How many Eves are there? (Clan Mothers)

Jazer said:

Ok, what evidence do you have that there were thousands of people alive 6,000 years ago?

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Before we move on, would evidence of thousands of people falsify your claims? If not, then why should I pursue it?

You need to spell out the potential falsifications of your model. Without such potential falsifications you can not claim that the evidence supports your claims.

Loudmouth said:

Before we move on, would evidence of thousands of people falsify your claims? If not, then why should I pursue it?

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No that would not falsify the Bible. I just thought you wanted to make a point about how many people were alive 6,000 years ago. You keep going on and on about all these people. Some of these common ancestors go back over 100,000 years. Do you think there were thousands of people that contributed DNA at that time also?

You need to spell out the potential falsifications of your model.

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You would have to prove that Adam and Eve in the Bible were not real historical people. OR anyone in the Bible geneology was not a real historical person.

3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (5752) (as was supposed ) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
3:24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
3:25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
3:26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
3:27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
3:28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
3:29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
3:30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
3:31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
3:32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
3:33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
3:34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
3:35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
3:36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
3:37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

I would venture to say it would be absurd to say there were thousands of women alive in the Middle East 6,000 years ago but Eve in the Bible was not one of them. Clearly she was a real historical person. Well maybe not so clear to some people. But all the evidence point to her being a real person.

Jazer said:

You would have to prove that Adam and Eve in the Bible were not real historical people. OR anyone in the Bible geneology was not a real historical person.

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How about you prove that they were?

Jazer said:

Yes, I noticed that. I guess no one here is interested in a discussion on the topic of population genetics.

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I enjoy discussions of population genetics. This isn't one.

Nostromo said:

How about you prove that they were?

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I just did, were you sleeping?

sfs said:

I enjoy discussions of population genetics. This isn't one.

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A lot of the discussion took place in another thread.
This is some of the information from Wiki on the subject.

Huram Abi said:

I need several peer-reviewed sources from legitimate scientific journals to confirm these claims: "the MtDNA confirms who the Clam Mother is for the Hebrew People. We know where she lived and when she lived. Science and the Bible both say Even lived in the same place at the same time"

If you say this is true, you should provide rock-solid evidence for it.

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I gave that to you, I have put that information out on this board many times. Maybe you are new and did not see that I put that information up again and again. We are talking about the J2B3 Halpogroup. Now they may change this at anytime. They may find a new mutation at any time. But currently this is the most recent information we have from Science. You can get what you need from Wiki.

Around 45,000 years before present, a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Near East or Caucasus. Further mutations took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T&#8217 is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago).Wiki



J1
Main article: Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA)
ISOGG states that J1 originated in the Middle East. It is found in parts of the Near East, and North Africa, with a sparse distribution in the southern Mediterranean flank of Europe, and in Ethiopia. But not all studies agree on the point of origin. The Levant has been proposed but a 2010 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more Northern origin.[citation needed] The origin of J1c3 is likely in the more northerly populations and then spreads southward into the Arabian Peninsula. The high YSTR variance of J1c3 in Turks and Syrians supports the inference of an origin of J1c3 in nearby eastern Anatolia. Moreover, the network analysis of J1c3 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with star burst expansion in the Arabian Desert. " [12] Haplogroup J1, defined by the 267 marker is most frequent in the Arabian Peninsula Yemen(76%),[13] Saudi (64%),[14] Qatar (58%),[15] and Dagestan (56%).[8] J1 is generally frequent amongst Arab Bedouins (62%.[16] , Ashkenazi Jews (14-20%),[17] North Sudan (45%, Khartoum 74%),[18] Algeria (35%),[17] Iraq (33%),[17] Tunisia (31%),[19] Syria (30%), Egypt (20%),[20] and the Sinai Peninsula. The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic speaking countries with mainly non-Arabic speaking countries, such as Turkey (9%), Iran (11%).[1][9] It is also highly frequent among Jews, especially the Kohanim line (46%) [1] [21] .

[edit]J2
Main article: Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)
Haplogroup J2 is found in the highest concentrations in the Caucasus and the Fertile Crescent and is found throughout the Mediterranean (including the Italian, Balkan, Anatolian and Iberian peninsulas and North Africa).[22]

The highest ever reported concentration of J2 was 72% in Northeastern Georgia.[23] Other high reports include Ingush 32%,[23] Cypriots 30-37% (Capelli 2005), Lebanese 30% (Wells et al. 2001), Iraqis 29.7% (Sanchez et al. 2005), Syrians 22.5%[citation needed], Kurds 24%-28%, Iranians 23%,[24] Ashkenazi Jews 24%, Palestinian Arabs 16.8%-25%, Sephardic Jews 29%[2] and North Indian Shia Muslims 18%,[1] Chechens 26%, Balkars 24%, Yaghnobis 32%, Armenians 21-24%, and Azerbaijanis 24%-48%.

Consistent with its Middle Eastern extent, J2 also includes the Cohen Modal Haplotype. WIKI

More recent research, using a larger number of Y-STR markers to gain higher resolution more specific genetic signatures, has indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim, who share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3 (also called J-P58), do indeed appear to be very closely related. A further approximately 15% of Kohanim fall into a second distinct group, sharing a different but similarly tightly related ancestry. This second group fall under haplogroup J2a (J-M410). A number of other smaller lineage groups are also observed. Only one of these haplogroups could indicate ancestry from Aaron.

The J1e and J2a possible Cohen clusters (only one of them could indicate ancestry from Aaron), when including those tested who are of Sephardi background, have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200 ± 1,100 and 4,200 ± 1,300 years ago respectively. Ashkenazis only have been estimated by the same article as descending from most recent common ancestors living 2,400 ± 800 and 3,800 ± 1,200 years ago respectively.[1] WIKI

If WIKI is to complicated try some of these links: The DNA Chain of Tradition
The Discovery of the "Cohen Gene" DNA chain of Tradition, Families and family trees, Cohen and Levi family worldwide

The fascinating story of how DNA studies confirm an ancient biblical tradition. The Cohanim - DNA Connection

Nostromo said:

How about you prove that they were?

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Jazer said:

I just did, were you sleeping?

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This is a joke, right? uncorroborated accounts in a book do not qualify as proof, the next thing you will be telling us is that it's proof that Jesus walked on water, if so then I have a book that proves there was an invisible man and one about an elephant that could actually fly.

It would seem that you were indoctrinated into believing the unbelievable.

I'm so confused. What is this thread even about?

Aeneas said:

I'm so confused. What is this thread even about?

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We are talking about Population Genetics. A good example of this would be Bryan Sykes book "Seven Daughters of Eve: The Science That Reveals Our Genetic Ancestry". This is what the Out of Africa Theory is based on. It would appear that the evos do not know much about this topic. Sort of a shame to them that the creos know more about evolution then the evos know.

Haplogroup J (along with ‘T&#8217 is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago).

No Time said:

This is a joke, right? uncorroborated accounts in a book do not qualify as proof, the next thing you will be telling us is that it's proof that Jesus walked on water, if so then I have a book that proves there was an invisible man and one about an elephant that could actually fly.

It would seem that you were indoctrinated into believing the unbelievable.

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What are you talking about? The discussion is about evolution and population genetics. DO you have anything to add to the conversation? We are esp concerned with who were the first farmers and herdsman. Just how did the human species evolve from a hunter gather to a food producer. Do you have anything to contribute to this or not?

Haplogroup J (along with ‘T&#8217 is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago).

Jazer said:

A lot of the discussion took place in another thread.
This is some of the information from Wiki on the subject.

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I understand the subject -- I'm population geneticist. But this thread isn't a discussion of population genetics. It does contain a smattering of facts from population genetics, but the discussion is a mishmash of confusion about pop gen (e.g. the idea that farming evolved) and material that has little or nothing to do with pop gen (plus random interjections about virgins and the like).

Oh, look, it's this thread again.

1) Population genetics don't say what you insist they say.
2) Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam were one of many thousands of individual humans that lived alongside them.
3) Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam lived tens of thousands of years apart.

Jazer, I don't think you understand what Mitochondrial Eve is. Picture it like this: you have inherited your mitochondrial DNA solely from your mother. She got it from her mother, who got it from her mother, etc. This is your matrilineal lineage, your maternal ancestors going up and up.

Your father also has mitochondrial DNA, but this DNA won't be passed on, because it's ONLY passed on from mother to child. So one woman can have lots and lots of daughters, who all have lots and lots of daughters, all passing on her mitochondrial DNA, but any son is instantly a dead-end, and any woman who has only sons is a dead end. But, as there are always women in the world, some lineages survive, and ultimately we are all descended from one surviving lineage (that's not to say other lineages don't exist, of course) - the woman at the top of that lineage is termed Mitochondrial Eve.



Human DNA flows about through the interbreeding of lineages, both male and female. Mitochondrial Eve is not particularily special, nor was she the only woman alive at the time, nor was she the only breeding woman at the time, nor is she the only woman from whom we are all descended - she is simply the woman from whom we all inherit our mitochondrial DNA. Though those women who only have sons did not pass us their mitochondrial DNA, their main chromosomes are passed down through their sons. Mitochondrial DNA is simply special in that it is wholly matrilineal.

Do you understand now why we simply dismiss away your "science proves Bible!" tirades as ignorant* nonsense? The concept of Mitochondrial Eve is not what you assert it to be. It's a fascinating concept, but it really isn't what you keep saying it is.

*In the true meaning of "lacking the facts".

AV1611VET said:

Science needs to keep its myopic nose out of the Bible; they've had plenty of time to verify It and can't.

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We've had a lot less time than you lot have had to verify it. You couldn't even manage that, and yet we managed to disprove it beyond reasonable doubt in less time.

Don't worry, AV, someone has to be second place.

Jazer said:

Do you have anything to contribute to this or not?

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I asked about the Chinese and you brushed them aside as if they were nothing, the Chinese have a history going back 12 to 14 thousand years so where do you get off talking about 6000 years? people had been around for thousands of years before the Bible stories were even thought of.

Jazer said:

No that would not falsify the Bible.

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Then what would?

You keep going on and on about all these people. Some of these common ancestors go back over 100,000 years. Do you think there were thousands of people that contributed DNA at that time also?

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Yes. What you keep ignoring are all of the indirect ancestors that have contributed DNA to the modern population. You think an MRCA somehow evidences a single ancestor for an entire population. It doesn't.

Let's take a really simple example, that of you and your first cousins. Your MRCA is the set of grandparents that you have in common. However, your cousins and you also have DNA from ancestors that you do not have in common, most notably the grandparents you do not have in common.

You are also ignoring the fact that an MRCA is an unavoidable consequent of the tendency for people to hook up with the people nearest them, especially in the time period we are looking at. This causes pedigree collapse:

"In genealogy, pedigree collapse describes how reproduction between two individuals who knowingly or unknowingly share an ancestor causes the number of distinct ancestors in the family tree of their offspring to be smaller than it could otherwise be."
Pedigree collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As Wiccan_Child also indicates, mitochondrial lineages also die out when a woman has only sons, or lacks granddaughters through a daughter of her own. This doesn't mean that such a woman has not contributed DNA to the modern population because the genes she passed on to her sons can still be passed on.

The fact that these populations have more genetic diversity than would be expected from a single mating pair is evidence against an Adam and Eve beginning.

You would have to prove that Adam and Eve in the Bible were not real historical people.

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What evidence, if found, would indicate this? What evidence do you have that the Eve of the Bible ever existed?

I would venture to say it would be absurd to say there were thousands of women alive in the Middle East 6,000 years ago but Eve in the Bible was not one of them.

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Evidence please. Incredulity is not evidence.

Clearly she was a real historical person. Well maybe not so clear to some people. But all the evidence point to her being a real person.

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What evidence?

Wiccan_Child said:

Human DNA flows about through the interbreeding of lineages, both male and female. Mitochondrial Eve is not particularily special, nor was she the only woman alive at the time, nor was she the only breeding woman at the time, nor is she the only woman from whom we are all descended - she is simply the woman from whom we all inherit our mitochondrial DNA. Though those women who only have sons did not pass us their mitochondrial DNA, their main chromosomes are passed down through their sons. Mitochondrial DNA is simply special in that it is wholly matrilineal.

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Exactly. To help drive this home, you can use your own family tree starting with your grandparents. Of your grandparents, which grandparent did you get your mitochondrial DNA from? That would be your maternal grandmother. Does this mean that your paternal grandmother is not one of your ancestors? Does this also mean that none of your DNA came from your paternal grandmother? Of course not. On average, as much of your DNA came from your paternal grandmother as it did from your maternal grandmother. Both grandmothers are your ancestors in equal parts except when it comes to mitochondrial DNA (which really doesn't have that much to do with what makes us human anyway).

The same applies to the y-chromosome and the contributions to your genome from both of your grandfathers. If you are a man, then your y-chromosome came from your paternal grandfather. Does this mean that your maternal grandfather is not one of your ancestors? Does this mean that your paternal grandfather did not contribute DNA to your genome? The answer is the same as above.

Jazer said:

No that would not falsify the Bible.

Loudmouth said:

Then what would?

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Nothing -- the Bible can't be falsified.

Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

No Time said:

Of course it can't none of the worlds religious books can be falsified ...

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Bet me.

Not by science, they can't -- but we can falsify them in a heartbeat.

That's why your science, compared to God, is just a bystander.

No Time said:

... that's why they have all lasted so long ...

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Don't worry -- there's Someone coming Who is going to put an end to all this evolution and science chatter once and for all.

No Time said:

... had we been able to either prove them true or false there would be no religions because they would all be either facts of life or lies.

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Or yet another religion, yours: Scientism.

You're just sore because you can't use your religion to dispel ours, or any other's.

You like to huff and puff how your religion cures us of diseases,* but then you try and apply it to the Bible -- like the Bible is some kind of a disease -- and you find out quickly how immune It is.

So then all you guys do is come to the Internet and trade your failure for insults; and you end up failing in that department as well.

I truly feel sorry for you guys.

* I'm sure third-world disease-ravished countries would like to see a little of your great scientism in action; but you only operate where the money is, don't you?

Wiccan_Child said:

Oh, look, it's this thread again.



2) Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam were one of many thousands of individual humans that lived alongside them.
3) Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam lived tens of thousands of years apart.
.

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The misnomer of Eve and Adam was utilized by the scientists in order to emphasize the importance of their discovery.

As I told you, they would have made a better choice had they said Noah and the wife of Noah, in regard to how this discovery supports the Genesis Genealogy.

No Time said:

You have absolutely no reason to feel bad that you believe a myth AV1611VET because simple people have been guilty of it for many many years...

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Can you name any simpletons by name, and tell me what myth they believed?

Let me start:

• Democritus = atoms are indivisible
• Ptolemey = geocentrism
• Aristotle = all substances made up of eath, air, fire & water
• Georg Ernst Stahl = phlogiston
• ?* = Thalidomide, the wonder drug for pregnant women
• Clyde Tombaugh = Pluto is our 9th planet
• ?* = the original O-ring, keeps space shuttles from blowing up

* In many instances, the general public, trying to find who invented what, ends at the corporate level if it ends in disaster; if not, their names are plastered all over the media. Case in point: Who supported Thalidomide as a wonder drug vs. Edgar Hubble, whose instrument confirmed the universe is expanding.