How many here accept the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha as Scripture?

[Onieu]

The title of this thread should be, "a vague attack on gnostic Christians".

Your subtle insults through out this thread are clear to me.

lol. im definitely not trying to hide my anti gnostic stance. I disagree with the gnostics. those are the facts. are the gnostics right? maybe but i dont think they are. have any of my comments misrepresented your belief system?

if so sorry for misrepresenting your positions.

 

[gord44]

they believed in occult knowledge which they believed most people were literally incapable of understanding because their souls were created evil.

Huh? All souls are a divine spark, a shard of divinity. None were created evil, but many forget. Not evil, but ignorant of who they are.

 

[ananda]

Oh i accept Balaam as a true prophet. I dont remember Balaam speaking any falsehoods. That being said I agree Balaam was not saved in the end. But I believe he was a true prophet and I dont see him speaking any false prophecies in the Bible or in his book.

Num 31:16 cf Rev 2:14.

A prophet is not only one who foretells events, a prophet is also one who claims to speak for YHWH or a false god.

Uttering a false prophecy is only one way of identifying a false prophet. Torah itself states that if one claims to speak for YHWH but instead tries to drive one away from Torah (e.g. Deu 13:1-6), then he or she is also a false prophet.

 

[Onieu]

Huh? All souls are a divine spark, a shard of divinity. None were created evil, but many forget. Not evil, but ignorant of who they are.

okay that's good; i think some gnostic groups in the ancient times taught there were some created evil though.

 

[Onieu]

Num 31:16 cf Rev 2:14.

A prophet is not only one who foretells events, a prophet is also one who claims to speak for YHWH or a false god.

Uttering a false prophecy is only one way of identifying a false prophet. Torah itself states that if one claims to speak for YHWH but instead tries to drive one away from Torah (e.g. Deu 13:1-6), then he or she is also a false prophet.

My understanding was only if they prophesied something false are they a false prophet. I agree it doesn't have to be foretelling events. Did Balaam prophesy anything evil? He may have sinned, but did he ever give a sinful prophecy? My understanding was that he did not. But i could be wrong.

 

[ananda]

My understanding was only if they prophesied something false are they a false prophet. I agree it doesn't have to be foretelling events. Did Balaam prophesy anything evil? He may have sinned, but did he ever give a sinful prophecy? My understanding was that he did not. But i could be wrong.

Reread Deu 13:1-5. A false prophet can prophesy something that does come to pass. He is false if his message is intended to turn one away from YHWH or His Torah (Deu 13:5).

 

[Onieu]

Reread Deu 13:1-5. A false prophet can prophesy something that does come to pass. He is false if his message is intended to turn one away from YHWH or His Torah (Deu 13:5).

where does Balaam's prophecy try to turn people away from YHWH or Torah? when it says do not believe the prophet who says to go after other gods even if his first prophecies come to pass, its saying do not believe in false gods even if a prophet says so. its not saying the prophet is false. even if the prophet is true, he deserves death if he teaches false things. Everything that is given by God is God's word. Nebuchadnezzar's dream was God's word. Pharoah's dream was God's word. Im pretty sure Numbers says Balaam's prophecies were inspired by the Holy Spirit (YHWH)

 

[Phantasman]

Reread Deu 13:1-5. A false prophet can prophesy something that does come to pass. He is false if his message is intended to turn one away from YHWH or His Torah (Deu 13:5).

You could put Jesus in that thought if you're not careful. "Love your enemy?"

 

[ananda]

where does Balaam's prophecy try to turn people away from YHWH or Torah?

The Deu 13:1-5 injunction is not limited to prophecies.

when it says do not believe the prophet who says to go after other gods even if his first prophecies come to pass, its saying do not believe in false gods even if a prophet says so. its not saying the prophet is false. even if the prophet is true, he deserves death if he teaches false things. Everything that is given by God is God's word. Nebuchadnezzar's dream was God's word. Pharoah's dream was God's word. Im pretty sure Numbers says Balaam's prophecies were inspired by the Holy Spirit (YHWH)

Deu 13:1-5 states that YHWH Himself will send false prophets to test us, to see if we love Him and His Torah. But they are still to be rejected.

 

[ananda]

You could put Jesus in that thought if you're not careful. "Love your enemy?"

This precept is found in Torah & the Writings: cf Ex 23:4-5, Prov 24:17-18, 25:21-22.

 

[Onieu]

The Deu 13:1-5 injunction is not limited to prophecies.

Deu 13:1-5 states that YHWH Himself will send false prophets to test us, to see if we love Him and His Torah. But they are still to be rejected.

1.A prophet is true if all his prophecies are true.
2.A prophet is evil if any of his teachings (non prophetic or prophetic) are false.
3.A true prophet is to be stoned if he commits blasphemy or any other capital crimes.

Jonah was a true prophet, yet he was a murderer (he who hates in his heart, he is a murderer). He is in the Bible because he was a true prophet. though im sure he repented as well.

My point is i accept Balaam and his book as true prophecy and thus Scripture. Balaam was a true prophet (1). Balaam was killed because of (3).

 

[ananda]

1.A prophet is true if all his prophecies are true. 2.A prophet is evil if any of his teachings (non prophetic or prophetic) are false. 3.A true prophet is to be stoned if he commits blasphemy or any other capital crimes. Jonah was a true prophet, yet he was a murderer (he who hates in his heart, he is a murderer). He is in the Bible because he was a true prophet. though im sure he repented as well. My point is i accept Balaam and his book as true prophecy and thus Scripture. Balaam was a true prophet (1). Balaam was killed because of (3).

I wasn't aware Balaam wrote a book. I do not accept Balaam per Num 31:16, 2Pet 2:15, Jud 1:11, Rev 2:14 - he failed point 2 you listed.

Satan's words are in the Bible (Job 1, Genesis, etc.) - is he a true prophet too?

 

[Onieu]

I wasn't aware Balaam wrote a book. I do not accept Balaam per Num 31:16, 2Pet 2:15, Jud 1:11, Rev 2:14 - he failed point 2 you listed.

Satan's words are in the Bible (Job 1, Genesis, etc.) - is he a true prophet too?

Yes he failed number 2, but he is still a true prophet. He was just an evil/unsaved true prophet. Satan is not a true prophet because some of his prophecies are false. But if all his prophecies were true, yes he would be a true prophet despite being incredibly wicked.

Yeah Balaam's book is called the Deir Alla Inscription. the copy is dated to the 9th century BC. only fragments survive.

 

[ananda]

He was just an evil/unsaved true prophet.

Are we to listen to evil/unsaved true prophets?

Yeah Balaam's book is called the Deir Alla Inscription. the copy is dated to the 9th century BC. only fragments survive.

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[Onieu]

Are we to listen to evil/unsaved true prophets?

Thanks, I'll look into it.

In my view yes. Jonah was evil but his book got in the Bible. I believe Jonah repented of his wickedness but he was full of hate when he prophesied to the Ninevites; can a saved prophet be full of hate? What does 1 John say? read the whole 1 John you'll see . chapter 3 i recommend for the context of our discussion

 

[ananda]

In my view yes. Jonah was evil but his book got in the Bible. I believe Jonah repented of his wickedness but he was full of hate when he prophesied to the Ninevites; can a saved prophet be full of hate? What does 1 John say? read the whole 1 John you'll see . chapter 3 i recommend for the context of our discussion

You claim that we are to listen to evil/unsaved "true" prophets who delivers false messages. So, may I conclude that you reject Deu 13:3-5?

"thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul ... that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against YHWH your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.

 

[Onieu]

You claim that we are to listen to evil/unsaved "true" prophets who delivers false messages. So, may I conclude that you reject Deu 13:3-5?

"thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for YHWH your Elohim proveth you, to know whether ye love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul ... that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against YHWH your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which YHWH thy Elohim commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.

"“If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams,...saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4"

when it says "to the words" i believe it means "to those words" in context.

That being said, ive gone back and forth on Balaam. When i found out about him i accepted him, then rejected him but now accept him again. i had rejected him for basically the same reason you do. be sure though that I know and agree that he has not made it into the kingdom.

 

[rEACHout4all]

lol. im definitely not trying to hide my anti gnostic stance. I disagree with the gnostics. those are the facts. are the gnostics right? maybe but i dont think they are. have any of my comments misrepresented your belief system?

if so sorry for misrepresenting your positions.

What kind of person laughs at someone they offend?

I said your hiding insults not your stance.

You continue to add insult by being coy about what I said.

I will not tell anyone to stay away from any book, because truth is sown everywhere.

IMO by attacking the truth, you attack my God and laugh about it.

God bless you.

 

[Onieu]

What kind of person laughs at someone they offend?

I said your hiding insults not your stance.

You continue to add insult by being coy about what I said.

I will not tell anyone to stay away from any book, because truth is sown everywhere.

IMO by attacking the truth, you attack my God and laugh about it.

God bless you.

I laugh because its silly to say what you are saying. my attacks on gnosticism are because i view it as a false religion. if you think that is an insult, im sorry but the problem is you are defining my words as insult when all i did was simply disagree vehemently with the truthfulness of your branch of Christianity.

im not laughing about your God (though Elijah laughed about Baal). I was laughing at the idea that i am insulting you personally by saying i disagree with your religion. if that's the case, EVERYONE is insulting you.

I read those books, so its not staying away from them entirely but im warning about books i believe she not be gone to as Scriptural. read them? sure i read them sometimes. but im warning her not to consider those books as glorifying God.

Thanks for the blessing. We probably worship the same God. I believe Zeus, Jupiter, Allah, etc, are all God/YHWH. The god of gods of each religion i view as YHWH

 

[Phantasman]

This precept is found in Torah & the Writings: cf Ex 23:4-5, Prov 24:17-18, 25:21-22.

Exodus 15:
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.


Yet Jesus said to "Love our enemy".