How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[John Mullally]

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

The sheep He lays His life down for are His own. They aren’t potential customers.

Jesus did not just die for the sheep, as He died for all people (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2).

That is why Jesus is the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10) as God desires all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

But receiving salvation from God via the atonement is conditional - as only those who believe are saved.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

Until you start actually engaging with the texts and arguments, I don’t see a need to respond. You’ll just post more cut and paste verses, so it’s too difficult to have an actual discussion.

That is a false accusation. I am engaging by refuting your point in red (top post) with my point in red (second post). And as usual, I provide a reasonable amount of argumentation backed up by scripture to reinforce my point.

 

[Hammster]

In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
You know the message which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— Acts 10:34-36

Behold My Servant, My Chosen One, He will judge the world in righteousness. Isa 42:1
Coming to Him as to a living stone chosen by God; 1 Peter 2:4-6

And how does this relate to the OP?

 

[Hammster]

That is a false accusation. I am engaging by refuting your point in red (top post) with my point in red (second post). And as usual, I provide a reasonable amount of argumentation backed up by scripture to reinforce my point.

I know you see it that way.

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar


I can understand why it could be difficult ( figure of speech) Jesus says:

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Try DA Carson (shorter) on John 10 1-21


Part 6: Jesus the Shepherd of God (John 10:1-21) - The Gospel Coalition



In Him,

Bill

I listened to it. I liked it a lot until he came to the statements towards the end. He makes a few statements that are more like assumptions, which I can't agree with. God is not transforming sheep. Sheep are already transformed.

 

[Dah'veed]

And how does this relate to the OP?

In that now that you're in the faith, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:25-29

 

[Hammster]

In that now that you're in the faith, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female;
for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:25-29

If you aren’t going to answer, I’ll move along now.

 

[zoidar]

But when I show that the reason they don’t believe is because they aren’t His sheep, you don’t really believe it. You want to introduce some other reason for their disbelief. And although I know the reason, the reason isn’t the focus here.

I believe and agree that they don't believe because they aren't his sheep. What I'm not agreeing with you on is why they aren't his sheep. You only want to discuss one part, leaving out the other, rendering the discussion meaningless.

Let’s try it this way, then. Let’s say that every person is a sheep, but in John 10 not everyone is Jesus’ sheep. Can we start there?

I see no reason to go there. I think the Bible is quite clear not everyone is a sheep.

 

[Hammster]

I believe and agree that they don't believe because they aren't his sheep. What I'm not agreeing with you on is why they aren't his sheep. You only want to discuss one part, leaving out the other, rendering the discussion meaningless.
I see no reason to go there. I think the Bible is quite clear not everyone is a sheep.

Okay, then do you believe they are goats and then become sheep?

 

[John Mullally]

Okay, then do you believe they are goats and then become sheep?

Jesus uses the metaphore "goat" in Matthew 25:31-33 where he talks about the final judgement. He does not use it in John 10.

In John 10, Jesus said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus uses the metaphore "goat" in Matthew 25:31-33 where he talks about the final judgement. He does not use it in John 10.

In John 10, Jesus said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

Are they sheep prior to becoming one of His sheep, or are they something else.

 

[BBAS 64]

I listened to it. I liked it a lot until he came to the statements towards the end. He makes a few statements that are more like assumptions, which I can't agree with. God is not transforming sheep. Sheep are already transformed.

Good day, Zoidar

Please go back and listen closer "Jesus" transforms his people now his people are sheep from the larger sheep pen of the world.

It is true His people are His sheep he is not transforming them into sheep they already are.

He dies and gives them life...

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Jesus uses the metaphore "goat" in Matthew 25:31-33 where he talks about the final judgement. He does not use it in John 10.

In John 10, Jesus said of those who were “not of My sheep” to consider the evidence of the miracles so that they can become one of His sheep: “‘If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.’” (John 10:37-38) So people who do not believe in Jesus and who are declared by Him to not be one of His sheep (followers), still can be. Their predicament was not fixed and unchangeable.

Good Day, John

Before 10:37 remeber Jesus says:

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

If he does not bring them in they are not of his flock... (that will never change). The Shepard knows His sheep and he gathers His flock by seeking them sheep do not seek the Shepard.



Do not equate the Parable in Matt with the discourse of John 10 and the sheep pen, see DA Carson on John 10.

Jesus the Shepherd of God (Part 6) | Don Carson | John 10:1–21

Listen or read the following transcript as D. A. Carson speaks on the topic of the Person of Christ from John 10:1–21

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Premiere NT Greek Scholar DA Carson covers the Parable here:

In Him,

 

[John Mullally]

Are they sheep prior to becoming one of His sheep, or are they something else.

Please go ahead and answer your own question.

 

[Hammster]

Please go ahead and answer your own question.

 

[John Mullally]

Good Day, John

Before 10:37 remeber Jesus says:

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

If he does not bring them in they are not of his flock... (that will never change). The Shepard knows His sheep and he gathers His flock by seeking them sheep do not seek the Shepard.

You assume that people are assigned by God as to whether they are His Sheep. Sheep are followers - following is a choice. God is not excluding anyone as God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truh (1 Timothy 2:4).

People do change, they cross over from death into life when they believe in Him (John 5:24). God chose to give faith to those who hear his word (Romans 10:17) and we decide what we listen to - so have ears to hear.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

John 10 is very heated. In John 10:26 Jesus tells the religious leaders, who would eventually have Him crucified, they are not His sheep and in verse 31 they picked up stones to stone Him, Jesus was telling His enemies what they needed to hear - it was actually love.

 

[John Mullally]

Are they sheep prior to becoming one of His sheep, or are they something else.

Please go ahead and answer your own question.

It is only fair that you be willing to answer your own questions. And you ask a question or complain you are not getting an answer in most of your posts.

 

[Hammster]

It is only fair that you be willing to answer your own questions. And you ask a question or complain you are not getting an answer in most of your posts.

While it is fair, I’m just not sure I want to deal with the rudeness of your posts.

 

[BBAS 64]

You assume that people are assigned by God as to whether they are His Sheep. Sheep are followers - following is a choice. God is not excluding anyone as God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truh (1 Timothy 2:4).

People do change, they cross over from death into life when they believe in Him (John 5:24). God chose to give faith to those who hear his word (Romans 10:17) and we decide what we listen to - so have ears to hear.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

John 10 is very heated. In John 10:26 Jesus tells the religious leaders, who would eventually have Him crucified, they are not His sheep and in verse 31 they picked up stones to stone Him, Jesus was telling His enemies what they needed to hear - it was actually love.

Good day, John

I am not assuming the text says:

joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Them whom His father gave would be His sheep so assume not in the least the text is clear.

The Shepard is the seeker it is true that Sheep follow and the Shepard is responsible for His sheep (none can snatch them away) . Jesus being the Great Shepard looses none of his sheep if he did he would be a very worthless and careless Shepard.

Oh for sure a sheep may choose to wonder off from the flock.... but the Shepard has the Hook a quick loop and yank of the neck, the sheep will follow right along as the Shepard carries out purposeful, sure, and unfailing guidance to His sheep for which he is responsible for.

Not sure that any of these passages fit the context as they do not deal with the historical sheep/ Shepard discourse, here so they are moot.


You may find this useful to your understanding of the sheep.

In Him,


Bill

 

[John Mullally]

While it is fair, I’m just not sure I want to deal with the rudeness of your posts.

With as many questions as you ask and as many times you tell the other person they are not answering your questions - it seems like a trial. I help the others where I can. This is supposed to be an interchange not a one-way cross-examination.

 

[Hammster]

With as many questions as you ask and as many times you tell the other person they are not answering your questions - it seems like a trial. I help the others where I can. This is supposed to be an interchange not a one-way cross-examination.

I agree, and I don’t refuse to answer questions. And if my answer doesn’t actually address what the questioner wants, I’ll do my best to make a correction because sometimes there are misunderstandings. My question to you was so that I could better understand your position concerning sheep. I think I’ve been clear on my position. I wasn’t sure exactly what @zoidar’s position was, so I asked him, and had a follow up to see if I could better understand his position. That’s the post you responded to, and instead of assuming what your view was, I asked you a follow up and was given a rude response in return.