• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How many other children did Mary have? (2)

Status
Not open for further replies.

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
We could try a test. I'll argue for E-V. You argue for a normal human birth and Mary/Joseph children (brothers of Jesus). Let's see who understands who. Shall I go first?
This would be a great idea, I think. So often, people are arguing against arguments that are never being made, and assuming the worst of possible motives on behalf of their opponents in the debates.
To actually try to restate the argument of their opponents in their own words, and search for reasons why that argument might be believable would be a great way to open our minds to each other.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
staff edit

On the matter of terminology, some consideration must be made for the following:
* Lexicons are artificially truncated -
they often do not give full definitions
they do not reflect full usage
they do not give the full vernacular breadth of meanings
they do not allow for cross-cultural impact of understanding

A simple perusal of the LXX OT demonstrates the usage of adelphos for the following relationships: same tribe, same grandfather, same familial head, and others (but always indicating, as far as I can find, a common male as defining relationship both socially and spiritually). The usage in the LXX is consistent with Hebraic and Aramaic understanding of equivalent terminology.
The usage in the Greek language - which had extensive terminology for familial relationships (based on social obligations, including funerary rites) also demonstrates in usage a simplified vernacular with broad application. (For example, it is also used for spouse where there is not biological relationship.)

On the other matters:
*there is no Scriptural indication that Mary did have other children, so why assume what is not evidenced, but relies on assumption ?
*look at the pattern of what is used/set aside for God, and the effect of an intimate relationship with God with the person's subsequent life (On this matter, see Midrash re: on Moses.)
*look at the pattern of the child God prefers, and that person's placement in the (familial) order (not always the oldest, which is clearly the human preference)
*on what relies the assumption that Mary should or would have
other children ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Dorothea
Upvote 0
A

Adaephon

Guest
On the other matters:
*there is no Scriptural indication that Mary did have other children, so why assume what is not evidenced, but relies on assumption ?
*look at the pattern of what is used/set aside for God, and the effect of an intimate relationship with God with the person's subsequent life (On this matter, see Midrash re: on Moses.)
*look at the pattern of the child God prefers, and that person's placement in the (familial) order (not always the oldest, which is clearly the human preference)
*on what relies the assumption that Mary should or would have
other children ?

Very well said. :)
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
staff edit

I have never seen any sound argument why it should be held de fide that Mary had no other children either.
Some say cousin; some say step-brother. Some say of the same womb. They normal reading would imply brothers and sisters, for no other relationships for these people are specified, as was the case for cousin John, for example.

You would think though that for a church to invest so much of our salvation on the fact that Mary did not have other children, there would be some mention of it in the very books that that church holds to be sacred.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
152,142
19,766
USA
✟2,070,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
MOD HAT

The site rules include:
Do not post in the forums reserved for Christians only, unless you are truly a Nicene Creed, Trinitarian Christian (please see our Statement of Faith to know exactly what that is). If you wish to discuss unorthodox doctrines, you may do so in Unorthodox Theology.

Non-Christian posts will be removed.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Upvote 0

billvelek

Regular Member
Sep 16, 2014
353
35
Arkansas
✟15,654.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Will some of you, perhaps at least one Catholic and at least one Protestant, please explain to me why it actually makes any difference at all whether Mary had children after she gave birth to Jesus?

If she DID, that doesn't make her any less of a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Master, nor would it have made her any less "Holy". And of course, if she did NOT have other children, then the same is still true.

But as a Catholic (though fallen-away by not attending Mass), let me add a point that I seem to sometimes perceive when debating (or reading about) this issue. Although I must admit that it has been very rare, still there have been a few times when I have sensed some degree of hostility, if you can believe it, to the Virgin Mary herself, coming from some of the opponents to her perpetual virginity. Why? Do those who feel that way somehow think that Mary is now evil, because they think that Catholics worship her and that this somehow makes her a false god? Do they think that Mary is somehow the 'harlot of Babylon' mentioned in Revelations? What is the deal? In conjunction with their claim that Mary could not possibly have remained a virgin because of what is said in Matt. 12:46 -- "While He was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and His brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with Him." -- many are very quick to follow-up with verses 48-50: "But He said in reply to the one who told him, 'Who is My mother? Who are My brothers?' And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, 'Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My heavenly Father is My brother, and sister, and mother.'”

It is almost as if they think (and maybe they DO) that this somehow indicates that Jesus had turned His back on them for some reason such as unbelief in Him, and that this further diminishes the holiness of our 'Holy Mary'. Come on, folks, if any of you think that way, I have a few words for you. First, that would be a completely unwarranted supposition because it is quite likely that Jesus was merely using that announcement of their presence as an opportune time to make a true and valid point -- that we believers are His family, too -- and it is also unwarranted because He might well have gone to greet them immediately after making that statement (and which would not be significant enough of a fact worth mentioning in the gospel). There is not the least bit of hard evidence that Jesus was 'dissing' (disrespecting) His family in any way; in my opinion, it is not even suggested in the slightest way. And it would have been equally ridiculous to expect Jesus to have said: "Oh, you mean my STEP-brothers ...", or to expect the gospels to have necessarily recorded that, even if He had. That's because we all realize that only an extremely small amount of what Jesus said during His ministry was capable of being included in a single volume book. But yet I often sense that 'insinuation' of some sort of a divide between Jesus and His family, and that Mary was therefore no longer "Holy" and any more worthy of our veneration and respect than any ordinary person. In fact, to further support that supposition by those critics, I seem to recall such people referring to Mark 3:21 -- "When His relatives heard of this they set out to seize Him, for they said, 'He is out of his mind.'” (NAB). [The KJV says: "And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside Himself.'"]

Now, let me make an argue why it is ridiculous to contend that Mary, or Jesus' family, would be unbelievers in Him. First, Mary knew from the moment of her conception of Jesus, that He is the Son of God; did she have a lapse of memory or later believe that it was all a dream? She even approached Him at the wedding feast of Cana with absolute confidence that He could somehow miraculously save the day; ... or did she expect him to take a cart and go buy wine somewhere? Of course Mary knew that Jesus had a mission, and even after Jesus told her explicitly that His time had not yet come, she still ... with confidence that her Son would help ... told the servants to do whatever He told them. And surely by then, she had also heard the stories about Jesus' miracles -- and though many others might have thought that they were just myths or exaggerations, surely she knew differently. So it is preposterous to think that Mary would have EVER been an unbeliever in her Son, or that she would have ever done anything to merit His disdain -- as if Jesus would ever ignore and disrespect His mother inasmuch as Jesus expressly mentioned the commandment: "Honor thy mother and thy father." Jesus said precisely that in response to the question of what one must do to be saved, in Mark 10:19 (NAB): "You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’” Surely Jesus honored His mother all of the days of His life, right up to the moment that He spoke to her and St. John while he hung on the cross.

Likewise with St. Joseph (although he wasn't alive during Christ's ministry). He was certainly aware of the divinity of Jesus; besides what Mary told him, he had confirmation when he was told to take the Holy Family into Egypt.

Now, as for any siblings of Jesus, whether they were half-siblings or step-siblings, they would have been raised by Mary and at least part of their lives by St. Joseph; Holy Mary and St. Joseph were both well aware of the divinity of Jesus. Isn't it likely that the siblings of Jesus would have been raised with this same knowledge and awareness -- or if not raised with it, at least told of it by Mary after Jesus began His ministry.

Anyway, one of the ancient books that never made it into the Bible describes the relationship/circumstances between Mary and Joseph this way, in short: Joseph was 80 years old when he became betrothed to Mary, and already had children (probably ALL of the so-called brothers and sisters of Christ, who therefore would have really been STEP-siblings, NOT born of Mary). Because of his advanced age, and perhaps more so because of devotion to God and some divine guidance, St. Joseph never engaged in sexual relations with Mary. There are other reasons why Catholic Church dogma -- much of which is based upon earliest Christian tradition (people who lived at the time and had first-hand knowledge) -- hold that Holy Mary remained a perpetual virgin. But if the Catholic Church happens to be wrong on that point, I ask again: "What difference does it make?"

May the Lord be with you!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.