Do you mean "disagreement" as something "negative"? I do think your questions have been rather odd or weird.I haven't said anything to attack you....
AND HAVEN'T even got into a discussion
Just trying to touch bases...and you have said ar least 3 negative things...what's that about?
Yes Sam91.This debate has gone on for 15 pages. I don't understand why it is still ongoing.
My opinion based on what I think is plainly said in the bible: If you truly believe Christ our Lord, then you will be humbled and thankful for the chance of forgiveness. If you recognise God as Sovereign and have faith in Him, then you'll obey Him. If you have the Holy Spirit residing in you, then God's commands are written on your heart and you will walk humbly in the Spirit, seeking to live in the Lord's will.
Then, in the end, you will be saved. At the moment I've been redeemed. The Holy Spirit can enable me to endure and when I die I'll be saved. Paul in Philippians didn't count the prize as already gained, he pressed on. A reading of Revelation 2 explains what that prize is.
Our Lord said if we love Him we would obey Him and to state otherwise would be contradicting Him. We are but a grain of sand (less in my opinion), let's just humble ourselves and believe Him.
I haven't as of the last few post said anything to disagree with.I was asking questions because I'm trying to find out about your "doctrine". They are not wierd questions. I will get to where I'm going...but not trying to complicate anything...Do you mean "disagreement" as something "negative"? I do think your questions have been rather odd or weird.
Have you touched all your bases?
Yes,,,"doctrine" is right.I haven't as of the last few post said anything to disagree with.I was asking questions because I'm trying to find out about your "doctrine". They are not wierd questions. I will get to where I'm going...but not trying to complicate anything...
I never said "only lose fellowship". You just don't really pay attention, or you're purposely leaving out what I did say. Which I would call dishonest.To say one could sin and only lose FELLOWSHIP with God is to not understand the Holiness of God and His justice.
OK, now explain why Paul commands believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), and to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.Paul tells us that we have fellowship with the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 13:14
No, it's possible only by confession of sin, which results in being forgiven and cleansed from those sins (1 John 1:9).This is possible because In Christ we are a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5:17
This refers to the FACT that the believer has been born again, regenerated and has the Holy Spirit IN them.IN CHRIST we are a new creation.
Like other posters, you simply don't understand what Jesus meant by "abide".If we are NOT IN Christ...we are thrown away like a dead branch.
John 15:6
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
Why did I leave all that out?I never said "only lose fellowship". You just don't really pay attention, or you're purposely leaving out what I did say. Which I would call dishonest.
In addition to loss of fellowship, there will be PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11), which can include weakness, sickness, and physical death (1 Cor 11:30). And there will be loss of eternal reward.
So, why did you leave out all that?
OK, now explain why Paul commands believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), and to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.
No, it's possible only by confession of sin, which results in being forgiven and cleansed from those sins (1 John 1:9).
This refers to the FACT that the believer has been born again, regenerated and has the Holy Spirit IN them.
Like other posters, you simply don't understand what Jesus meant by "abide".
Well, at least you're admitting that the Bible doesn't make any difference then. Because what I clarified is found IN the Bible, not that it seems you care much.Why did I leave all that out?
Because what difference does it make if we suffer here on earth...
on earth there's suffering.
This is a very blasphemous statement, and means that Jesus Christ just isn't all that much of a Savior, really. If salvation were so slippery, He failed to do His job.We don't lose FELLOWSHIP...we lose our very salvation....
Of course not. Because you can't. Because it's NOT true.but I don't aim to prove this to you.
Oh, for heaven's sake. I never said that. Being cleansed and fellowship restored only occurs until the next time the believer sins.So, according to you...IF WE'RE CLEANSED of our sins...and FELLOWSHIP IS RESTORED...then there will be no suffering for us while here on earth??
It's NOT what I have been saying. And haven't you noticed that I've been CORRECTING your many errors about what I believe and post??Basically, THIS is what you're saying.
Which is why this fellowship idea is UNBIBLICAL.
From how Jesus used the word in John 15, it is clearly and obviously a term for fellowship. v.7 - If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.So, pray tell....what do YOU think ABIDE means?
As we all know, words have their real meaning in how they are used and in the context in which they are used.I'll bet everyone reading along knows what it means sans Strong's Lexicon !
I found this interesting:Well, at least you're admitting that the Bible doesn't make any difference then. Because what I clarified is found IN the Bible, not that it seems you care much.
This is a very blasphemous statement, and means that Jesus Christ just isn't all that much of a Savior, really. If salvation were so slippery, He failed to do His job.
Why don't you understand this?
Jesus Himself told us that those who believe HAVE (as in right now, currently) eternal life. But your opinion is that eternal life can die. No other explanation.
Jesus went on to tell us that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish, but your claim means that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, in direct conflict and opposition to what Jesus said.
Are you smarter than Jesus? Do you know something that He doesn't know?
Of course not. Because you can't. Because it's NOT true.
Oh, for heaven's sake. I never said that. Being cleansed and fellowship restored only occurs until the next time the believer sins.
I believe I asked you this question: have you ceased from all sinning?
It's NOT what I have been saying. And haven't you noticed that I've been CORRECTING your many errors about what I believe and post??
From how Jesus used the word in John 15, it is clearly and obviously a term for fellowship. v.7 - If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Do you think God will answer prayers when believers are out of fellowship with Him?
But, the real problem is your unwillingness to even understand the concept of fellowship. You don't even know what it is. As evidenced by your posts.
You treat the concept with sarcasm and contempt, as if it doesn't exist.
I won't assume you are or have been married. But probably you do know married couples. Do you have any idea what marriage looks like when the couple is IN fellowship and OUT OF fellowship? Can your mind wrap itself around that idea?
As we all know, words have their real meaning in how they are used and in the context in which they are used.
Going back to the example of marriage, if you don't see the issue of fellowship within marriage, then there's just no use in further discussion. It will tell me that you aren't even interested in this biblical concept.
1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Here, Paul begins his first epistle to the Corinthians with the issue of "fellowship of His Son", and it's clear that Paul was writing to saved people. And he ends his second epistle with the issue of fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
1 John 1:3 - that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6 - If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
v.7 is directly tied to v.9.
If you don't know any married couples, then consider the parent child relationship. That relationship is PERMANENT, and cannot be changed or altered in any way.
Now, do you understand how the presence or absence of fellowship between parent and child affects the relationship?
I don't speak in tongues so I ignored the Italian.I found this interesting:
Excuse the Italian...but some might understand it.
It explains fellowship much better.
Yes, just as sin is an offense against God, fellowship is broken. No different than when one spouse offends the other.It's explained as our being united with God through Christ.
So....let me understand.
When we sin,,,we are no longer in fellowship with Christ (and thus God).
I don't like the word "rejoined". Just understand that fellowship is restored.Then we confess and are rejoined with God.
Is this what you're saying?
No, I don't agree with Catholicism. But if they understand the biblical word, they they agree with the Bible on that word.If so, you agree with Catholicism and confession.
LOLI don't speak in tongues so I ignored the Italian.
Yes, just as sin is an offense against God, fellowship is broken. No different than when one spouse offends the other.
I don't like the word "rejoined". Just understand that fellowship is restored.
No, I don't agree with Catholicism. But if they understand the biblical word, they they agree with the Bible on that word.
From 1 John 1:7
Strong's Concordance
koinónia: fellowship
Original Word: κοινωνία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: koinónia
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-nohn-ee'-ah)
Definition: fellowship
Usage: (lit: partnership) (a) contributory help, participation, (b) sharing in, communion, (c) spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the spirit.
That's the Greek word and what it means in 1st Century Palestine.
But you didn't answer my question about fellowship within a marriage or with a parent and child.
Do you or don't you understand what fellowship means in those relationships?
Do you understand that fellowship deals with the state of the relationship?
I did. The way Jesus used it in John 15:1-7 He meant to be in fellowship with Him. For the purpose of bearing fruit.LOL
Sorry 'bout that.
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way...
If we sin we are still united with God in Christ,,,but we have sinned...as you say - until we confess our sin we lose fellowship...but we are still on our walk with God...we still desire to be with Him and abide in Him.
You never said what you believed abide to mean.
No, it doesn't. Because Eph 1:13,14 proves that once sealed, the believer's inheritance is GUARANTEED until the day of redemption. Not "judgment".It means to live with...to be IN Christ...to live by His rules...to stay with Him..
to remain in Him...
The believer would be way out of fellowship. In full rebellion.What if we decide to leave Jesus?
Yes, it is. Jesus explained that the second soil apostatized, in Luke 8:13.Is t his impossible?
No. What you seem confused about is that "leaving Jesus" must mean to leave salvation. No. The best example is the prodigal son. He physically left his father, but throughout the parable he remained a son. And even when he was willing to be demoted from son to slave, he wasn't given the chance to say such nonsense.Do we lose our free will after salvation?
It should be obvious. Then the believer CAN'T be presented holy and blameless before Him.Could you please answer what
Colossians 1:22-23 means.
It plainly states that we will be presented before God blameless
IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH firmly established and steadfast,,and not MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospel.....
IF is a conditional word.
What IF WE DO NOT continue in the faith?
Where would you get such an idea? Haven't you read John 10:28,29?How will we be presented before God blameless if we are not under the protection of Jesus?
The key to understanding these 2 verses is that the phrase "we will be presented before God blameless IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH" refers to spiritual maturity.IF we have NOT continued in the faith....
Saved from what?Yes Sam91.
When we understand the N.T. in a simple and pure way, it becomes unnecessary to continue forever trying to convince others that we could disobey our Lord and still be saved.
I like to say that some accept Jesus as their Savior...
But they won't accept Him as their Lord.
Great verse you posted...in Philippiians...
we have not yet attained the prize..we will get it at the end of our life.
As the Bible says, I was saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8),
I am being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
Saved from what?
You can't sin and be saved from present sins if you are still living in them. Salvation as a verb means delivered....
How does this sound: I'm delivered from my presents sins even when I'm sinning...
It Is Jesus Christ who is secure...
I believe in the security of Christ
Actually, I agree with you.Saved from what?
You can't sin and be saved from present sins if you are still living in them. Salvation as a verb means delivered....
How does this sound: I'm delivered from my presents sins even when I'm sinning...
It Is Jesus Christ who is secure...
I believe in the security of Christ
I agree about the spiritual Kingdom on earth.The way I see it we must enter The Spiritual kingdom on earth. Not by trusting something He's done, or a system of denominational doctrines.. But by first coming to recognize who He is the son of the living God the creator of all things, master and Lord.
You see Him/look to Him and put your trust /believes in Him. And He is the one that regenerated you...having a new life from above....
That's first to me.....
For one must come alive ..For God is not the God of the dead but the living.
Now that you are in the light you should walk in the light....because it is then that God can when He chooses, to Justify you.
Yes, after we are declared justified by God, our walk with Him begins and we have a relationship with Him...we commune with Him.After you are Justified before God you can start to have a relationship with Him.
There we see that eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ.
That's How I see the order...however God can do what He likes .
Salvation is His Life [noun]
Could you explain deliverance?But what you do with His life is your deliverence also called salvation but verb.
So can you lose His life? NO, NOT IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO FIND IT. But can you be in a state of unprotection lose deliverence?[salvation ?v.] Yes
For stop walking in the Spirit and you will see...
Agreed. God has always demanded obedience.In all the old testament stories...God was there for His people, but to be delivered by Him obedience was always required.
Let's look at those stories
Justification is for this life.Here is a question?
Is justification for this life or the next.
When abe believed God for a son did He justify Him for this life?
But now that you are Justified by God
Wouldn't heaven be a byproduct of life now?
You're all over the place FG,,, it makes it difficult to speak to you.I did. The way Jesus used it in John 15:1-7 He meant to be in fellowship with Him. For the purpose of bearing fruit.
How does that sound so weird?
No, it doesn't. Because Eph 1:13,14 proves that once sealed, the believer's inheritance is GUARANTEED until the day of redemption. Not "judgment".
The believer would be way out of fellowship. In full rebellion.
Yes, it is. Jesus explained that the second soil apostatized, in Luke 8:13.
No. What you seem confused about is that "leaving Jesus" must mean to leave salvation. No. The best example is the prodigal son. He physically left his father, but throughout the parable he remained a son. And even when he was willing to be demoted from son to slave, he wasn't given the chance to say such nonsense.
It should be obvious. Then the believer CAN'T be presented holy and blameless before Him.
Where would you get such an idea? Haven't you read John 10:28,29?
"28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."
Eternal security is all through these 2 verses.
First, by being given the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.
Second, no one, meaning no person at least, will snatch them out of Jesus' hand.
Third, no one, meaning no person at least, can snatch them out of His Father's hand.
I don't know how anyone with an open mind cannot see the clear teaching of eternal security in these 2 verses.
btw, I added "at least", because "no one" can include angels. But the point is that it should be obvious that "no one" does mean "no person".
Now, I suspect that you consider yourself as a person, right? I sure hope so. So Jesus was including the believer him/herself as those who CAN'T remove them from His or His Father's hand.
The key to understanding these 2 verses is that the phrase "we will be presented before God blameless IF WE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH" refers to spiritual maturity.
iow, only by continuing in the faith can any believer grow up spiritually.
How does that sound so weird?
btw, here are specific questions I asked of you.
But you didn't answer my question about fellowship within a marriage or with a parent and child.
Do you or don't you understand what fellowship means in those relationships?
Do you understand that fellowship deals with the state of the relationship?
Did you not answer because you don't know the answer, or just didn't want to answer?
These questions are very important, because the importance of fellowship must be understood in order to understand Scripture.
Yet, you have mocked in the past the idea, and even now, you seem rather bland about the concept of fellowship.
I'll make this even more personal. If you are married, how would your marriage be if your husband continually offended you greatly? What kind of marriage would you have?
Hi, I am a learner...and if you will, take my questions as a soft quiet student. SmileActually, I agree with you.
If you've been reading along,,,you should know this.
One cannot practice sin and be saved at the same time.
1 John 3:9
However, one can sin and ask forgiveness and continue in his walk with God.
1 John 1:9
This is why I said that we WILL BE SAVED in the end....
Phiippians 3:12
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