How Many Evenings are in a Day?

Leaf473 · Mar 15, 2022

I want to add that I think it's good to study the law, including the calendar within it, as a way of gaining wisdom.

There is great wisdom in studying the law!

It's the idea of studying the law with intent to keep it that I think runs into the issue talked about in Galatians,
"You observe days..."

Thanks for the answer, @daq
and peace be with you all!

HARK! · Mar 15, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
third time's the charm...plates are not the most important part of Pesakh, lamb is...

So in other words, if it was a Pesach meal; we could assume that lamb was served? No need to write it in, along with the dinner plates?

Filippus · Mar 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay... So I don't intend this question to sound snarky in any way. It's an honest question.

And it's fine if it gets moved or ignored, I'm not sensitive

From Galatians,
"You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Isn't that what's going on here? An intense scrutiny of days, weeks... ?

Some links that may relate:
Galatians 4 Interlinear Bible

Strong's Greek: 3906. παρατηρέω (paratéreó) -- to watch closely, to observe scrupulously

The purpose of this discussion is not to become legalistic but to improve on our understanding of the chronology.

Shalom

HARK! · Mar 15, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
yeah so was I when I asked you my question first that you still have not answered

Like I said before, I'm just starting to dig into this subject. I don't have all of the answers. I'm looking for answers.

Filippus · Mar 15, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Daq, I asked HARK! when would Yom HaBikkurim be on the "Zadokite" calander but he never answered. I asked was it on the 16th or on the 19th? Here it seems it is on the 26th!!! Why is that?

Nehemiah Gordon actually explains it reasonably well. Just if you are interested, see below.

The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

However he doesn't include the Christian view.

Therfore 3 of the 4 groups places it on the first day of the week, which I feel is compelling, making the 16th highly questionable.

The Saddusees says the 19th the Essenes the 26th.

The Christian view doesn't differentiate, but confirms that it was on the first day of the week and I believe this is where HARK is saying the jury is still out.

Now we know Israel set out on the 15th of the first month. Numbers 33:3

Now the Essenes places Firstfruits on the 26th because they believe it is supported by Exodus 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Now if you considered the luni-solar calendar and the way the Essenes starts the count it places the 15th of the first, third and seventh month all on the full moon.

If you use the Zadok calendar it harmonizes the festivals.

Yet the jury is still out.

Shalom

daq · Mar 15, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Thanks for the answer! Anyone else is welcome to contribute as well.

It's a little hard to see the graphic on my cell phone. Is it basically showing that Jesus is crucified in exact fulfillment of a number of years prophesied by Daniel?

So... Are you saying it is good to intensely scrutinize days and weeks? How does this work for the person who can barely read?

Paul teaches the same apocalyptic gospel as found in the Gospel accounts, Torah, and Prophets. You'll have fourteen years from the start date but no one knows the start date because no one knows the day and the hour of the finish date before the time appointed of the Father, (and the so-called sinners prayer is not start date). Howbeit you'll be two jubilees, a child at hundred years old, at your bar mitzvah, when you die and become a son. May the Father bless your love-feasts in His Word and multiply your days as the days of the heavens upon the earth.

HARK! · Mar 15, 2022

Filippus said:
Nehemiah Gordon actually explains it reasonably well. Just if you are interested, see below.

The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

However he doesn't include the Christian view.

Therfore 3 of the 4 groups places it on the first day of the week, which I feel is compelling, making the 16th highly questionable.

The Saddusees says the 19th the Essenes the 26th.

The Christian view doesn't differentiate, but confirms that it was on the first day of the week and I believe this is where HARK is saying the jury is still out.

Now we know Israel set out on the 15th of the first month. Numbers 33:3

Now the Essenes places Firstfruits on the 26th because they believe it is supported by Exodus 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Now if you considered the luni-solar calendar and the way the Essenes starts the count it places the 15th of the first, third and seventh month all on the full moon.

If you use the Zadok calendar it harmonizes the festivals.

Yet the jury is still out.

Shalom

They weren't Essenes. That was a rumor started by someone who didn't do his homework. That rumor seems to have a difficult time dying. I have lots of evidence to support that they were the Zadok Priests, the ones who were given charge by YHWH to preserve and teach his word.

Here is a great place to get started on debunking this myth.:

daq · Mar 15, 2022

Filippus said:
Now the Essenes places Firstfruits on the 26th because they believe it is supported by Exodus 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

The writings of the DSS Community do not appear to base their dating of firstfruits on Exodus 19:1, howbeit, they did not date Exo 19:1 according to what you have said, and this was the whole argument in my responses to this regarding what Jubilees 1:1 says. They appear to be ignoring Exodus 19:1 and using 1 Abib as the anchor date, (the year beginning always on the fourth day of the week, and the first and second months always having thirty days each).

Jubilees 1:1 quotes from Exodus 24:12 and says it was the sixteenth day of the third month. There is no way to get sixteen days from Exodus 19:1 to Exodus 24:12 except by wild speculation, if indeed they were counting Exodus 19:1 as the day of the hodesh. Therefore that is not how they, (or at least the author of Jubilees), understood Exodus 19:1.

That is actually the problem: you can read hodesh in Exodus 19:1 as the day of the hodesh, or simply as meaning the third (full) month: but if you do not read it as the very day of the hodesh, (the day of the new month), then you can make it fit any day of the third month you wish because you have removed the anchor date for the whole passage.

Look at Exodus 16:1, we have "the fifteenth day of the second month", so what does this tell us? It is more likely that Mosheh is not leaving Exodus 19:1 open to guessing and speculation: it's more likely the day of the hodesh, the first day of the third month, for it says in the same statement, "in this day". What day? The day of the hodesh which is the first day of the month.

The author of Jubilees either misses this or ignores it because when you count Exodus 19:1 as the first day of the third month there is no way to get sixteen days between this statement and Exodus 24:12.

Leaf473 · Mar 16, 2022

daq said:
Paul teaches the same apocalyptic gospel as found in the Gospel accounts, Torah, and Prophets. You'll have fourteen years from the start date but no one knows the start date because no one knows the day and the hour of the finish date before the time appointed of the Father, (and the so-called sinners prayer is not start date). Howbeit you'll be two jubilees, a child at hundred years old, at your bar mitzvah, when you die and become a son. May the Father bless your love-feasts in His Word and multiply your days as the days of the heavens upon the earth.

Umm... you lost me there. Fourteen years from the start date of what?

daq · Mar 16, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Umm... you lost me there. Fourteen years from the start date of what?

Hmmm, two or three posts back you were quoting Galatians 4:10. I referred back to Galatians 4:1-2 in part of my remarks: the time appointed of the Father when a babe or child becomes a son. But if no one knows the day or the hour when a child becomes a son then how can anyone tell you when the beginning of that process commences? You'll know when it started after it has been fulfilled: that way no man gets the glory.

Leaf473 · Mar 16, 2022

daq said:
Hmmm, two or three posts back you were quoting Galatians 4:10. I referred back to Galatians 4:1-2 in part of my remarks: the time appointed of the Father when a babe or child becomes a son. But if no one knows the day or the hour when a child becomes a son then how can anyone tell you when the beginning of that process commences? You'll know when it started after it has been fulfilled: that way no man gets the glory.

Okay... 14 years from the start of something, then the child becomes a son.

14 years from the start of what?

daq · Mar 16, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Okay... 14 years from the start of something, then the child becomes a son.

14 years from the start of what?

Too far off topic: just keep eating.

Leaf473 · Mar 16, 2022

daq said:
Too far off topic: just keep eating.

If relevance to the thread topic is the only issue, I invite you to explain on a different thread.

If, however, you just want to leave it there, that's fine as well.

Peace be with you all!

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 16, 2022

HARK! said:
So in other words, if it was a Pesach meal; we could assume that lamb was served? No need to write it in, along with the dinner plates?

It is a screaming silence...a dinner plate and the Pesakh lamb are significantly different in importance...

HARK! · Mar 16, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
It is a screaming silence...a dinner plate and the Pesakh lamb are significantly different in importance...

This reminds me of a picture of a cow eating grass.

How does this passage fit in with your timeline?:

(CLV) Lk 22:7
Now came the day of unleavened bread, in which the passover must be sacrificed.

(CLV) Lk 22:8
And He dispatches Peter and John, saying, "Go and make ready for us the passover, that we may be eating."

(CLV) Lk 22:9
Yet they say to Him, "Where dost Thou want that we should be making ready to eat the passover?"

Yeshua HaDerekh · Mar 17, 2022

HARK! said:
How does this passage fit in with your timeline?:

(CLV) Lk 22:7
Now came the day of unleavened bread, in which the passover must be sacrificed.

(CLV) Lk 22:8
And He dispatches Peter and John, saying, "Go and make ready for us the passover, that we may be eating."

(CLV) Lk 22:9
Yet they say to Him, "Where dost Thou want that we should be making ready to eat the passover?"

I have explained this to you MULTIPLE times previously...

daq · Mar 17, 2022

Leaf473 said:
If relevance to the thread topic is the only issue, I invite you to explain on a different thread.

If, however, you just want to leave it there, that's fine as well.

Peace be with you all!

One of the elementary points I was making is that to understand what I said you would need to study days, and months, and appointed times, and years, (Galatians 4:10), as expounded in the scripture. The secondary point, I suppose, would be that Paul is not necessarily saying what people often seem to assume in that statement, (Gal 4:10).

daq · Mar 17, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 22:7
Now came the day of unleavened bread, in which the passover must be sacrificed.

(CLV) Lk 22:8
And He dispatches Peter and John, saying, "Go and make ready for us the passover, that we may be eating."

(CLV) Lk 22:9
Yet they say to Him, "Where dost Thou want that we should be making ready to eat the passover?"

I disagree with the translation because the word for bread isn't in the Greek text. It says the day of the azumon, (η ημερα των αζυμων), but azumos is simply zume, (leaven), with the negative alpha particle attached. It may therefore be read in at least three ways, 1) the feast called Matzot, 2) anything not leavened, (including bread), and 3) no leaven or without leaven.

If we read it here and in the companion passages as the day without leaven, or even the first day of no leaven, the issues surrounding this statement dissolve.

Mark 14:12 KJV
12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

We all know that the first day of Matzot is the fifteenth and is not the day wherein the Pesach is to be sacrificed. This is quite obviously the fourteenth and not the fifteenth: what therefore is the most likely problem? It's a translation issue and not a problem with the Greek text.

Mark 14:12, when compared with the Torah ordinances for the Pesach, demands that we read azumon here as the first day without leaven, which is not Hag Matzot, or the feast of Unleavened Bread, but is rather the fourteenth: the day wherein the Pesach must be sacrificed.

By the morning of the fourteenth all leaven was to have already been purged out of dwellings and even all the land. The final sweep of the houses and final check for leaven was done almost ceremonially, on the night of the fourteenth, and if any leaven was found it was to be burned in the morning of the fourteenth, by about an hour before midday. The fourteenth is the first day of no leaven or the first day without leaven, (a/zumon, reading option #3 explained above).

HARK! · Mar 17, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
I have explained this to you MULTIPLE times previously...

Really? As in the past, my position has been similar to yours; I believe that you are mistaken. Maybe you're thinking of someone else.

HARK! · Mar 17, 2022

daq said:
I disagree with the translation because the word for bread isn't in the Greek text.

This is true; but isn't that splitting hairs?

daq said:
If we read it here and in the companion passages as the day without leaven, or even the first day of no leaven, the issues surrounding this statement dissolve.

How so?

daq said:
Mark 14:12 KJV
12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

The translation that you provided here does the same as the one that I provided.

So was Yahshua executed on the Passover or not?

daq said:
We all know that the first day of Matzot is the fifteenth and is not the day wherein the Pesach is to be sacrificed. This is quite obviously the fourteenth and not the fifteenth: what therefore is the most likely problem? It's a translation issue and not a problem with the Greek text.

Wouldn't that depend on when the day begins, morning or evening?

daq said:
By the morning of the fourteenth all leaven was to have already been purged out of dwellings and even all the land. The final sweep of the houses and final check for leaven was done almost ceremonially, on the night of the fourteenth, and if any leaven was found it was to be burned in the morning of the fourteenth, by about an hour before midday. The fourteenth is the first day of no leaven or the first day without leaven, (a/zumon, reading option #3 explained above).

I'm familiar with this tradition. Is it found in scripture? I would search it myself; but I wanted to get this out there before I leave for work.

How Many Evenings are in a Day?

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