he who does not obey (TO BELIEVE IN!) the Son will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him.” (UN-BELIEVER)

John 1...CHOOSE!
11 He came to that which was His own, but His own did NOT receive Him.
12 Yet to all who DID receive him,
to those who BELIEVED in his name, he gave the right to become "children of God"
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but "born of God"

Revelation 3:20...CHOOSE!
Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Matthew 7:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you;
seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and
he who seeks finds, and
to him who knocks it will be opened.

A saved believer has CHOSEN to go through the narrow gate and follow Jesus the Good Shepherd by spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF. John 10

Dave L said:

You are trying to turn the gospel into a law for the self-righteous to earn salvation through.

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No, I'm trying to tell you that salvation just doesn't fall out of the sky onto some random person. A person has to accept or receive the free gift (John 1:12).

You have no verses whatsoever to prove anything you say, and I only keep showing verses to support my stance. You don't seem to base your idea off of anything biblical. You are almost saying that faith itself is a work - Abraham himself was fully persuaded (convinced) that God was able to perform that which he promised; he staggered not at unbelief. Did Abraham not choose to believe God and trust him? Or did the trust-fairy magically drop trust-dust on him and Abraham was then imputed righteousness without Abraham ever knowing that he believed God?

I mean, really, your point falls apart. Just admit you're a calvinist already and you believe in predestination.