How much should Christian "fight"?

[PatrickM]

Having had my share of spirited debate here at CF regarding a plethora of subjects both spiritual and political, it sometimes leaves me feeling empty spiritually.

I've been meditating on the main social "civil wars" being waged today, such as abortion, gay marriages and gay rights in general. I am of the strong conviction that these issues are definitely addressed in God's word. This has cause me to desire to rise up and defend what God says on these issues.

But now, as I ponder eternity and God's overall plan, I ask myself, and the large, opinionated CF family, how much does effort does God want us to put forth in "social" issues? Can we change God's plan for this earth, if He indeed does have a larger picture?

Aside from "opinions", does the Word address how much we should be battling the world with respect to these social issues?

 

[Gary777]

Having had my share of spirited debate here at CF regarding a plethora of subjects both spiritual and political, it sometimes leaves me feeling empty spiritually.

I've been meditating on the main social "civil wars" being waged today, such as abortion, gay marriages and gay rights in general. I am of the strong conviction that these issues are definitely addressed in God's word. This has cause me to desire to rise up and defend what God says on these issues.

But now, as I ponder eternity and God's overall plan, I ask myself, and the large, opinionated CF family, how much does effort does God want us to put forth in "social" issues? Can we change God's plan for this earth, if He indeed does have a larger picture?

Aside from "opinions", does the Word address how much we should be battling the world with respect to these social issues?

I think it is really clear from many passages of scripture and in jesus' training and commandment to us to "disciple the nations" that we actually have been given orders and authority to change the world in theses social issues. But i think the way or the means we are supposed to do it with are not so much in politics etc, but stepping in to the ministry of Jesus and doing the stuff. If we can change the hearts of men trought repentance anf faith in the gospel trough the declaration and demonstration of the kingdom of jesus, then politics and social issues would line up to the law of god as a fruit of it.

 

[PatrickM]

Thanks, Gary. I am not being flippant here, as I am searching for heart-felt answers. And I can tell your's is one.

I think it is really clear from many passages of scripture and in jesus' training and commandment to us to "disciple the nations" that we actually have been given orders and authority to change the world in theses social issues. But i think the way or the means we are supposed to do it with are not so much in politics etc, but stepping in to the ministry of Jesus and doing the stuff. If we can change the hearts of men trought repentance anf faith in the gospel trough the declaration and demonstration of the kingdom of jesus, then politics and social issues would line up to the law of god as a fruit of it.

I absolutely agree with your last sentence. I do believe our great commission is to disciple the nations. And the results will be change from the inside out.

My thoughts were promted by my state's primary elections today. I have been receiving a number of spam regarding vote for this or that, or vote for him or her.

I was just wondering if God's will can be done, be it by His making the numbers come out as He desires? Does this sound blasphemous?

 

[Protestant Minister]

Upon reflection,it won't seem at all surprising that debates with what you call the "CF family" have left you feeling "spiritually empty."Sure guess that's a message from the Holy Spirit isn't it?Sure looks like the Holy Spirit didn't like the debate doesn't it?Debate creates anxiety and anger and usually some level of hate.In fact just yesterday I was contacted by someone who had a heart attack after a "Christian" debate.Why are there debates going on in a Christian forum?Jesus and His disciples never debated.They presented the truth and then tried to flee the stone throwing while they turned the other cheek.Debate is something Satan loves Christians to do,and it is hardly just bad luck that satanists are allowed to register as part of the "CF family."
Some limited moral issue battles can be justified if they stay well within Jesus' "love your neighbor" rule,but most moral campaigns attract hateful people.The anti-abortion movement is a good example.While so strongly claiming they are trying to protect the dignity of human life,many of these same people turn around and strongly advocate the wholesale murder committed through war and capitol punishment.The only times Jesus became angry is when he encountered hypocrites. So here's an example of how the abortion battle should and should not be waged:A.Stand outside abortion clinics for hours every day shouting and screaming judgemental and condemning statements or B.Work on a fund raising campaign to support Christian pro-life counseling centers.These centers which conduct free pregnancy testing need alot of support.Some of them are now trying to purchase ultra-sound machines so that pregnant women can see their babies moving and growing inside them.THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS CHRISTIANS TO FIGHT ABORTIION.These ultra-sound machines are extremely effective in softening the hearts and changing the minds of potential baby killers.

 

[Trish1947]

In Hebrews when we read the hall of faith, We see in Chapter 11 v.33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wroght righteousness, abtained promises stopped the mouth of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned the flight the armies of the aliens. So Gods kingdom covers alot of ground. Even the overthrow of evil. I think no matter where we are in time, we're to stand for what is right. In what you believe, and its done mostly in prayer and supplication to God, and he will use armies if he has to. Look at WW11 and other wars, evil is subdued. He will use everything available to him to overcome evil. The earth is the Lords and the fulness thereof. We cant weaken in what we believe about what the kingdom of God consists of. We're not supposed to give up. Remember He said "however when I come shall I find faith on the earth? His kingdom will prevail, no matter how bad it might look. We are to remain faithful to Him and His kingdom it will be established.

 

[Jim B]

So, how does these words of Christ fit into the mix of this thread?

John 18.36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

 

[PatrickM]

Upon reflection,it won't seem at all surprising that debates with what you call the "CF family" have left you feeling "spiritually empty."Sure guess that's a message from the Holy Spirit isn't it?Sure looks like the Holy Spirit didn't like the debate doesn't it?

Thank you for "pointing" this out to me

Debate creates anxiety and anger and usually some level of hate.In fact just yesterday I was contacted by someone who had a heart attack after a "Christian" debate.Why are there debates going on in a Christian forum?Jesus and His disciples never debated. They presented the truth and then tried to flee the stone throwing while they turned the other cheek.

Do you mean as when Jesus called the Pharisees "brood of vipers", or "white-washed tombs"?

These are examples of standing for the faith. My question is regarding the "social civil war" we as a nation are embarking on.

The anti-abortion movement is a good example.While so strongly claiming they are trying to protect the dignity of human life,many of these same people turn around and strongly advocate the wholesale murder committed through war and capitol punishment.The only times Jesus became angry is when he encountered hypocrites.

Careful here. You're close to starting a “debate” with that "war and capital punishment" statement.

P.S. Everyone, pleeeeeeze don't start with up these here!!! There are myriads of other thread out there for you to "share" your opinions.

So here's an example of how the abortion battle should and should not be waged:A.Stand outside abortion clinics for hours every day shouting and screaming judgemental and condemning statements or B.Work on a fund raising campaign to support Christian pro-life counseling centers.These centers which conduct free pregnancy testing need alot of support.Some of them are now trying to purchase ultra-sound machines so that pregnant women can see their babies moving and growing inside them.THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS CHRISTIANS TO FIGHT ABORTIION.These ultra-sound machines are extremely effective in softening the hearts and changing the minds of potential baby killers.

What a great point! My wife worked for such a clinic for years, and when California (the most pro-abortion state in the union) tightened its requirements for workers there, she went back to school and is about to receive her RN. She will be able to work at our local center and do everything the state has been trying to have stopped!

Also, this ultra-sound idea is awesome! However, be careful, as with CA, many states may require RN’s to administer this.

Thanks for this great idea, ProtestantMinister! I am actually going to get started on this!

 

[PatrickM]

So, how does these words of Christ fit into the mix of this thread?

John 18.36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Uh, er, are you sure that word "fight" is in the original Greek? (hint, it is!)

Thanks, Jim. In the heat of the "sharing", I, more often than I should, forget these words of Jesus!

 

[Trish1947]

So, how does these words of Christ fit into the mix of this thread?

John 18.36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

I dont think God expects our Children to live in the muck and mire of filth. And its done by prayer and supplication.. and mostly will be done one convert at a time. The rest if we're praying about He will take care of.

 

[PatrickM]

And its done by prayer and supplication.. and mostly will be done one convert at a time. The rest if we're praying about He will take care of.

True, Trish. Perhaps I'm trying to fight on the wrong field?

 

[Trish1947]

True, Trish. Perhaps I'm trying to fight on the wrong field?

When Jesus said "whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound it Heaven. If you dont like what you see as far as rightousness, this is a clue of what to do, I would think. I dont want homosexuality taught as a alternate lifestyle, I dont want them marrying each other, I dont want my grandchildren having this teaching pounded into their heads, I dont want them passing laws for abomination. So can we bind it in Jesus name? I think we have scripture backing this up. Listen what is more precious to the Lord than a child? I think if we really believe, this can be stopped through prayer. I'm not praying this for myself. But help us Jesus, the children!! Who's going to stand in the gap for them?

 

[enoch son]

Brothers and sisters how do you fight the will of God? Is not the things He said would come to past, not come to past? If you fight in the natural you will lose. But we have won in the spiritual! One needs to fight on the right ground or better yet in the heavenly places we have been seated in.

 

[PatrickM]

When Jesus said "whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound it Heaven. If you dont like what you see as far as rightousness, this is a clue of what to do, I would think. I dont want homosexuality taught as a alternate lifestyle, I dont want them marrying each other, I dont want my grandchildren having this teaching pounded into their heads, I dont want them passing laws for abomination. So can we bind it in Jesus name? I think we have scripture backing this up. Listen what is more precious to the Lord than a child? I think if we really believe, this can be stopped through prayer. I'm not praying this for myself. But help us Jesus, the children!! Who's going to stand in the gap for them?

I feel the same way. And I like your last two sentences. As I have just been informed of my future grandchild's gender (a girl!), your words have struck me.

Without, truly, trying to sound as if I'm debating, haven't we been doing just what you suggested already? If we have been praying to "bind these evils" (and I agree with everything you listed), doesn't it seem to be getting worse, though, and not better? I don't know.

Perhaps we could also pray as Jesus did in John 17:15, "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one"?

Blessings.

 

[Trish1947]

Without, truly, trying to sound as if I'm debating, haven't we been doing just what you suggested already? If we have been praying to "bind these evils" (and I agree with everything you listed), doesn't it seem to be getting worse, though, and not better? I don't know.

Sure, ever notice if you want God to affect someones life, or something changed, their life
or the change seems to just get worse? Ever heard the phase, "be careful what you pray for, you just might get it??.. well lets put up with God stirring the pot.To me God is working, they are getting madder, more persistant, more demanding, This is a war, and the enemy is mad.

 

[PatrickM]

Sure, ever notice if you want God to affect someones life, or something changed, their life
or the change seems to just get worse. Ever heard the phase, "be careful what you pray for, you just might get it??.. well lets put up with God stirring the pot.To me God is working, they are getting madder, more persistant, more demanding, This is a war, and the enemy is mad.

Very good point, actually. Perhaps getting these situations out in the open will stir up the population! Thanks.

As a footnote to your point, my daughter's apartment caught fire a couple of months back. No one's fault, just old wiring. She was praying to have a situation cleared up between her two female roommates.

Viola! No one was hurt, no property damage, the firefighters were great! And she received some insurance money, enough to get a new apartment with new (female) roommates!

God does, indeed work in mysterious ways!

 

[Trish1947]

Very good point, actually. Perhaps getting these situations out in the open will stir up the population! Thanks.

As a footnote to your point, my daughter's apartment caught fire a couple of months back. No one's fault, just old wiring. She was praying to have a situation cleared up between her two female roommates.

Viola! No one was hurt, no property damage, the firefighters were great! And she received some insurance money, enough to get a new apartment with new (female) roommates!

God does, indeed work in mysterious ways!

Amen!! Nothing is to hard for God.! When you pray, get ready for change. And be willing to put up with the "appearance" of defeat.. It's just an "appearence", nothing more.

 

[dsdumpling]

IMHO, this verse is very poignant to me when debating.

Ephesians 6
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[Trish1947]

Brothers and sisters how do you fight the will of God? Is not the things He said would come to past, not come to past? If you fight in the natural you will lose. But we have won in the spiritual! One needs to fight on the right ground or better yet in the heavenly places we have been seated in.

Enoch son, it is a spiritual warfare. I'm standing in the gap for my children. Those that know who they are in Christ, have put on the spiritual armour. Praise God!!

 

[PatrickM]

Thanks, all of you , you're great!

 

[LuxPerpetua]

I'm traveling this same road myself, as you well know. I usually try to stay out of divisive threads but when someone calls you a name, twists your words around, and then wants you to apologize to them . . . well . . . it is an effective but difficult lesson in patience, forgiveness, and love. It's not easy, by any means.

In general I think that Christianity itself would look a lot better to the world if we could stop fighting with each other and use that energy to spread the news of salvation. Maybe that's asking too much, though.