How Many Mediators?

[david01]

I am confused. One of the offices and titles ascribed to the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Roman Catholic Church is that of Co-Mediatrix. In my experience being a co-something implies complete and utter equality. For example, two co-chairs of an organization are sharing the same office. Otherwise, one would be CEO and the other Vice-Ceo. Thus, it appears to me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is one of (at least) two mediators between God and man.

Now, my good friend, JacktheCatholic, tells me that Mary is just another saint in heaven to whom we pray and hold in high esteem. If that is the case, then are there lots of mediators (saints) between God and Man, just two, one, or none?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I am confused. One of the offices and titles ascribed to the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Roman Catholic Church is that of Co-Mediatrix. In my experience being a co-something implies complete and utter equality. For example, two co-chairs of an organization are sharing the same office. Otherwise, one would be CEO and the other Vice-Ceo. Thus, it appears to me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is one of (at least) two mediators between God and man.

Now, my good friend, JacktheCatholic, tells me that Mary is just another saint in heaven to whom we pray and hold in high esteem. If that is the case, then are there lots of mediators (saints) between God and Man, just two, one, or none?

If this bothers you, I'd suggest you just not believe it.

Blessings.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

There is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. Says so in the Bible. There is NO CoMediator. Though I hold Mary in high esteem as the Mother of God ( yes one can call her that since Jesus is God incarnate) that does NOT mean she is a mediator between God and man. I understand the idea of asking the saints to pray for you just as I would ask you to pray for me, but that does NOT make them mediators.

 

[Foundthelight]

There is one mediator, Christ.

But, just as we ask our fellow Christians in our congregations and on the internet to provide intercessory prayer for us, we can ask Mary and the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. One Mediator, many intercessors.

 

[Foundthelight]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Mediator;


(1) Mediator defined

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God -- angels, saints, holy men -- plead our cause before God, they mediate "with Christ"; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession. Moses, howover, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Galatians 3:19-20).
(2) Christ the Mediator

St. Paul writes to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:3-6) . . . "God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator of and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times." The object of the mediatorship is here pointed out as the salvation of mankind, and the imparting of truth about God. The mediator is named: Christ Jesus; His qualification for the office is implied in His being described as man, and the performance of it is ascribed to His redeeming sacrifice and His testifying to the truth. All this originates in the Divine Will of "God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved". Christ's mediatorship, therefore, occupies the central position in the economy of salvation: all human souls are both for time and eternity dependent on Christ Jesus for their whole supernatural life. "Who [God the Father] hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature . . . all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fulness should dwell; And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven". (Colossians 1:13-20)

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I agree. One mediator. Where does the bible teach that Mary is in heaven?

 

[cajunhillbilly]

There is one mediator, Christ.

But, just as we ask our fellow Christians in our congregations and on the internet to provide intercessory prayer for us, we can ask Mary and the Saints in Heaven to pray for us. One Mediator, many intercessors.

I have no problem believing the saints in heaven pray for the church on the earth. I hust have problems with long winded requests for St So-and-so please pray for me. Do you ask someone at church that way? Nope. you just say Please pray for me about this or that. So why these long winded petitions?

 

[Foundthelight]

I have no problem believing the saints in heaven pray for the church on the earth. I hust have problems with long winded requests for St So-and-so please pray for me. Do you ask someone at church that way? Nope. you just say Please pray for me about this or that. So why these long winded petitions?

If you want it short and sweet that is OK. Long winded is OK too. Whatever floats your boat. There is no requirement to ask Mary and the Saints for their prayer. You do it because you want too.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The term is a translation into English. "Co" doesn't mean the same as "equal" in the Latin sense. It is closer to "assists".

In some cases in English, co doesn't mean equal to. For example, a pilot flies the plane and the co-pilot is under him.

 

[JoabAnias]

I am confused. One of the offices and titles ascribed to the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Roman Catholic Church is that of Co-Mediatrix. In my experience being a co-something implies complete and utter equality. For example, two co-chairs of an organization are sharing the same office. Otherwise, one would be CEO and the other Vice-Ceo. Thus, it appears to me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is one of (at least) two mediators between God and man.

Now, my good friend, JacktheCatholic, tells me that Mary is just another saint in heaven to whom we pray and hold in high esteem. If that is the case, then are there lots of mediators (saints) between God and Man, just two, one, or none?

Forgive me if this has already been answered to your satifaction. I am new and haven't the energy to read the whole thread right now so will just answer as best I can.

First: Co-redemptrix was denied as a title for the Blessed Virgin as of yet.

The reasoning behind it isn't to attribute any divine power to Mary. She was human like the rest of us.

Its about her special place with the Lord.

In a sense through out sufferings here on Earth we are all granted a share of Christs passion and suffering in itself can be redemptive as you may have experienced for yourself.

The answer to your question may lay in the explaination of intercession of the saints and how they can hear us in heaven.

How can the Saints know and hear so many countless intercessory prayers from so many Christians worldwide petitioning them. The question is really one of knowing, not hearing.

It is important for us to remember the fullness of revelation regarding our state of being after our human life is completed. Principle among scriptures revealing our future life is the revelation of the essential nature of God Himself.

Jesus often spoke of His Father (Abba) and of His Holy Spirit.

Matt 28:19
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit

John 10:38
but if I (Jesus) perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

The New Testament speaks often of the unity of the Godhead.

John 14:10-11
Do you not believe that I (Jesus) am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing His works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.

John also speaks of our union with the Father and Jesus as a fellowship a word from the Greek koinonia which is translated "community" meaning "in-union-with."

John 1:3
What we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is most specific about our final relationship with Him. He calls it a one-ness.

John 17:11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.

John 17:21-22
... so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.

The Trinity is a foreshadowing of our eternal life--a oneness with the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. We will share the life of the Godhead; as He knows so shall we know.

The Saints already in union, at-one-ness with God share his life and his knowledge.

Paul put it succinctly.

1 Cor 13:12
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

John also had an insight that reflected our destiny.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

We know this because it is the unbroken teaching of the apostolic Church since the beginning and that Church was empowered by Christ to teach in his name (Luke 10:16). From the time of the martyrs, Masses were celebrated in cemeteries.

Why?

Because the early Christians took seriously Paul's teaching that all the members of the Church are also "members of one another" (Romans 12:5) and that nothing—not even death—could separate us from the love of Christ.

Also, they had the example of the gospel itself, which clearly taught that the blessed dead were aware of and concerned about earthly doings (as for example the very dead and very blessed Moses was on the Mount of Transfiguration [Luke 9:28-36]).

So the Church followed this lead and held Mass near the graves of dead saints, asking the prayers and intercession of the dead in Christ since, as Jesus himself said, the blessed dead are alive to God (Matthew 22:29-33).

As to how the blessed dead are aware of us, we don't know, any more than we know how God raises the dead or multiplies loaves. One common theory is that they know of us "in the Holy Spirit" or, as the Orthodox say, "The saints see us reflected in God's eyes."

 

[TheCheat1]

I am confused. One of the offices and titles ascribed to the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Roman Catholic Church is that of Co-Mediatrix. In my experience being a co-something implies complete and utter equality. For example, two co-chairs of an organization are sharing the same office. Otherwise, one would be CEO and the other Vice-Ceo. Thus, it appears to me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is one of (at least) two mediators between God and man.

Now, my good friend, JacktheCatholic, tells me that Mary is just another saint in heaven to whom we pray and hold in high esteem. If that is the case, then are there lots of mediators (saints) between God and Man, just two, one, or none?

One. Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

 

[JoabAnias]

One. Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

After Jesus leads us to the Father, can we then approach the Father directly or do we still need Jesus to direct us there?

Is there anyone who can lead us to Jesus?


Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and to whom the Son will reveal him.

Eph 2:18 For by him we have access both in one Spirit to the Father.

Col 3:17 All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:

 

[Technocrat2010]

One. Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

What was 1 Timothy 2:1-5 about, then? No one denies Jesus is the mediator. No one denies He is the chief mediator. But when the Apostles are talking about praying on one's behalf, that's certainly acting as a mediator. We are subordinate mediators. Of course no one comes to the Father except through Jesus - but as to coming to Jesus... well...

Essentially it's because Jesus made His sacrifice and because He is the chief mediator that we are able to petition on each other's behalf at all. Jesus is the bridge between humanity and God. Is it necessary that we petition for each other and act as subordinate mediators? No. Is it good and useful? Most certainly it is.

 

[mont974x4]

Why do you need another one? Isn't Christ sufficient? Do you thnk He can't be bothered?

 

[JoabAnias]

Why do you need another one? Isn't Christ sufficient? Do you thnk He can't be bothered?

Na thats not why, stealing from the title of one of Patrick Madrids books its because "Any friend of Gods is a friend of mine". We are all mediators with God but because we interceed with Him for each other doesn't mean anyone but Him has the power. Jesus grants us that privlege which is why we can even utter His name. Yeshua and Abba are one but before Yeshuas redemption through the new Eve we were seperated from Him and not even permitted to speak His name. Through the fulfillment of Yeshua we are redeemed and as Saint Paul says often in scripoture, we are part of the same family here on Earth as the living family in heaven. No harm in trying to get to know the whole family from here and He knows and hears all the moment we ask whoever to ask for us. Its He who told us to knock persistently and our heavenly friends are great helps in that task.

Peace.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Yeah and doesn't St. Paul say that he has been given the ministry of reconciling people with Jesus?

The Lord likes us to help Him.

Isn't that wonderful that He loves us that much to let us share in helping Him?

 

[cajunhillbilly]

You are not getting it. Scripture certainly teaches that we can and should pray for one another. But that is NOT the same as being a Mediator. The Mediator is one who stands between the accused and the law and pleads for the one accused. Only Jesus does that. He ALONE is the ONE Mediator between God and man. We need no other. Sure we pray for one another, but even those prayers for each other are accepted by God only because of the ONE Mediator, Jesus Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

We are ambassadors, royal priests, joint heirs....not mediators.

 

[JoabAnias]

You are not getting it. Scripture certainly teaches that we can and should pray for one another. But that is NOT the same as being a Mediator. The Mediator is one who stands between the accused and the law and pleads for the one accused. Only Jesus does that. He ALONE is the ONE Mediator between God and man. We need no other. Sure we pray for one another, but even those prayers for each other are accepted by God only because of the ONE Mediator, Jesus Christ.

Ah but we do get that. That is where we begin but eventually Jesus leads us to the Father with Him as our brother. He and the Father are one. Its a divine mystery but if you stop trying to place a division between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit where there is none and view them as a perfectly unified God then you may start to understand the Scriptural perspective of the communion of the Saints that Saint Paul speaks of so very often. Believe it or not, we are our brothers keepers.

Peace Saint.

 

[JoabAnias]

We are ambassadors, royal priests, joint heirs....not mediators.

Splitting hairs over terms. Can't be a joint heir and not have a part.

Intercessor is a form of mediator in the literal definition of the words. We are not denying Christ is sole mediator but there is more depth to the meaning of our personal roles as intercessors that cannot be discarded because of that.

Here is an offical definition as you will see is entirely logical and makes us both correct so long as we accept its entirety:

Mediator​

A title of Christ as the one who reconciled God and the human race. It is based on the teaching of St. Paul, that "there is only one god, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus, who sacrificed Himself as a ransom for them all" (I Timothy 2:5-6). Christ is best qualified to be the mediator, i.e., one who brings estranged parties to agreement. As God, he was the one with whom the human race was to be reconciled; as a human being, he represented the ones who needed reconciliation. Christ continues his work of mediation, no longer to merit the grace of human forgiveness, but to communicate the grace already won on the Cross. Moreover, others than Christ may also be called mediators in a totally secondary sense, "in that they co-operate in our reconciliation; disposing and ministering to men's union with God" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III, 48, 1). In fact every person, insofar as he or she co-operates with divine grace, is a kind of mediator between himself or herself and God. (Etym. Latin mediator, from mediare, to stand or divide in the middle.)

Peace.