How much is too much?

[katylees]

its all too confusing i think, what can be done and what can't be done? no one knows for sure? ...or do they? - katy

 

[hotarugari]

You know, it's very confusing if you don't go to the Bible for an answer. Now the New Testament itself says to flee from sexual immorality, that is to have nothing to so with it.

Going from the Old Testament definition of sexual immorality, we know that we should not be having sexual relations with family members. We also know that we shouldn't be having sexual relations with anyone else outside of marriage. The Old Testament doesn't say it that way. No, instead they insist on stoning people who are sexually immoral outright, and fining people/or having them marry if there is some question in the matter.

So, you tell me. Does that sound confusing?

 

[Flames]

So you say that sex isn't just for reproduction, but it is for pleasure. Here is an argument:

1 Cor. 7:9
But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Contain -means Self-Control
Burn- To be on Fire, Burn

But if they do not have Self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.
Fire could either mean Hell or burning on the inside with passion.

The above is the basis for my argument.

Is pleasure inside marriage wrong? I don't think so, but sex inside marriage for pleasure indicates a weakness or lack of self control. Before the fall of Adam and Eve, It does not indicate that they had any kids. It is after they were driven out of God's presence that they had Cain. The first recorded birth. Why didn't they have any kids inside of the garden? Did they? Do you think if you walked with God and he was showing you all that he took pleasure in, that you would worry about pleasing your flesh? In heaven, it will be like it was in the garden before the fall. What has fleshly pleasure ever gotten anyone? Fleshly Pleasure(Sex) has gotten us Aids, Rape, Abortion, premarital sex, promiscuity...ect.
If we as a people would take pleasure in the things that God takes pleasure in, then we would not be concerned with the pleasures of this world. Here are some verses that show what God takes pleasure in.
1 cronicles 29:17 I know also, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of mine heart I have willingly offered all these things: and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, to offer willingly unto thee.

Ezra 10:11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

Psalm 5:4 For thou art not a God that hathpleasurein wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Psalm 35:27 (Takes pleasure in the prosperity of his servants)
Psalm 147:11 (Takes pleasure in those that fear him, in those that hope for his mercy)
Ezekial 18:23, 18:32, 33:11 (Takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked)
Luke 12:32 (It is his pleasure to give you the kingdom)
Eph. 1:5 (Pleasure in the predestined adoption)
Revelation 4:11 (All of his creation was created for his pleasure)

If we could grow into a people that took pleasure in what God takes pleasure and not be concerned with our selfish pleasures that are temporal, then we could really be a forcefully advancing people. I myself will be as one of those people talked about in 1 corithians 7:9. I will marry because I do not have good self control in the area of sexuality, but I think God finds more pleasure in the act of reproducing more men and women of God, then the act of humans getting off for their selfish needs. Sorry the post was so long, I look forward to intellectual replies.

 

[katylees]

i agree with u i think :S lots of writing there to take in but yer i agree - katy

 

[DaveKerwin]

Katy, be sure you are not being mislead.

As an ambassador for Jesus Christ, please listen to me, and trust what I am saying. The Bible says to avoid sexual immorality. Oral sex is sexually immoral if you are not married. So if you are not married, oral sex is sin.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Flames, you don't make any sense.

 

[Flames]

Dave, It makes perfect sense. Read it carefully. What do you not agree with from my last post? Do you know agree that we should be about what God takes pleasure in? I would love to know what you don't understand Dave.

P.S. I don't appreciate your assertation that my post didn't make sense. Just because a baby can't comprehend reading, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense overall. It just means that it doesn't make sense to the baby. You are the baby Dave. It doesn't make sense to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense overall.

 

[DaveKerwin]

What does your last post about pleasure have to do with "how far is too far?" You are off topic. If you say something on topic, I will respond to it. What you ought to do is actually make a point and support it. I say going too far is getting involved sexually (which includes manual and oral sex), I can explain further if you wish.

Since you are new around here, I will ignore your comments about being a baby.

 

[Flames]

What does your last post about pleasure have to do with "how far is too far?" You are off topic. If you say something on topic, I will respond to it. What you ought to do is actually make a point and support it. I say going too far is getting involved sexually (which includes manual and oral sex), I can explain further if you wish.

Since you are new around here, I will ignore your comments about being a baby.

Dave, I may be new, but you should do yourself a favor and read page 2 before you read page 3. This Topic is related, but you must read page 2 for the connection. I have made several valid points so far and provide scriptural bases for them. You have provided nothing but your opinion about what you think is right and wrong. I say going to far is going against what is scriptural and what the holy spirit shows as wrong. If that is a kiss or if that is holding hands. Not for me to decide. Dave, I didn't call you a baby, but you inferred that I called you this. I used an example of an ignorant baby and compared it to you in this one case regarding my post. I never said, Dave you are a baby or Dave you don't know the bible and you are a baby, Did I?

Just to recap this thread.
Oral Sex = Sex
no Oral Sex= Sexual immoraility, but different then Sex
no Sexual intercourse by Merriam Webster= gentital contact between individuals other then penetration
Yes, That is Merriam's definition, but what does the bible say.
Bible talks about Sex for Reproduction, not for pleasure
Oh so we can't have sex in marriage for pleasure, but only for reproduction
So you can only have sex when you want a kid...ect.
Then to my post about pleasure
All of this is a related post, and thus, on topic Dave. Then again, I guess it is up to you to decide what is relevant in a thread and what is not right? It does seem like your nature to know what is right and wrong and tell others what you think is right and wrong. Of course that is all I have seen you do in my little time being here.

 

[GirlForChrist]

getting to far is a big mistake, take it for me

 

[DaveKerwin]

Flames, re-read your own posts man. First you say oral sex is not sex, then you say it is, then you say its not, then you say it is. Make you mind up. Ever since you said how it is not sex because you can't get pregnant, I have questioned if there is any truth at all to what you say. So how about you make your mind up. And to quote you, you said "you are that baby dave" When someone says, Dave you are that baby, that is the same as saying, Dave you are a baby. Please, seriously, begin to make sense from this point on.

I am saying that oral sex IS sex. Anyone with a brain bigger than a mouse and figure that one out. God tells us that sex is for marriage.

1. Oral sex is "sex".
2. Having sex before marriage is sin.
3. Having oral sex is sex before marriage.
4. Therefore, oral sex before marriage is sin.


As a side note, please read song of solomon if you want to understand the pleasures behind sex. But we will not discuss that here since it is completely off topic.

Recap: Anything sexual should be avoided before marriage. Paul tells us to flee it, run from it. I believe this is a safe rule for christian dating: Have NO contact with sex organs. Ask God if he would allow you to kiss, snuggle, etc.

 

[Cragg]

Ok, after reading peoples stuff, and talking to some people (even non-christians) I agree that oral sex is a sin (I dont agree that its the same as sex, but its still a sin).

But

I still believe that anything 'before' oral sex, is perfectly ok but you should not run into it if you know you can't stop yourself from going further and getting into oral sex and even sex itself.

I'm still happy to go further than kissing, and untill recently that included oral sex. Myself personally I think that in most circumstances i can resist the temptation of going as far as oral sex now.

 

[Flames]

Flames, re-read your own posts man. First you say oral sex is not sex, then you say it is, then you say its not, then you say it is. QUOTE]
Lets see what I wrote:

1st Post
1.Well Oral sex is the same as sex except you can't get pregnant from it, so yes, mentally it may be the same, but physically different. God made sex for reproduction to fulfill the commandment of Reproduce and Multiply...Ect. So Oral sex is not sex because you can not get pregnant from it and thus reproduce. I do agree that it is Sexually Immoral and thus sin, but why seperate intercourse and Sexual Immorality into two categories, they are both sin. (Clearly stating that it is not sex)
2nd Post
2.You can't have sex without a possibility of pregnancy. Pre-sperm contains the same ingredients for pregnancy as everything else. From a scientific and physical standpoint, Oral sex cannot get you pregnant and thus is not sex. If you are talking about the heart, then yes anything sexually immoral can cause a soul tie to that person, but so can emotionalism. Telling somebody you love them and only want to be with them and everything else guys tell girls. Emotionalism can cause soul ties just like physical activity, yet we do not call soul ties sex do we. If anything, emotionalism to anybody other then the person your going to marry could be equated to rape of the heart. So Yes, Oral Sex could cause a connection of souls through an illegal boundary violation. From a scientific standpoint, it is not. It is actually called [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and so you cant use the argument that oral sex has the word sex in it so it must be sex.(Clearly saying that Oral Sex is not sex again)
3rd Post
3.
Youth Pastor,
I know you found your information on Merriam Webster and if you would have noted the date you may have kicked yourself. The date is 1799. When was the bible written again. I will give you a logical explanation using the bible. No the bible is not a dictionary. You chose a dictionary definition because you thought, well it must be right because it fits into the category because of the words under the definition. Well Here is my logical conclusion.
First, The bible was written before the first dictionary. With that being said, lets look at some scripture.
Genesis 1:22 The first verse referring to reproduction among animals.
Genesis 1:28 God tells man to reproduce and multiply. This scripture being the first implication about sex amongst Humans. You can't reproduce without sex. Genesis 4:1 is the first mention in the bible about Reproduction taking place. Cain is born.
The first mention after creation was to reproduce and multiply. To fill the earth. My argument is this:
1. You cannot reproduce without sex
2. The first mention of sex was for the purpose of Reproduction.
A. Sex then, should be defined by reproduction, not by merriam webster.
My conclusion is this. If Oral Sex could get you pregnant and cause reproduction, then I would agree that it is intercourse.
Humans were created for reproduction, not pleasure. It is assumed from Evolutionists that Humans had to be tricked to reproduce and that is the reason it evolved to be so pleasurable. I think that the bible is clear that Sex is for reproduction and not pleasure. The fact that sex is pleasurable has nothing to do with the purpose for it. Make Sense? (Is it making Sense yet Dave)
4th Post
4.Has to do with pleasure and not oral sex (nothing to say it is or isn't in this post.)

Wow Dave, I would love for you to explain to me how I was back and forth on this idea. It appears quite obvious that I had one stance. I can see how you could interpret my tangent regarding purity of the heart as an implication that I was back and forth, but that is if you are really digging to see it your way.

Ok Dave, if you want to be the baby, then be the baby. I guess you take everything literal then huh. " A bird doesn't know how to fly until prodded out of the nest. A bird was created to fly though. Dave you are that bird." Ok, so in this sentence, you must be a bird huh. *I hear Chirpping noises coming from Dave*

I am saying that oral sex IS sex. Anyone with a brain bigger than a mouse and figure that one out. God tells us that sex is for marriage.

1. Oral sex is "sex".
2. Having sex before marriage is sin.
3. Having oral sex is sex before marriage.
4. Therefore, oral sex before marriage is sin.

The average human brain is :
width = 140 mm
Average brain length = 167 mm
Average brain height = 93 mm
I guess your statement is A. A fallacy or B. Should not be taken literally. If I were Dave, I would assume that I have a brain the size of a mouse because I disagree with Daves Opinion.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Flames said... ...

Oral sex is not sex because you can not get pregnant from it

Oral sex= Sex

There ya go, that is what I am talking about. But now I wonder if you were trying to recap the whole thread. Either way I disagree with you entirely because of your false premise.

 

[YouthPastor]

Ok, after reading peoples stuff, and talking to some people (even non-christians) I agree that oral sex is a sin (I dont agree that its the same as sex, but its still a sin).

But

I still believe that anything 'before' oral sex, is perfectly ok but you should not run into it if you know you can't stop yourself from going further and getting into oral sex and even sex itself.

I'm still happy to go further than kissing, and untill recently that included oral sex. Myself personally I think that in most circumstances i can resist the temptation of going as far as oral sex now.

SO petting etc.. is ok? and "exploring" the other persons body is ok?

Do you think fondling your girlfriend is pleasing to God? Is getting hot and heavy as long as you do not have oral or v*ginal sex pleasing to God?

 

[Worship All Day]

i think everyone here is taking it in the wrong direction. it is not about "how far is too far." its not about where the line is to stop. purity is not a line. its not a line that we try to get as close to as possible. God does not want us to try and push the limits at all. He never designed for us to put ourselves as close to wrong as possible.

Does God ever say, "go ahead, get close to sin." ? i don't think he does. Phillippians 4:8-9 God doesn't want us to try and push the limits as to what is right and what is wrong. He clearly says, whatever is right, do it!

As for purity (I hope that's what we're really focusing on here) and its not being a line that we can dance around, God has a much better design than that. Why would He intend for us to awaken and struggle with our sexual desires...when He doesn't want us to sin, break our vows or want anything harmful for us? I believe that God's design is that purity is a direction, not a line. God calls us to not even play with fire. He knows we're better than that. He created us for things much better than that. God knows we CAN pursue purity, and leave behind our sinful desires. God didn't create this incredible self-thinking, self-deciding being to simply as, 'how far is too far?' and then try to get as close as possible to this.

2 Timothy 1:7 says it pretty clearly; "For God did not give you a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline."

God KNOWS we can do better! He calls us to a life of holiness, a life of purity, a life of sacrifice. I believe that God has called us to something greater than "how far is too far", He knows we are capable of it.

My girlfriend and I are courting right now, and have decided to keep kissing eachother, or anyone else if God calls us to marriage with another person, until marriage. We believe that God's call is much higher than drawing a line. I'd like to talk to you more about my past, and our relationship, just how much God has blessed us, because He is the center of all we do.

I have to agree with youthpastor in his saying that oral sex is wrong outside of marriage. like i said, purity is a direction not a line. so you shouldn't even worry about whether oral sex is sex...that shouldn't even be the issue here

 

[Worship All Day]

oh no!! haha i can't write at all!! "...My girlfriend and I are courting right now, and have decided to keep kissing eachother..."

haha, i got a good laugh out of that. let me RESTATE that:

we are saving kissing untill marriage, whether it ends up being for eachother, or even for another person. btw, i'm pretty darn sure i will marry this girl, to be perfectly honest. not that it is up to me, God always has the say in all my decisions, but if it was up to me, then i'd say we're in.

 

[DaveKerwin]

I am with you on that.

It is not how far you can go, it is how far you can stay away from it.

Drawing the line is key, you have to have distinct boundaries AND consequences for breaking them.

 

[Worship All Day]

i hear ya, i know what you're saying, but we shouldn't really have to worry about the boundary if we're not intending to get close to it ever....God's consequences are all that matter, too.

i just think the focus here should be obtaining purity in a relationship, not where to stop or not stop.

 

[DaveKerwin]

i hear ya, i know what you're saying, but we shouldn't really have to worry about the boundary if we're not intending to get close to it ever....God's consequences are all that matter, too.

i just think the focus here should be obtaining purity in a relationship, not where to stop or not stop.

If I say to myself "I will never touch her" that is fine and dandy, but let us not forget that we have flesh. I am human, and I make mistakes. I cannot just not worry about it because I don't plan on sinning. I sin, so that does not work. Specific boundaries are important.

Here is how I do it, do with this what you want. Knowing myself and my girlfriend very well, we have decided that kissing is appropriate for us. What is not appropriate is me touching anything on her covered by underwear, same goes for her to me. Having that boundary is great, because I know what I can and cannot do. Have you ever talked with someone who made a boundary and continued to pass it? It happens a lot. I am involved in an accountability group. I am so serious about being pure that if I mess up with her, I will self impose consequences. For example, if we have oral sex, then we won't talk or see each other for a week. This has never happened, but it provides additional incentive. We continually need to remember that we are NOT one flesh, and we have been asked by God to honor him with our bodies. There have been times when an things have come close to the border, but they were recognized as wrong (since we had a boundary, that is possible), and after seeing it as wrong, we talked about it and made efforts to avoid it in the future.

The boundary can change a little depending on the couple. But NEVER is it acceptable to be sexual before marriage. That is not something that you can just play around with. God says he made sex for marriage, so only in marriage should you have sex (of any kind).

For the guys who push boundaries into the realm of sexuality, let me tell you, I have been there, and I regret it. It is a mistake. With the relationship I am currently in, I do hope and pray that God gives me all the strength I need to be pure, because it really is that important.