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How many people will be in heaven?

aiki

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My points were and are that even if the people did make mistakes, they still do not know and they are blind and their hearts are dark, they do not know...and even if fault was ultimately not God's, it doesn't change the fact that God succeeded in saving so few, neither does it change that those are people no different than you and me and it was not our goodness that brought us to know God.

Why is it a success only if God saves the majority and a failure if He doesn't? I don't see that God fails when He judges wickedness; He does exactly what a holy, just God should do when He punishes the guilty. How, then, is doing so a failure? None of us deserve heaven; we obtain it only by God's mercy and grace. He is not, then, obliged in any way to get anyone into heaven. I don't see, therefore, how enabling the entrance into heaven of a relative few is a failure. God would have been perfectly within His rights to allow none into heaven.

Selah.
 
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briareos

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His efforts had less to do with who or what was right than it did love and mercy. His death was not out of obligation, but love.

The issue doesnt concern obligation, who he HAS to save or does not. Using "his obligations" to call 1-5% a success is an irresponsible picture of him, obligation was not his position toward us, it is not now and it has not been.
 
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aiki

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The issue doesnt concern obligation, who he HAS to save or does not. Using "his obligations" to call 1-5% a success is an irresponsible picture of him, obligation was not his position toward us, it is not now and it has not been.

I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. God is without any obligation toward us to save us. He is not obliged to save even 1-5% of humanity. Saving the relative few who venture upon the "narrow way" is, not, therefore, a failure. Really, using terms like "success" or "failure" in relation to God ignores the fact that God cannot fail or else He would not be God.

Selah.
 
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Aijalon

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I just have to say this. That 1% stance is mighty arrogant. I mean, look, the Israelites thought the same way, that their tiny nation was the end all be all of the Kingdom, and nobody else got "in" The same things will happen again. Christ will return, and a prideful church with an entitement mentality will be humbled and suffer punishment. Don't assume the Lord's favor as they did.

I guess I have to quote myself from the first page.....

Matthew 7:13 in context is very much a simile, and does not seem to concern the final judgement. It seems that Jesus speaks these cryptic statments (like 'judge not lets ye be judged - Matt 7:1) so that it would be helpful to those in knowing what behavior was fitting and good for those who are of faith.

13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;
14 how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

This seems to concern the way of the world and the worldly destruciton caused by sinful ways.

When Jesus spoke of salvation he spoke of life eternal, notice that he does not use the word eternal. I think the point here is that he means that a living a good life is very difficult, most of us choose to do things destructive to ourelves. It does not mean most people are condemned to hell. When Jesus speaks of eternal life he speaks with more powerful language, like "judgement" "wrath" "repentance"... etc.


So I'll break it down a bit futher. "The destruction" may not be ETERNAL destruction. "the life" may not mean "eternal life". I do see how it might be easy for this to be implied, but Jesus did not say that key word - ETERNAL. I take that as a significant omission.

I mean, think about your tendency to judge, and how imperfect you are at doing that.... Jesus is a perfect Judge, and not only that, but his perfect blood covers a multitude of sins. Don't second guess the Lord's love and forgiveness, he puts this in proportion with is wrath for us in Exodus 20 when it says his kindness endures 1000 generations, vs only 4 generations for his wrath.

Don't assume that since most of the Israelites perished in sin, that they all perished eternally as well. Don't make the mistake of believing God's plan of redemption has ended with you or your generation, or even that it ended with Christ's assenscion. It does not even end at Christ's return to the earth. It goes on another 1000 years after that!

Paul has a very curious stance on salvation that still makes me wonder....

1 Cor 5
3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing,
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Pauls final assessment of the whoring sinner is with an expectation that they be saved by handing them over to Satan. What an amazing, yet quirky view of God's grace! This is one of the key verses that stands out to me, prooving that eternal salvation is a very mysterious thing.

Jesus also has a curious view in the case of the rich young ruler:

Matthew 19
16 And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
22 But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
A lot of people have a tendency to condemn this rich man, assuming he lacks enough faith to be saved. But why do they stop at verse 23? Jesus does not have the same doubts about the man that his disciples do.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jesus did say it was hard, but he did not say it was impossible. BIG DIFFERENCE. The disciples still thought that it was by thier own effort that they were saved, they still had not figured out the grace of God and how big it was. They still didn't yet realize the power of God's influence of the heart, and how much that he wanted hearts, not just a "following".:bow:

We don't see very many people "following" Jesus. Even within the church itself many people are frowning on each other for not doing a good job of following Jesus, or if they do follow, we'll often judge each others' hearts for not being "in the right place". How disgusting is that, that we think we could know the heart of someone else. We do judge each others' actions, for the benefit of the church and betterment of society, but we don't judge according to eternal salvation, and certainly we are not qualified to judge mens' hearts. Claiming a tiny fraction of people as ultimately saved is nothing more than an effort to make you look good, and others small, but sadly in doing that you also make Gods love look small too. :o
 
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briareos

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I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote. God is without any obligation toward us to save us. He is not obliged to save even 1-5% of humanity. Saving the relative few who venture upon the "narrow way" is, not, therefore, a failure. Really, using terms like "success" or "failure" in relation to God ignores the fact that God cannot fail or else He would not be God.

Selah.

I understood what you wrote, my response was that God being obligated or not was not an appropriate or reasonable take on the issue, seeing as how God didn't and doesn't considers his "obligations" toward us to begin with.
 
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briareos

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Aijalon

I appreciate your posts, both of them. I was not sure how to respond to the first. Frankly I was so upset at the time I wasn't really willing to consider I was wrong about the whole thing.

They are very thoughtful, thank you. I am not sure where I stand on your idea but I appreciate the input.
 
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ezeric

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If Adam sinned and all fell (100% of them) and all get the curse, and evil grew...and then death for all.
Then if JESUS doesn't save (100% of them) and bless them and give life to all - then HE failed.

JESUS must get what HE paid for.
Anything less, is undercutting, and serious unbelief and limiting your GOD!

Adam would be greater than JESUS.
Sin would be more powerful than GRACE.
Death would have the last laugh over LIFE.

Sorry, HANDS down, HE isn't going to win but has Won already.
Get before DAD (FATHER) in prayer, and ask if HIS LOVE ever fails?
Ask if JESUS sacrifice was good enough?
Ask if GRACE comes to those that don't even know it or recognize it?

Sorry, Paul makes it clear “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

Everything is dealt by GOD by Covenant.
We have the better one, wow...the BEST one!
Mercy triumphs over judgement. James 2:13
Hallelujah!

-eric

The Exchanged Life
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What percentage of humanity that has existed do you think will be in heaven at the end?

Considering that you generally either have to have been a Jew before before Christ died or you had to be born again after Christ died.

What percantage of the human race that has and will exist will be in heaven?

According to some estimates it seems like heaven may be pretty much empty, just lots and lots of angels.

there will be one person. for God will be all and in all. (1st Corinthians 15:28)
 
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Aijalon

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there will be one person. for God will be all and in all. (1st Corinthians 15:28)

Sorry, not sure what you are getting at there. The correct verse translation is:

28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Sorry, not sure what you are getting at there. The correct verse translation is:

28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

And <1161> when <3752> all things <3956> shall be subdued <5293> (5652) unto him <846>, then <5119> shall <5293> <0> the Son <5207> also <2532> himself <846> be subject <5293> (5691) unto him that put <5293> <0> all things <3956> under <5293> (5660) him <846>, that <2443> God <2316> may be <5600> (5753) all <3956> in <1722> all <3956>.

I'm not seeing that in the greek. "the" all in all looks like poetic conjecture to me. All being in all is actually contextual of the passage.
 
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ALoveDivine

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I'm gonna be optimistic here. Though the gate is small and the way is narrow, and few find it, I still think there's gonna be a whole lot of people in heaven. First consider human population throughout history. We can't even imagine how many countless of billions of people will have lived throughout history when Christ returns. If even a small fraction is saved, that will mean there will be billions of redeemed people enjoying the New Earth. That's an awesome thought!

Also, salvation has always been by faith alone. Old Testament saints were saved because they believed in and trusted the true God. David committed adultery and murder, but he was saved. Why? Because he had genuine faith in the true God and in his promises. The blood of Christ covers the faithful of old testament times just as it covers the faithful today. The faithful are saved by grace, through faith, on both sides of the cross.

Now I look I know we see so much heresy and ungodliness in much of the professing church today, but I don't believe one is only saved if they have some absolutely perfect puritanical repentance experience or live an absolutely holy life without blemish. I truly believe, and I think scripture affirms, that ALL of those who, being well aware of their status as sinners, sincerely turn to Christ for salvation WILL be saved!

Obviously not everyone who's said a sinners prayer is saved, many have said that prayer seeking something other than salvation from the penalty and power of sin. Many have said that prayer without even recognizing that they are wretched, lost sinners in God's eyes. And of course all non-Christians will not be saved. So yes, a lot of people will be damned. But salvation really is a simple matter; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is my contention that many, many people do, truly, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ today. And this is true all throughout the world. We all have our flaws, we all battle with indwelling sin, and we all fall so short of God's glory. But God's grace is magnified by our imperfections. I truly believe God will redeem all of those who have sincerely turned to Christ for salvation.

So yeah, comparatively few will enjoy the blessings of life on the New Earth, dwelling with God. Yet this comparative few will be a MASSIVE number of people, billions probably. I think God has chosen a people for himself, from all people groups and from all generations, and there is no reason to think this people of his is in any way 'small', though it is still "few" comparatively speaking.
 
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vortigen84

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And <1161> when <3752> all things <3956> shall be subdued <5293> (5652) unto him <846>, then <5119> shall <5293> <0> the Son <5207> also <2532> himself <846> be subject <5293> (5691) unto him that put <5293> <0> all things <3956> under <5293> (5660) him <846>, that <2443> God <2316> may be <5600> (5753) all <3956> in <1722> all <3956>.

I'm not seeing that in the greek. "the" all in all looks like poetic conjecture to me. All being in all is actually contextual of the passage.

It doesn't matter because you're wrong anyway.
 
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Aijalon

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And <1161> when <3752> all things <3956> shall be subdued <5293> (5652) unto him <846>, then <5119> shall <5293> <0> the Son <5207> also <2532> himself <846> be subject <5293> (5691) unto him that put <5293> <0> all things <3956> under <5293> (5660) him <846>, that <2443> God <2316> may be <5600> (5753) all <3956> in <1722> all <3956>.

I'm not seeing that in the greek. "the" all in all looks like poetic conjecture to me. All being in all is actually contextual of the passage.

Perhaps "the" is poetic conjecture... not really sure. Doesn't seem to change the construction or meaning of the verse. But more to the point what the heck did you mean by "There will be one person". Mind explaining that one more, hope it isn't the idea that we're all merging into one......
 
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L

LemonAidStand

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A countless multitude will be in heaven.

But as a percentage: few find eternal life.

God just doesn't want that many people saved. If he did, he'd elect more people, but as it is he desires to show his wrath.

(Anyone who takes offense at this needs to read Romans 9 until they can recite it in their sleep.)

I think you said that without validating it.. God is sovereign and brings glory to His glorious name by either one of only two ways. First by punishing unrighteousness. And second by showing mercy thru His grace to undeserving vessels.. The problem is that most people don't feel that they deserve God's wrath.. Truthfully, we all do. It is a wonder as to why any of us elect are saved thru grace. Blessengs......
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It doesn't matter because you're wrong anyway.
^_^

Perhaps "the" is poetic conjecture... not really sure. Doesn't seem to change the construction or meaning of the verse. But more to the point what the heck did you mean by "There will be one person". Mind explaining that one more, hope it isn't the idea that we're all merging into one......

I meant in the Way Jesus said I and the Father are one and explained it through out the gospel of John as them being "inside" each other.

that kind of one person.
 
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Tnmusicman

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Ultimately we do not know and its impossible to know. What we do know is:

John 14:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Lets be comforted by this verse.
 
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motherprayer

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Tnmusicman said:
Ultimately we do not know and its impossible to know. What we do know is:

John 14:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Lets be comforted by this verse.

Amen! Amen again!
 
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