How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[Hammster]

If I may ask, how did you become a follower of Christ?

Not relevant to the thread.

Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep....I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

I know. But I still don’t know what your point is.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn't use those words, no. But I do think that is what it is about.

I like this rendering by John Chrysostom on:

"John 10:26​

But I told you, and you believe not, because you are not of My sheep.

For I on My part have fulfilled all that it behooved a Shepherd to do, and if you follow Me not, it is not because I am not a Shepherd, but because you are not My sheep."

The obverse is that you believe because you are my sheep.

 

[Dah'veed]

Post#1 How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

Not relevant to the thread.

I know. But I still don’t know what your point is.

The point is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Eph 3:6

Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,
and that the Gentiles might glorify God...Rom 15:8-10

 

[Unqualified]

They went after Jesus death and Jesus was well known to all the surrounding countries. They came to Him. But before Jesus died everyone went to a type of hell called Sheol. When he died he preached to the captives there and they Had a chance to accept the messiah. Many did die before Paul and the disciples got to the rest of the world. The law was written on the hearts, if they followed their hearts just like now, they could go to heaven. The native Americans, aborigines, cannibals. If not then Pft! lol

 

[Hammster]

The point is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. Eph 3:6

Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers,
and that the Gentiles might glorify God...Rom 15:8-10

I still don’t know how this relates to the OP, or subsequent discussions.

 

[Hammster]

They went after Jesus death and Jesus was well known to all the surrounding countries. They came to Him. But before Jesus died everyone went to a type of hell called Sheol. When he died he preached to the captives there and they Had a chance to accept the messiah. Many did die before Paul and the disciples got to the rest of the world. The law was written on the hearts, if they followed their hearts just like now, they could go to heaven. The native Americans, aborigines, cannibals. If not then Pft! lol

That’s not an orthodox position. If it were, missionaries would be pointless.

 

[Unqualified]

That’s not an orthodox position. If it were, missionaries would be pointless.

No I’m not orthodox. This is in a time before missionaries. She asked how do we all get a chance to be saved, if if Jesus or the disciples didn’t go.

 

[John Mullally]

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

The sheep He lays His life down for are His own. They aren’t potential customers.

Jesus did not just die for the sheep, as He died for all people (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2).

That is why Jesus is the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10) as God desires all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

But receiving salvation from God via the atonement is conditional - as only those who believe are saved.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

 

[Hammster]

Jesus did not just die for the sheep, as He died for all people (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2).

That is why Jesus is the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10) as God desires all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

But receiving salvation from God via the atonement is conditional - as only those who believe are saved.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

Until you start actually engaging with the texts and arguments, I don’t see a need to respond. You’ll just post more cut and paste verses, so it’s too difficult to have an actual discussion.

 

[zoidar]

The obverse is that you believe because you are my sheep.

You have not yet showed why someone is a sheep and why others aren't. That's the thing. As long as you don't know that, pointing out only sheep believe doesn't do anything for your position.

I know you believe sheep are sheep from birth and goats are goats. I have not seen anything from you to back that up. The argument I usually hear is that one kind of animal can't become another kind of animal. That's just a so bad argument on all levels. Believers are not sheep in a biological sense, why on earth would we then compare a symbolic meaning of being a sheep, with the biological meaning of a sheep. It makes no sense at all.

 

[Dah'veed]

I still don’t know how this relates to the OP, or subsequent discussions.

Again, the point is that there is no partiality with God.
“To those who are self-seeking and reject the truth, there will be—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who works iniquity, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 2:8-10

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

So then when Jesus uses the phase "secrets of the kingdom" you understand it to mean " life in a spiritual" sense"?

Mat 13:11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

IN Him,

Bill

Hi Bill,

I have been thinking a bit how to respond to this. What I wrote was my simple understanding, not from deep studies on the text, but from how it got to me from simply reading it. It's not that I say my understanding is wrong, it's just that I'm not sure enough to go into further argument for it. Sorry about that!

To your question. No, that is not how I understand it. "The mysteries of heaven", such mysteries as those "hidden" in the parables are revealed to those who have "spiritual life".

 

[BBAS 64]

You have not yet showed why someone is a sheep and why others aren't. That's the thing. As long as you don't know that, pointing out only sheep believe doesn't do anything for your position.

I know you believe sheep are sheep from birth and goats are goats. I have not seen anything from you to back that up. The argument I usually hear is that one kind of animal can't become another kind of animal. That's just a so bad argument on all levels. Believers are not sheep in a biological sense, why on earth would we then compare a symbolic meaning of being a sheep, with the biological meaning of a sheep. It makes no sense at all.

Good Day, Zoidar

I know we have discussed this in the past... and not able to spend much time here.

Premier NT Scholar DA Carson does a great job in understanding the of the sheep Psalm 23.

Sheep do (sheepish) things believe and know the Shepard.
Doing sheepish things does not make one a sheep.
The Shepard seeks his sheep, the sheep do not seek a Shepard.
The Shepard calls and His sheep hear him, they are his that is the reason they hear and know Him.

I know the metaphor often misunderstood Carson does a great job on it.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Dah'veed]

Hi Bill,

I have been thinking a bit how to respond to this. What I wrote was my simple understanding, not from deep studies on the text, but from how it got to me from simply reading it. It's not that I say my understanding is wrong, it's just that I'm not sure enough to go into further argument for it. Sorry about that!

Based on your previous posts, Z-301 "sin was conquered" ... JM-328 "the Son of Man must be lifted up,"
your simple understanding is hitting the mark.

"What then if you should see the Son of Man Dn7:13-14 ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; " John 6:62-63

To each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
When He ascended on high...Eph 4:7-8

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

I know we have discussed this in the past... and not able to spend much time here.

Premier NT Scholar DA Carson does a great job in understanding the of the sheep Psalm 23.

Sheep do (sheepish) things believe and know the Shepard.
Doing sheepish things does not make one a sheep.
The Shepard seeks his sheep, the sheep do not seek a Shepard.
The Shepard calls and His sheep hear him, they are his that is the reason they hear and know Him.

I know the metaphor often misunderstood Carson does a great job on it.

In Him,

Bill

Thanks Bill for sharing the video! It's quite long, I'm not sure I will listen to all of it. We'll see.

But sheep believing? Is that a sheepish thing? I have never heard an animal can believe. Follow they can, believing not so much.

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,

I have been thinking a bit how to respond to this. What I wrote was my simple understanding, not from deep studies on the text, but from how it got to me from simply reading it. It's not that I say my understanding is wrong, it's just that I'm not sure enough to go into further argument for it. Sorry about that!

To your question. No, that is not how I understand it. "The mysteries of heaven", such mysteries as those "hidden" in the parables are revealed to those who have "spiritual life".

Good Day, Zoidar

Thanks for that...

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Thanks Bill for sharing the video! It's quite long, I'm not sure I will listen to all of it. We'll see.

But sheep believing? Is that a sheepish thing? I have never heard an animal can believe. Follow they can, believing not so much.

Good Day, Zoidar


I can understand why it could be difficult ( figure of speech) Jesus says:

Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Try DA Carson (shorter) on John 10 1-21


Part 6: Jesus the Shepherd of God (John 10:1-21) - The Gospel Coalition



In Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

You have not yet showed why someone is a sheep and why others aren't. That's the thing. As long as you don't know that, pointing out only sheep believe doesn't do anything for your position.

But when I show that the reason they don’t believe is because they aren’t His sheep, you don’t really believe it. You want to introduce some other reason for their disbelief. And although I know the reason, the reason isn’t the focus here.

I know you believe sheep are sheep from birth and goats are goats. I have not seen anything from you to back that up. The argument I usually hear is that one kind of animal can't become another kind of animal. That's just a so bad argument on all levels. Believers are not sheep in a biological sense, why on earth would we then compare a symbolic meaning of being a sheep, with the biological meaning of a sheep. It makes no sense at all.

Let’s try it this way, then. Let’s say that every person is a sheep, but in John 10 not everyone is Jesus’ sheep. Can we start there?

 

[Hammster]

Again, the point is that there is no partiality with God.
“To those who are self-seeking and reject the truth, there will be—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who works iniquity, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom 2:8-10

You keep making these comments, but you haven’t tied them to the OP. I’m trying to keep this on topic.

 

[Dah'veed]

You keep making these comments, but you haven’t tied them to the OP. I’m trying to keep this on topic.

In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
You know the message which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— Acts 10:34-36

Behold My Servant, My Chosen One, He will judge the world in righteousness. Isa 42:1
Coming to Him as to a living stone chosen by God; 1 Peter 2:4-6