How much sin?

[Godzchild]

God indeed has problem with every sin, from the smallest to the greatest of them. But for those who believe in his Son, Jesus Christ, our Father God does not look at us based on our sins, but he sees Jesus and the finished work. Jesus has paid the price for every single sin (from the smallest to the greatest) from the beginning to the end of time.

Yes!!!!!!!!

We have been imputed the righteousness of Christ. When God looks upon us, he doesn't see our sin, he sees the righteousness of Jesus.

 

[paraducks]

Yes!!!!!!!!

We have been imputed the righteousness of Christ. When God looks upon us, he doesn't see our sin, he sees the righteousness of Jesus.

Amen and amen.

 

[enoch son]

You are completely and stunningly wrong.

It wasn't a "false" statement, it was a sarcastic statement!....

Trust me, you just missed the humor of it brother.

I saw your sarcastic statement and rise you one. Want go around in a circle because this is were this thead will go. "ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT." I don't understand how someone can think it ends a salvation? A statement of disbelief about the son would be the greater sin. like oh-god resaved me.

 

[psalms 91]

yes, God sees us through the blood of Jesus in His righteousness when we plead the blood of Jesus and repent of our sins. It is not automatic anymore than salvation is. To many want a sit back religion, God does it all, and He doesnt, we must do something. Read your bible almost all the promises of God are I will if you will. When we are saved does God remove the stumbling blocks or not? No because he expects US to do battle with His help and to learn that without Him we are truly lost.

 

[Godzchild]

yes, God sees us through the blood of Jesus in His righteousness when we plead the blood of Jesus and repent of our sins. It is not automatic anymore than salvation is. To many want a sit back religion, God does it all, and He doesnt, we must do something. Read your bible almost all the promises of God are I will if you will. When we are saved does God remove the stumbling blocks or not? No because he expects US to do battle with His help and to learn that without Him we are truly lost.

Then you do not understand salvation my friend. It is not about us and our efforts - it's about Christ and his efforts.

Again, let me ask you...how much sin do I need to commit to undo the work of the ALMIGHTY? Please tell me how powerful I have to be to undo this work.

 

[Godzchild]

Maybe if more people sat back and allowed God to do the work instead of them doing it all then more people would be secure in their salvation. If it was up to us to keep ourselves saved then none of us will be saved. NONE!!!!.

The day I realised that it wasn't about my measely efforts to keep myself and that I was kept by GOD'S POWER was the day I was truly set free. I was set free because I sat back and took my hands off of God's work and allowed him to work. I took my eyes off myself and my efforts and put it on HIS finished efforts on the cross. It was only then that I truly felt assured - for the first time in my life, that I was saved and I will be kept hidden in Christ until I am revealed on the last day.

So many of you have missed the boat!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I had a very interesting thought. It might be prophetic for someone.

There was the boatload of disciples in the middle of the Sea of Galilee. Here comes Jesus walking on the water. He says "Come!" Peter has the courage to step out of the boat, even though all the disciples were invited. The others are too scared and stay in the boat.

We think that the yellow bellies who stayed in the boat were faithless and unbelieving, so what about the ones who missed the boat in the first place and weren't even there?

 

[Godzchild]

It's me Oscarr! I've had the same vision

 

[Doug45]

Then you do not understand salvation my friend. It is not about us and our efforts - it's about Christ and his efforts.

Again, let me ask you...how much sin do I need to commit to undo the work of the ALMIGHTY? Please tell me how powerful I have to be to undo this work.

Godzchild,

As a personal note of testimony, I am secure totally in my salvation but still accept the fact that I must work out that salvation in concert with God working in me. I am sure that you are more comfortable with the idea that God will do it all, and I am also sure that you'll find adequate scripture to support your position. But you might explain for yourself, how that works together with the many condititional promises in His word.

You could explain Esau's losing his birthright as the ultimate will of God, therefore in that case He wouldn't intervene. We can make grand assumptions about God that may not be true, being mere speculations that actually hide the very nature of Jesus.

Destiny is a part of our salvation. He has plans for each one of us. But what is really at stake is not our eternal destiny, whether we go to heaven or hell when we die, but our response to Him and the circumstances may very well be the difference in 'Joseph' living out his days in prison or being rasied to a place that fills his divine destiny on earth, allowing God the opportunity to establish and sustain a nation.

I want you to understand that I am in no way questioning your salvation or your eternal 'address'. I just believe that you might need to rethink carrying the doctrine farther than scripture teaches. God is a paradox. Answering a seeming inconsistency by eliminating one of the aspects that are 'seemingly' in conflict actually hinders a person's perspective and awareness of God.

Just some things to think about; and by all means not an attack. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

Doug

 

[Joy]

I agree Doug
I must confess such attitudes imply that real temptations do not exist, do not battle with sins of the flesh etc. No need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. No need to wear the armor No need to resist the devil, no need to persist in prayer and no need to confess and repent of sin just focus on Jesus and everything will be ok.

There's a problem all these issues are written after believers were born again so i do not agree with such as those who insist they are the only ones who are true Christians and those who disagree are not christians at all

karen

 

[Godzchild]

Godzchild,

As a personal note of testimony, I am secure totally in my salvation but still accept the fact that I must work out that salvation in concert with God working in me. I am sure that you are more comfortable with the idea that God will do it all, and I am also sure that you'll find adequate scripture to support your position. But you might explain for yourself, how that works together with the many condititional promises in His word.

You could explain Esau's losing his birthright as the ultimate will of God, therefore in that case He wouldn't intervene. We can make grand assumptions about God that may not be true, being mere speculations that actually hide the very nature of Jesus.

Destiny is a part of our salvation. He has plans for each one of us. But what is really at stake is not our eternal destiny, whether we go to heaven or hell when we die, but our response to Him and the circumstances may very well be the difference in 'Joseph' living out his days in prison or being rasied to a place that fills his divine destiny on earth, allowing God the opportunity to establish and sustain a nation.

I want you to understand that I am in no way questioning your salvation or your eternal 'address'. I just believe that you might need to rethink carrying the doctrine farther than scripture teaches. God is a paradox. Answering a seeming inconsistency by eliminating one of the aspects that are 'seemingly' in conflict actually hinders a person's perspective and awareness of God.

Just some things to think about; and by all means not an attack. I simply disagree with your conclusions.

Doug

It all works together - I once thought as you do now

I guess it's easy to look at others who you disagree with and assume that it must be because they are not aware of God like you are. But then you don't really know the person.

Again I ask you - how powerful do I have to be to undo the work of the almight? Can you even answer that question?

 

[Doug45]

I guess that I am not talking so much about our eternal destiny than our destiny with respect to our part in His kingdom on earth. This deviates from your orginal concern. But it only took one stroke of Moses' staff to break his path to his ultimate destiny. It only took Esau one meal to separate himself from his destiny.

As for 'can we walk out of our eternal salvation?', I believe it is difficult but possible. I believe the scripture is too clear in its warnings for it not to be possible. Since the scripture does not define quantitatively how far we can go before we accomplish that feat, I cannot, nor can anyone else answer your question definitively.

While I cannot come up with chapter and verse, there is a passage in Psalms, I believe, that says He looks past our sins, but judges our unrighteous attitude or heart. I will look diligently for the reference because I believe it to be pertinent to this discussion.

I believe it is more a matter of attitude than a matter of a particular quantity of sin. Are we pursuing Him? He is careful to guide our steps on the paths of righteousness for His namesake. Are we pursuing our own self interest and denying His call on our lives? We are walking on dangerous ground.

Romans 1:21-32
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [22] Professing to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
[24] Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. [25] For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[26] For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, [27] and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
[28] And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, [29] being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; [32] and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Ultimately, the creature that we always tend to place above God or in place of God is none other than ourselves. That rebellion, if we insist upon it will eventually lead to God giving us over to our own lusts.

The Father is the one who can answer this question, not anyone here. And I believe that it is different for every one of us. And may differ during the course of our lives. Ask Him.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[belladonic-haze]

It takes a sinful lifestyle to loose your salvation. In other words, you can murder someone and not loose your salvation. But if you are a serial killer, you will loose your salvation. A person can have a homosexual encounter and not loose his salvation. But if he lives as a homosexual, a homosexual lifestyle, he will loose his salvation.

So, you can commit murder? Is one innocent life less then say....five?????

An example to check this; if you rape one woman you will not loose your salvation, but if you rape two, three or even four...you will????

 

[singinforthelord]

what about the scripture where God says if you are lukewarm (not on fire, nor cold in the Lord) he will spew you out of his mouth. If you are saved and get lax, and "willful sin" you become luke warm in God. When he says spew that is a forceful spit something like a power barf if you will. It makes him sick to his stomach for someone to get lukewarm. If he will spew you out of his mouth, I don't see you being able to enter into heaven. He will not allow it. So even without the scripture of Ezekiel 3:20 I believe Revelations pretty much puts an end to once saved always saved

 

[Doug45]

So, you can commit murder? Is one innocent life less then say....five?????

An example to check this; if you rape one woman you will not loose your salvation, but if you rape two, three or even four...you will????

There are none here that can answer this question. It was simply put forth to agitate and bother those of us who believe that a person could walk away from the Lord. Godzchild knows that we cannot answer it within the framework of how she has posed this question.

The question can only be answered uniquely for an individual and it is answerable only by the Judge who makes that decision, i.e. God Himself. There are no definitive answers in all of the scripture as far as I can tell. That's why this question is more a bait to entrap than it is query that points toward a revelation from God. IMO She's not looking for an answer.

Godzchild is, as a result, diviscive with this question. Will you follow her steps too?

Doug

 

[AzuRee]

God is Love .... God's love for us is infinite, that is why God keeps forgiving each and every sin ... if we really repent though! You can't just keep commiting sins, saying "oh yes, God will forgive me"

We live our lives as best as we can ... then it's up to him.

 

[Godzchild]

There are none here that can answer this question. It was simply put forth to agitate and bother those of us who believe that a person could walk away from the Lord. Godzchild knows that we cannot answer it within the framework of how she has posed this question.

So rather than admit that you can't answer the question, you would rather question my integrity.

The purpose of this thread is to examine the concept of 'losing one's salvation' and/or falling away. Now the very concept in itself suggests that one can undo the work of God, since it's by God's power through Jesus Christ we are saved in the first place. Now I asked a simple question - how much sin do we have to commit to undo the work of God? To which no one can answer without being contentious with the very fact that it is indeed the work of God that we are saved. Now having done this, it is my hope that there are those of you who are willing to swallow their pride for a moment and question the possibility that they may actually be wrong.

If I can get one person questioning, which in turn forces them to turn to their bibles and see for themselves, that they are kept by the power of God and not by their own power...then this thread wasn't a waste.

But thank you for judging me as harshly as you have, I only hope and pray that you too, take a look at what the bible says about God's preservation and how he preserves and keeps his saints until the day of redemption

 

[Doug45]

So rather than admit that you can't answer the question, you would rather question my integrity.

First of all, I have said on several occasions that no one can answer the question. That includes me. If you need me to say those words, then I cannot answer your question. I am also saying that because no one can answer the question that you pose and that it is really outside of our purview with respect to seeking a quantitative answer, that it is mute.

Integrity has to do with singularity and internal unity of a person. Your question is one of integrity from your point of view. I am simply questioning the logic by which you come to that conclusion since there are a number of scriptures that must be overlooked in order to come to that conclusion. I am questioning the motive for asking a mute question.

The purpose of this thread is to examine the concept of 'losing one's salvation' and/or falling away. Now the very concept in itself suggests that one can undo the work of God, since it's by God's power through Jesus Christ we are saved in the first place. Now I asked a simple question - how much sin do we have to commit to undo the work of God? To which no one can answer without being contentious with the very fact that it is indeed the work of God that we are saved. Now having done this, it is my hope that there are those of you who are willing to swallow their pride for a moment and question the possibility that they may actually be wrong.

The consideration that it is impossible to lose our salvation in anyway cuts across the many warnings and positions of many NT authors. Many have presented those scriptures receiving little or no rebutal except to insist that your question be answered in a quantitative manner. Again this answer cannot be given quantitatively by any human being because it is the decision of the Judge, Himself.

If I can get one person questioning, which in turn forces them to turn to their bibles and see for themselves, that they are kept by the power of God and not by their own power...then this thread wasn't a waste.

I don't think anyone here has made the statment that they are keeping themselves. I don't think anyone has said that God doesn't keep us. What we have said is that in order to benefit from HIs keeping power, we must walk in harmony with Him rather than in rebellion to Him. And that if we walk in rebellion, there is at least the possability of falling away from our faith as described by many scriptures.

But thank you for judging me as harshly as you have, I only hope and pray that you too, take a look at what the bible says about God's preservation and how he preserves and keeps his saints until the day of redemption

If I were to judge or condemn you, there would be a punishment involved. So often we hide behind that term 'judge'. In my opinion, I have only evaluated your logic, found it wanting in light of the scripture and encouraged others not to follow your approach because it is diviscive rather than really in pursuit of truth. You have 'truth' and want to insist that we all come to the same 'truth'.

By the way, I may be entirely wrong theologically on this point. But I would like to make you aware of the fact that this type of approach reminds me too much of manipulation for me to take it seriously and therefore bolsters my belief to the contrary conclusion. But I am only one.

Blessings,

Doug

 

[mysparrow]

we cannot LOSE salvation, however , as it was a free gift , we can choose to throw it away , and yes there are scriptures for that. The word tells you of reprobates, a reprobate is someone who once knew and was saved, Jesus himself said no one who has put his hand to the plow and looks back is
fit for the kingdom of God . No liars, blasphemers, idolators, sexual perversion, etc, will enter heaven, if you want me to post scriptures i will of course. but i think you probably have read them all , anyways, as you seem to be well versed in the word.

The bottom line is , if someone feels they should be careful of their life in order to live a Godly one pleasing to God how is that a wrong thing? I used to believe osas, and in reading and studying over the past 22 years , and much prayer , God has shown me that he did indeed seal my spirit, but it is with the PROMISE of salvation, IF i abide in him. and that is scriptural as well. Now you will believe as you will, and so will i , this is just my belief according to what i have been shown in the word , my opinion and 2 dollars might get you a good cup of coffee at starbucks !

 

[Godzchild]

So rather than admit that you can't answer the question, you would rather question my integrity.

First of all, I have said on several occasions that no one can answer the question. That includes me

If you need me to say those words, then I cannot answer your question. I am also saying that because no one can answer the question that you pose and that it is really outside of our purview with respect to seeking a quantitative answer, that it is mute.

That's not true someone CAN answer the question and so can you! The answer is very simple. Do you want me to answer it for you?

Integrity has to do with singularity and internal unity of a person. Your question is one of integrity from your point of view. I am simply questioning the logic by which you come to that conclusion since there are a number of scriptures that must be overlooked in order to come to that conclusion. I am questioning the motive for asking a mute question.

I have not overlooked ANY SCRIPTURE. The question isn't mute and I told you my motive. The fact that you feel you can't answer the question doesn't mean that nobody else can. But I highly doubt you can't answer it, I feel that you don't want to answer it - but I could be wrong. But for your stance to be correct, you would have to overlook a lot of scripture as well.

The consideration that it is impossible to lose our salvation in anyway cuts across the many warnings and positions of many NT authors.

No it doesn't. The warnings fit in very snuggly as matter of fact.

Many have presented those scriptures receiving little or no rebutal except to insist that your question be answered in a quantitative manner. Again this answer cannot be given quantitatively by any human being because it is the decision of the Judge, Himself.

There is nothing to rebut. Those scriptures fit into the "Preservation of the saints aka OSAS" doctrine. But you can't see that!

I don't think anyone here has made the statment that they are keeping themselves.

They don't have to

I don't think anyone has said that God doesn't keep us.

If you believe that you can lose or walk away from your salvation then the logical conclusion is that you dont' believe that God keeps you from falling.

What we have said is that in order to benefit from HIs keeping power, we must walk in harmony with Him rather than in rebellion to Him.

In other words - you keep yourself! Can't you see how you've contradicted yourself?

And that if we walk in rebellion, there is at least the possability of falling away from our faith as described by many scriptures.

Then you don't understand the concept of God keeping us from falling. The bible speaks of this as well.

If I were to judge or condemn you, there would be a punishment involved.

So often we hide behind that term 'judge'. In my opinion, I have only evaluated your logic, found it wanting in light of the scripture and encouraged others not to follow your approach because it is diviscive rather than really in pursuit of truth. You have 'truth' and want to insist that we all come to the same 'truth'.

First of all - you ARE JUDGING. Second of all you also what all to come to the same 'truth' - don't deny it.

By the way, I may be entirely wrong theologically on this point. But I would like to make you aware of the fact that this type of approach reminds me too much of manipulation for me to take it seriously and therefore bolsters my belief to the contrary conclusion. But I am only one.

That's your problem - not mine!