How much knowledge required, if any?

[Cajun Huguenot]

I'm not so sure Paul can be used as a defense here. He was already educated in these things prior to becoming "saved," which I am sure was planned by God when He chose Paul to do the job he had for him to do. I agree with LittleLambChild, that the Scriptures never instruct us to educate ourselves in such things, but rather just the opposite. Paul was a special person with a special job, and I am sure God has some of the same even today. (Not apostles, but you know what I mean.)

Paul and John both use Greek thinking (word and phrases) to bring the Gospel to the Greeks. Paul was all things to all men.

WE have a clear example of Paul using Greek philosophy to preach to Greeks. If you are not called upon to preach to Greeks, than you have no need of Greek Philosophy. If you are not called upon to preach to Taoists than you have no need to understandin g Oriental philosophy, but if you are called by God to preach to these people, than it is a good thing to study their culture and thinking. If you do not do so, you will not be able to be all things to them.

This is not an either or situation. IF you are Joe are Sally American, living in the suburbs, than you really have no need to study other peoples cultures, religions and philosophies. But if you are missionary to Asia, you do need these things, so you can use them to preach the Gospel as the Apostles John and Paul did.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[kimlva]

Paul and John both use Greek thinking (word and phrases) to bring the Gospel to the Greeks. Paul was all things to all men.

WE have a clear example of Paul using Greek philosophy to preach to Greeks. If you are not called upon to preach to Greeks, than you have no need of Greek Philosophy. If you are not called upon to preach to Taoists than you have no need to understandin g Oriental philosophy, but if you are called by God to preach to these people, than it is a good thing to study their culture and thinking. If you do not do so, you will not be able to be all things to them.

This is not an either or situation. IF you are Joe are Sally American, living in the suburbs, than you really have no need to study other peoples cultures, religions and philosophies. But if you are missionary to Asia, you do need these things, so you can use them to preach the Gospel as the Apostles John and Paul did.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I think that is kinda what I said in my first reply, only with fewer words.

 

[Elderone]

U.S. Treasury agents learn all there is to know about genuine U.S. currency, they do not study counterfeit. I believe, as Christians we need to know as much as possible about the Bible so we are able to refute the scripture twisting the cultists will try to pull on us, in public or when they show up at our door.

In witnessing situations, the unbeliever will ask questions and the cultist will make statements. At that point I will know what they both believe without taking time away from the genuine to study the fake..

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

U.S. Treasury agents learn all there is to know about genuine U.S. currency, they do not study counterfeit. I believe, as Christians we need to know as much as possible about the Bible so we are able to refute the scripture twisting the cultists will try to pull on us, in public or when they show up at our door.

In witnessing situations, the unbeliever will ask questions and the cultist will make statements. At that point I will know what they both believe without taking time away from the genuine to study the fake..

We are not simply called to be able to identify counterfeits. If that is our calling than there is no reason to study anything else.

Some are called to bring the reality to the to ones with the couterfeit currency. Those Christians need to be able to demonstrate to the one holding the bill whats wrong with it and he needs to be able to demonstrate what is wrong.

Was Paul wrong to know and use the words of Epimenides? Was John wrong for knowing the Greek use of Logos and then turn it to the advantage of proclaiming the Gospel? NO.

When an army prepares for battle it trains its men who to use the weapons they are to use, but a good Army also studies the weopons of the enemy.

When I was in the Navy I spent a lot of time studying the Soviet navy's ships, planes, submarines and weapons. Our troops in Iraq are certainly trained in the tactics and weapons of their enemy.

If you are not a soldier or marine in Iraq, than you don't need that knowledge, but if you are its vital that you have that knowledge. Knowing only your own tactics will hinder you from being effective when fighting the enemy.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[rmwilliamsll]

U.S. Treasury agents learn all there is to know about genuine U.S. currency, they do not study counterfeit.

i think that this is an urban myth and an old wives tale.

from: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos/

The real lesson is that counterfeit coins such as the above can be interesting to study, and studying them can protect yourself from becoming victim.

Look at the money you receive. Compare a suspect note with a genuine note of the same denomination and series, paying attention to the quality of printing and paper characteristics. Look for differences, not similarities.

from: http://www.secretservice.gov/money_detect.shtml


the statement that you do not need to study the counterfeits but only the real thing is an exaggeration to the point of being wrong. the secret service webpages on counterfeit currency are full of examples of counterfeits, showing details and comparisons. the essays online talking about detecting counterfeits talk about the details of the false paper and wrong inks and missing features. in fact, to detect counterfeits you do have to study the counterfeits.

in the history of the church, oftentimes orthodoxy was not defined until after a battle with heresy and heterodox teachings was occurring. certainly the canon is a good example of this, marcion defined the first canon, not the orthodox, they defined in reaction to, in a defensive movement to outflank marcion. often we don't even know the details of what we believe until we encounter those who disagree, and as a result study to combat and refute them, defining the theology far more carefully then was the case before the encounter.

perhaps, as has been pointed out, the doctrine of calling is a partial solution to this. that God calls us to different endeavors and as a result we study and learn different pieces of the counterfeit world out there but that all of us are called to study the real thing. but i think we need to be careful not to listen to the siren call that the faith contains all the truth in the world and as a result we do not need anything else from the world but what is provided for us in Scripture. The Scriptures are true, but they are not exhaustive, nor in a meanwhile sense complete. but rather are embedded for us in a cultural matrix that requires knowledge of the world to understand them rightly. for a quick example, i do not know where Jerusalem is, despite it's importance in the Bible, without access to an atlas and perhaps a history book.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

After reading your post I think you missed my point. First I did not say that "all evangelists must study false religions." I said a missionary to a people who hold to a false religion needs to know about that religion.

It is certainly possible that Paul only new the simple quote from Epimenides and nothing else, but I find that very unlikely. Also you forget John's use of and hijacking of the Greek word Logos. John does not "just use it as a Greek word. Almost every word in his writings is Greek. John took the very important philososphiic word (and he clearly knows its philosophical implications) and then uses it to present the Gospel.

As you quote Paul, "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel." And it is clear that in preaching the Gospel he used the words of Epimenides. No one said that we are to "providing an intellectual critique of Greek religious/philosophical thought" or an intellectual critique of any othr religion or philosophy. What we have said is, if you are going to preach the Gospel to those of another religion it is good (and right) to know about what those people believe.

Why is this such a hard thing?

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Elderone]

My question is: must we be well acquainted with their beliefs in order to witness? My thoughts were, 'NO' but I wanted to know what others think. I prefer my time being spent in reading scripture, knowing more about the bible, not becoming more familiar with other religions in hopes of knowing how to confront their error.

This quote from post #4 asked for peoples thoughts. And my, my, how two of the young turks got all exercised when mine didn't agree with theirs.

As my grandmother and mother use to say, "Who died and left you boss?"

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

This quote from post #4 asked for peoples thoughts. And my, my, how two of the young turks got all exercised when mine didn't agree with theirs.

As my grandmother and mother use to say, "Who died and left you boss?"

Hello Elderone,

I am not encharge of anyone but myself and my family. Neither my civil or ecclesiastical authority does not go beyond that point. (Thank God)

We disagree and that is ok. There is certainly nothing wrong with studing the Bible alone. We all agree (I think) that the Scriptures must be first and foremost in our studies and depending on your calling you may not have the God given desire to study other cultures and their believe systems. That is ok too.

This thread began when McW. asked, "My question is: must we be well acquainted with their beliefs in order to witness?" The short concise answer to that question is no, and that is because of the word "must."

That is why added

If you are a missionary to Muslims, than you need to know it backwards and forwards. You need to know it as well are better than most Muslims.

If you live around Muslims, than it would be good to have some basic knowledge. But if you have little or no contact with them then thre is no reason to look at it at all.

It think that is correct and fail to see how it can be controversial. I seems that rmwilliamsll and I hold the minority position of those who have posted, and that is ok as well. I hope I have not offended you are anyone else with my posts. I have simply been trying to explain why I see these issue as I do.

I appreciate being called young (even if it is joined with the word Turk). I don't often get referred to as young anymore.

We disagree and if I had the authority to do so, I would grant you permission to differ with me at anytime you please . BUT I have to advise you that this will put you the wrong side almost every time . (That is supposed to be funny, so please laugh now .)

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

This is not hard.. there simply is no specific Scriptural command to study false religions. None. In fact, Scripture is quite plain that we are to have nothing to do with false teachers.

There is no written exception provided in Scripture which states that it is permissible to study false teaching in order to witness to disciples of false teachers. None.

The issue in this thread was whether or not the study of false religions is appropriate for believers. The apostle Paul did not need to know a thing about Greek mythology in order to recognize the idolatry of their false worship.

This is "hard" I suppose because for some reason you refuse to deal with the plain sense of Scriptures that deal with this issue. You continue to "infer" from Paul's one and only quote from a Greek poet.. (and the fact that John wrote in Greek) that not only did these two apostles study Greek religion and philosophy.. but from this single inference we should therefore study false religions in following their example. You simply have no solid Scriptural evidence to prove these points.

Sound Biblical interpretation always requires that we take the plain and obvious teaching of Scripture above any inferred or seemingly implied application.

This is not hard. We must obey the Scriptural command to keep ourselves from false religious teaching. We do not require knowledge of their false beliefs in order to share the truth of the gospel.

Do I have to know about the tenants of Satanism in order to preach the gospel truth ? No. Do I have to know the bizarre peculiarities of the thousands of religions that enslave people in order to be a true witness of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? No. All I need to know is the truth. That is why Paul's pastoral instructions to his son in the faith Timothy to preach the word of God do not include any instructions to study the beliefs of false religions.

LittleLambChild

LLC,

Thanks for your reply to my posts. I think we are at an impasse (at least for now), but let me say just a bit more anyway.

I was mistaken earlier when I said that Paul quoted Epimenides while speaking on Mars' Hill in Acts 17. He actually quotes the Cilician which is a poem of Aratus. Paul actually quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:2 and he quotes Menander in I Cor. 15:33. Paul shows in his writtings that he has more than a cursory kowledge of pagan Greek philosophy (as does the Apostle John) and he uses that knowledge.

You may hold to your opinion (though I think it is mistaken). I will follow what I believe to be the example of Paul and John when I deal with those of other (non-Christian) cultures. THese Apostles clearly knew a good deal about some intricate aspects of pagan Greek philosphy and they used that knowledge to witness Jesus Christ to the Greeks.

I will follow what I believe to be their examples, until it is proven that I am mistaken. I have to warn you that the last time someone proved me to be in error was way back on the morning of Nov. 27, 2006.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

My friend,

It is not my desire to prove anyone right or wrong here. I am sure we both desire the truth to be clear and certain. And for me such proof requires unequivocally that the origin of that truth be the infallible, inspired Word of God.

My deepest desire here is to warn with all my heart and soul against the mistaken idea that is out there that it is necessary for Christians to study the writings of false religion in order to be good witnesses. As I have stated and will repeat again, no Scripture specifically commands such study. And despite your inferences from Paul's extremely rare quotations of ancient literary works, there is still no Scriptural command for such study.. while Scriptural warnings of dangerous false teachings abound.

Your hyperbole that these few and minor instances document the Apostles vast knowledge of pagan Greek philosophy stretches the bound of reason. And to say that such knowledge is required to witness is Scripturally unsound as Paul clearly states in 1 Corinthians 1 which was quoted in my previous post.

Further, if you read the entire text of the New Testament Scriptures the number of quotations from the Old Testament abound. Clearly the Apostles along with our Lord Jesus Christ depended on the Word of God.. not pagan literature.. to expound the truth of the gospel.

I beg you to reconsider your defense of this unsound practice of studying the false religions in order to witness to the true faith. The study of error for any reason is always dangerous.. and the study of truth is always God honoring. It is the true knowledge of the Word of God that is our lamp and the light to our feet. All other sources of human wisdom are darkness and sure to make us stumble.

Dare I hope for a second recurrence of the events of the morning of November 27, 2006.

Your servant in Christ,

LittleLambChild

LLC,

Thank you for your sincere concern. I do appreciate it very much.

In your response you make a few errors as to what I wrote in previous posts. You write, "to say that such knowledge is required to witness." First, I never said that and I agree that it would be unsound had I said that.

If you look at my post on the Heart vs Mind thread you will see that I can't possibly believe such a thing. My grandfather was an illiterate man and yet he proclaimed the Gospel with both his actions and words.

I am no expert in Greek Philosophy, but I have read enough of it to see it used in John's Gospel, as have countless very real and very good theologians (I am no theologian). My point above is nothing new. Christian missionaries have been learning other cultures and beliefs for a long, long time.

This is why men like Lit Sen Chang write books like his Asia's Religions: Christianity's Momentous Encounter with Paganism and it is why solid Reformed Seminaries, like Westminster, carry it and use it (the link is to the Westminster Seminary bookstore). Chang was a believer in Asian philosophy and a professor of Toaism, Confucianism and Buddhism before his conversion to the true faith of Jesus Christ. His books are valuable as a witness to these pagan peoples and to folks like myself, who desire to understand their thinking.

You can dismiss the fact that Paul quotes pagan Greek philosophers and that he makes allusions to their beliefs as does John just because we are not explicitly told to understand the cultures we desire to witness to. Still, there are many things that are not explicit in the Scriptures that we believe. No where in the Scriptures do we see an example of women taking part in communion. The examples we have are of men only, yet we all believe that it is implicitly taught that women should be allowed to the Table (Do you agree?). No where in the Scriptures do we see the word Trinity explicitly used, but we certainly believe that it is taught.

I have been reading non-Christian beliefs for much of my adult Christian life (I will soon be 47) and it has been of good service to me when I have spoken with non-believers.

The Scriptures are paramount. No one has denied that. No one has said that every Christian (or even most) needs to read the writings of other belief systems, but I certainly believe that it is important for missionaries (which I am not) need to know about the beliefs of the people they are going to be witnessing to.

I am an odd Christian. I read the Church Fathers (thats weird enough), I also read Christians from the Middle Ages, the Reformation and those in between then and now. I read non-Christian peoples also including ancient Greek and Latin thinkers and modern non-Christians as well. I find all this interesting and useful for my ability to speak with Christians and non-Christians alike. I also have a couple of copies of the Quran (Koran) that I use from time to time.

Very few people read the stuff that I find interesting. I am an odd bird in these things, but they are not outside of what the Scriptures clearly demonstrate (though with no explicit command).

Again I do thank you for your concern and wish you well. I belief it is the Lord who gave me these "likes" in my reading and studies. I way all things by the Word of God, which is the Bible the only infallible TRUTH.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[GLJCA]

We all acknowledge there is much heresy, error, and all things foreign to what we hold dear as gospel truth in scripture!

How educated do you feel one must be in various religions and their beliefs!
Can you support your belief with scripture?

I have given thought to this and am reluctant to study certain religions and unorthodox beliefs as I've always thought my time to be better spent concentrating on scriptural truth! If one knows scriptural truth, sound doctrine well, then does it not become evident when in contact with the slightest variation from that?

I'm interested in the principle here, not in bringing up and hashing out the various differences themselves.

I know I'm rambling on this but; can you show scripturally that we must be well taught and informed about various heretical variations or not?

I spent 13 years in Mexico working with a tribe of Indians. It would have been futile to try and teach them not knowing anything about their culture and religion. Language, Religion and Culture are closely tied together. To reach someone of another culture, religion, and or language without learning as much as possible about them would be useless.

I think it is very important to know what other people believe so that we can share the gospel with them so they can understand clearly.

GLJCA

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Wow.. are we polar opposites on this issue!

I would never allow a Koran or any other false religious document into my home under any circumstances.. nor would I ever study it or recommend to other believers that they study it.

wow.
one of the most interesting and profitable classes i ever had was introduction to the koran and the history of islam.

i never knew any Christian who took a stand like this.

Rather i've known people who think that this is God's world and everything in it belongs to God, and therefore look to find common grace in all things that they read. Not that all things are equally useful but that everyone lives in God's world and even if involuntarily reflect something of God's image in what they do and believe. It is this point of common grace, this being in God's world and in God's image that forms the point of contact with all unbelievers although the specifics may varying as to details, (and hence the necessity of understanding their beliefs) but they can not escape God and the demands of being in His image and beholding to Him for their very existence and for the ability to think and to write books.

but i'm sure there are lots of stands Christians take that i am unaware of. that is a problem of my sample size not a problem of whether or not it is a good position to take.

 

[kimlva]

Wow.. are we polar opposites on this issue!

I would never allow a Koran or any other false religious document into my home under any circumstances.. nor would I ever study it or recommend to other believers that they study it.

wow.
one of the most interesting and profitable classes i ever had was introduction to the koran and the history of islam.

i never knew any Christian who took a stand like this.

Rather i've known people who think that this is God's world and everything in it belongs to God, and therefore look to find common grace in all things that they read. Not that all things are equally useful but that everyone lives in God's world and even if involuntarily reflect something of God's image in what they do and believe. It is this point of common grace, this being in God's world and in God's image that forms the point of contact with all unbelievers although the specifics may varying as to details, (and hence the necessity of understanding their beliefs) but they can not escape God and the demands of being in His image and beholding to Him for their very existence and for the ability to think and to write books.

but i'm sure there are lots of stands Christians take that i am unaware of. that is a problem of my sample size not a problem of whether or not it is a good position to take.

Just for the record, I take the same stance as LLC. So now you know 2 of us.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Thanks again LLC,

THis too will be my final post on this thread. Once again, I want to say that I appreciate your concern, though I do believe it is seriously misguided.

GLGCA, the missionary who posted above made clear from his own personal training and experiance that what rmwilliamsll and have said are true to his experiance. It is also true that a great mean of God and Christian Scholar like Lit Sen Chang, who came to Christ from paganism, also see things our way. He was also professor at a Reformed Seminary.

So our position is a common one, and has been from ancient times. What surprised me is how much opposition to this view has been expressed here in a Reformed discussion site. I would have expected it in some other sites, but not here.

It is also clear from the reading of Scripture that the Apostles Paul and John were fairly well versed in Greek thought. and your quote from Scripture above (IMHO) is hardly a strong proof to buttress your own position.

I commend you and kimlva for your desires to study the Word of God (a desire we all share).

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[kimlva]

I commend you and kimlva for your desires to study the Word of God (a desire we all share).

I would just like to say, I appreciate your attitude in this, Kenith. After having been accused recently by professing Christian family members of thinking I am better than they because of my strong convictions about the Bible (and certain other things like halloween), and my desire to live those convictions, it is refreshing to hear a truly Christian response from someone who disagrees on certain things. (Don't anybody try to diagram that sentence!)

 

[edie19]

My pastor has a wonderful personal library - he has a great love for the Puritans and the Reformed teachers. Included in his library is the Torah, the Koran, the Roman Catholic Catechism. I know that he's studied them all too, and it comes in handy. My pastor is bi-vocational (we're still fairly new and pretty small so he holds another full-time job) and in his other job he meets a lot of Muslims. He can go back to Scripture and compare it to what the Koran says when he witnesses to them. According to David (my pastor) the Muslims have great respect for scholarship and appreciate the fact that he can discuss their teachings knowledgably.

Earlier this year our adult class at church we studied the Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses. To me, it makes sense to have at least a working knowledge of other religions - because then we can see where their false teachings come in. Otherwise, how do we show them what Christianity offers that false religions don't.

 

[arunma]

To me, it makes sense to have at least a working knowledge of other religions - because then we can see where their false teachings come in. Otherwise, how do we show them what Christianity offers that false religions don't.

Not to mention that this can also lead to a better understanding of the Scriptures. For example, learning about the beliefs of the Greek and Near Eastern peoples regarding the afterlife has helped me to understand the Biblical teachings on the afterlife. It is important to remember that while the Biblical authors taught a contrary doctrine to what the people of their times believed, they wrote in a certain cultural context. Understanding this context is very important to understanding the Bible.

 

[McWilliams]

The very term 'Evangelism' means 'Good News', signifying that we tell others of the good news of Christ and all that is involved thereof! It has no significance for my knowing the very details of another's lostness or the details of the individual sins or erroneous beliefs they have!
I have no need to study thievery, prostitution, the occult practices and all things foreign to God's truth but I definitely need to know Him and to make Him known!
Christ certainly had an advantage in that He reads hearts, whereas we share the truths of scripture with others, praying that they will come to see themself as a sinner, lost without a Savior, and come to faith and repentance!
I guess I would be both horrified and change churches if a study or LDS or JW or Islam was begun in my church! What extreme and gross contamination of the very church of God! I see such as a great departure from the purpose of the Church, to be involved in the study of such heresy!
I thank everyone for all input on this thread and it has been most informative to me! Thank you also for allowing me to express my own thoughts without rejection or censure! I welcome all other opinions and hopefully we all respect one another's continued journey into greater truths of His holy Word! Iron sharpens iron and as we progress we change; all of us! I plan to pursue this issue further with my own pastor and I am ready to reconsider if scriptural truth should so indicate the need!f Truth is my sole hope!

 

[edie19]

I want to be very clear here - when I say that we studied these things - each religion received 1 class worth of time (~1 hour). We looked at them historically, we compared what they had to say vs. what Scripture says. Everything was done with the utmost reverence for the truth of the Gospel message and to point out the heresy of the other religions. It isn't that they were being held up as viable alternatives.

I can't speak to the JW's, it has been too long since I've conversed with them - but the LDS and Muslims that I've spoken with are very knowledgable about their religion and often have a pretty decent working knowledge of Christianity. I believe it is important to know where their errors are in order to point out the truths of Christianity.

As an aside - I always keep a few extra copies of the London Baptist Confession on my bookshelf at home. That way, when the Mormons or JW's do come around wanting to share their literature I can offer them a good summation of doctrine in one small book.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Doctrines are not God: they are only a kind of map. But that map is based on the experience of hundreds of people who really were in touch with God. C.S. Lewis

If we take our doctrines into our hearts where they belong, they can cause upheavals of emotion and sleepless nights. This is far better than toying with academic ideas that never touch life. John Piper

Doctrinal preaching certainly bores the hypocrites; but it is only doctrinal preaching that will save Christ's sheep. J.I. Packer

If Christianity is really true, then it involves the whole man, including his intellect and creativeness. Christianity is not just "dogmatically" true or "doctrinally" true. Rather, it is true to what is there, true in the whole area of the whole man in all of life. Francis Schaeffer

Humility is the only state of mind in which to approach the Scriptures. The Spirit will teach the humble soul those things that make for his salvation and for a holy walk and fruitful service here below. And little else matters. A.W. Tozer

There is head knowledge, head and heart and just heart knowledge. In knowing God (not just about Him) the heart must be involved. A.W. Tozer

It is disciples of Christ we are to make (Matthew 28:19) not disciples of ourselves, our churches or our denominations. Granted that in discipling we can hardly avoid transmitting our own truth perspectives. Yet we ourselves must keep in mind, and those we disciple, that truth is greater than our understanding of it. A.W. Tozer