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How many different species were on Noah's Ark

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Simon_Templar

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One of the things I find entertaining is that when people look at the flood from a skeptical stand point with the idea "explain how this could happen?"... thats kind of the point of "supernatural".. it didn't NORMALLY NATURALLY happen.

Now creationists spend a lot of time and effort explaining how all this could happen, and in some cases they do a good job. I don't want to cut that down.

However, my point is this.. something doesn't have to be naturally possible for a supernatural all powerful God to cause it to happen. Thats kind of the point.

The modern world view, based on science, demands that everything be naturally explainable, as in it has to be shown how it could have happened by natural process... well, sorry, but I don't believe it did happen by natural process, thus I feel no compunction to explain how it could happen by natural process.
If you actually believe in God.. whether something could or couldn't happen by natural process is totally irrelevant.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Indeed, the human Y-chromosome (all of which is supposedly descended from Noah) shows far greater variation than Genesis seems to imply.



So, yeah, global flood? Reality says otherwise.

First point, although the timelines are radically different, genetic research has shown evidence which supports an account similar to that of the biblical noah. Specifically, there is genetic evidence that Humanity experienced a near extinction event in the recent past (relatively speaking) and interestingly that the male population all have a single common ancestor, who is much more recent than the female common ancestor.

This indicates that at some point in the past humanity was wiped out down to one surviving male, (or rather a father and his sons who are all of the same genetic line) but that the female genetic line was more diverse, probably because the spouses of the father and his sons were from different family lines.

Further, the global evidence for a flood is all around you, its just a matter of you choosing not to see it. Almost society in the world has a flood legend which depicts the complete destruction of civilization. those who deny the biblical account insist on seeing this as evidence of a multitude of disasterous regional floods. It is just as easily evidence of a global flood.
Numerous places in the world which are now dry, including mountain ranges, show evidence of having been underwater. This is interpeted by those who don't hold the biblical account as the result of slow geologic change over eons which raised up lands that were once under water etc. Inland seas that drained etc.
It is just as easy to interpet as evidence of the 'biblical flood'.

Further, the archeological evidence at the beginning of civilization, clearly shows that the people migrated down from the mountains into the flatlands and immediately set about building cities, and establishing trade. Which fits with the flood account, and is somewhat unexplainable given the normal view that man gradually evolved into this over millenia.

Even if you don't take the flood account completely literally and assume it just to be a representative story.. it is pretty clear that something catastrophic happened which probably wiped away pre-existing civilization and made man start over.

Further, it is fairly evident from mythology and legend that most of humanity shares much much closer connection in the ancient world than is generally allowed by the standard view.
 
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Mallon

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One of the things I find entertaining is that when people look at the flood from a skeptical stand point with the idea "explain how this could happen?"... thats kind of the point of "supernatural".. it didn't NORMALLY NATURALLY happen.

Now creationists spend a lot of time and effort explaining how all this could happen, and in some cases they do a good job. I don't want to cut that down.

However, my point is this.. something doesn't have to be naturally possible for a supernatural all powerful God to cause it to happen. Thats kind of the point.

The modern world view, based on science, demands that everything be naturally explainable, as in it has to be shown how it could have happened by natural process... well, sorry, but I don't believe it did happen by natural process, thus I feel no compunction to explain how it could happen by natural process.
If you actually believe in God.. whether something could or couldn't happen by natural process is totally irrelevant.
Do you see "creation science" as a valid field of investigation then?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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First point, although the timelines are radically different, genetic research has shown evidence which supports an account similar to that of the biblical noah. Specifically, there is genetic evidence that Humanity experienced a near extinction event in the recent past (relatively speaking) and interestingly that the male population all have a single common ancestor, who is much more recent than the female common ancestor.
Indeed. However, you skip the important numbers: the human population was down to the thousands: it is theorised that, when the Tobe volcano erupted ~70,000 years ago, human numbers were reduced to ~2,000 - ~15,000. This, we think, is the most recent instance of bottlenecking in the human species.

Notice that this has nothing to do with Noah and his flood: there were thousands of individuals, not eight; there was a supervolcano, not a flood (though some local flooding, tsunamis, etc, may have occurred); it occurred seventy millennia ago, not four; it occurred in Indonesia, not across the globe (or even the Middle-East, or Turkey).

The most recent common ancestor to modern males, the so-called "Y-chromosomal Adam", lived ~60,000 years ago. Like many over-eager theists, you appear to have missed the point of this: he was not the only male of his time. The existence of Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve is to be expected, and don't result from population bottlenecking: they are simply a consequence of how our species reproduces (a male-only lineage and a female-only lineage). Nevertheless, he lived 'only' ten millennia after the Tobe catastrophe.

This indicates that at some point in the past humanity was wiped out down to one surviving male, (or rather a father and his sons who are all of the same genetic line) but that the female genetic line was more diverse, probably because the spouses of the father and his sons were from different family lines.
No, it does not. Papers which deal with Y-chromosomal Adam are quite explicit about this: he was not the only human male of his time, nor the only human male who's children have descendants today.

Further, the global evidence for a flood is all around you, its just a matter of you choosing not to see it.
Please, save your rhetoric.

Almost society in the world has a flood legend which depicts the complete destruction of civilization.
Is that so surprising? Civilisations grew up around rivers, lakes, seas, and oceans: they were the only places we could readily survive. The domestication of the sheep (which hallmarked our transition from nomads to settlers) required fresh grass and ample water. You might as well posit the existence of a Global Fire, given the preponderance of fire in mythology. Or would it be more logical to attribute these to individual fires? Fires and floods are common, hence why stories are still made about them today. Do you think we have global floods on a daily basis during the Victorian era, or where they individual accounts and legends?

those who deny the biblical account insist on seeing this as evidence of a multitude of disasterous regional floods. It is just as easily evidence of a global flood.
Not really: a flood leaves a plethora of markers. These are found the world over, yes, but never in the same place. A global flood would leave the tell-tale markers in the same place in the geological column the world over. So... where be it?

Numerous places in the world which are now dry, including mountain ranges, show evidence of having been underwater. This is interpeted by those who don't hold the biblical account as the result of slow geologic change over eons which raised up lands that were once under water etc. Inland seas that drained etc.
It is just as easy to interpet as evidence of the 'biblical flood'.
Not really: the difference between the two explanations is that one is a) parsimonious, b) falsifiable, c) testable (and tested), d) evidenced, e) progressive & useful, f) explanatory, etc.

On the other hand, the Biblical Flood doesn't count as an explanation. Why? Because it simply doesn't work! This may be a trite criticism, but it's as true as any other: where did the water come from? And where did it go?

Further, the archeological evidence at the beginning of civilization, clearly shows that the people migrated down from the mountains into the flatlands and immediately set about building cities, and establishing trade. Which fits with the flood account, and is somewhat unexplainable given the normal view that man gradually evolved into this over millenia.
Source?

Even if you don't take the flood account completely literally and assume it just to be a representative story.. it is pretty clear that something catastrophic happened which probably wiped away pre-existing civilization and made man start over.
And the evidence for that would be...? Mythology and legend? Civilisation hadn't even been invented yet, so the bottlenecking of 70,000 years ago wouldn't have made a sociological dent. And you still haven't explained how Damascus has been continually occupied for eight to ten millennia unperturbed.

Further, it is fairly evident from mythology and legend that most of humanity shares much much closer connection in the ancient world than is generally allowed by the standard view.
Allowed? You talk as if we live in Nazi Germany. Did the librarian in the stern dress take down your books? Teach the controversy indeed.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Do you see "creation science" as a valid field of investigation then?

I guess I would say that any investigation of nature is valid to a certain degree.

I think that most Christians, including creation scientists have made the mistake of adopting modern philosophy without necessarily realizing it, and that the result has been they have been, in a sense, stuck playing the same game as evolutionists.

This is why Christians feel compelled to try and explain how the miracles of the bible could happen by natural processes. I see this all the time on different Christian shows put together to defend the bible. They, without realizing it, have already bought into the underlying assumptions of modernism. The whole point of a "miracle" is that it is not a natural occurance... so why would you expect it to be explainable by mere natural process? In effect if the Christian apologists in this effort succeed.. they have succeeded only in showing that the occurance need not really have been a miracle. So what is the success in that?

My personal opinion is that all "origins" science is not really "science" in the methodological sense. It is science in that it is a quest for knowledge, but it has fatal methodological flaws that remove the credability ascociated with the term "science".

The main flaw is that in order for science to even begin to investigate something, it has to be assumed to have been the result of natural process. This assumption colors the entire investigation because one of the basic rules of logic is that assumptions determine conclusions. If you begin assuming something to be true, it is very likely you will end up with a result that agrees (ie circular reasoning).

So in otherwords, non-creation science will always come to the conclusion that the universe, the earth, life etc, is the result of natural phenomenon.. because that is what they assume necessarily even by examining it. Creation science on the other hand is always going to come to the oposite conclusion because that is what they assume from the beginning.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Allowed? You talk as if we live in Nazi Germany. Did the librarian in the stern dress take down your books? Teach the controversy indeed.

The term allow does not just mean "give permission" as in I am allowed to stay up late.

It also means to account for a given contingency, or to admit, or concede a point.

Maybe I can get the librarian in the stern dress to allow you to check out a dictionary ;)

However, I would conted, ironically, that the atmosphere of much of academia is fairly nazi like.
 
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Molal

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MOD HAT

As I am sure you are aware, the FSGs indicate this is a non-debate area.

There is a fine line between debating and being informative; however, it is my feeling that this has been crossed - although I have to admit both TE's and Creationists have responded well and have not gotten into a fight.

Although I will be closing this thread and reminding you about the no-debate guideline, I do think that everyone has handled this well.

Thank you. PM me if you have questions.
 
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gluadys

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One of the things I find entertaining is that when people look at the flood from a skeptical stand point with the idea "explain how this could happen?"... thats kind of the point of "supernatural".. it didn't NORMALLY NATURALLY happen.


Isn't that reading into scripture something that is not there? I don't get the impression from Genesis that the flood was miraculous.
 
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Mallon

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I guess I would say that any investigation of nature is valid to a certain degree.

I think that most Christians, including creation scientists have made the mistake of adopting modern philosophy without necessarily realizing it, and that the result has been they have been, in a sense, stuck playing the same game as evolutionists.

This is why Christians feel compelled to try and explain how the miracles of the bible could happen by natural processes. I see this all the time on different Christian shows put together to defend the bible. They, without realizing it, have already bought into the underlying assumptions of modernism. The whole point of a "miracle" is that it is not a natural occurance... so why would you expect it to be explainable by mere natural process? In effect if the Christian apologists in this effort succeed.. they have succeeded only in showing that the occurance need not really have been a miracle. So what is the success in that?
I certainly agree with much of what you've said here. Neocreationists, like atheists, believe the Bible floats or sinks based on how well it describes the world around us (concordism). Neocreationists believe it does a great job; atheists think it does a terrible job. And so they relentlessly butt heads trying to prove or disprove the Bible based on how well it lines up with science, which is rediculous because the Bible clearly wasn't written to address matters of science to begin with.

My personal opinion is that all "origins" science is not really "science" in the methodological sense. It is science in that it is a quest for knowledge, but it has fatal methodological flaws that remove the credability ascociated with the term "science".

The main flaw is that in order for science to even begin to investigate something, it has to be assumed to have been the result of natural process. This assumption colors the entire investigation because one of the basic rules of logic is that assumptions determine conclusions. If you begin assuming something to be true, it is very likely you will end up with a result that agrees (ie circular reasoning).
You seem to be implying that only origins science makes the assumption of methodological naturalism, when in fact ALL of modern science makes this same assumption. So why just pick on origins science as being fatally flawed?
 
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vossler

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One of the things I find entertaining is that when people look at the flood from a skeptical stand point with the idea "explain how this could happen?"... thats kind of the point of "supernatural".. it didn't NORMALLY NATURALLY happen.

Now creationists spend a lot of time and effort explaining how all this could happen, and in some cases they do a good job. I don't want to cut that down.

However, my point is this.. something doesn't have to be naturally possible for a supernatural all powerful God to cause it to happen. Thats kind of the point.

The modern world view, based on science, demands that everything be naturally explainable, as in it has to be shown how it could have happened by natural process... well, sorry, but I don't believe it did happen by natural process, thus I feel no compunction to explain how it could happen by natural process.
If you actually believe in God.. whether something could or couldn't happen by natural process is totally irrelevant.
What a refreshing post to read, this has been my view of this debate all along and it is good to see someone else who finds the explanations provided from both sides to be entertaining. :thumbsup:

What I almost find funny if it wasn't so sad is how Christians who claim to believe in an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God can argue points that can call into question God's abilities. They do this by questioning the plain and simple meaning of His Word to the point that it can comply with an ever changing scientific model. Sadly creationists are sometimes just as guilty of this as their secular counterparts. We should humble ourselves to the point where we can admit that our world isn't always fully explainable in human or scientific terms. Are there things I don't understand about how God did what He did? Of course, but the difference is I never call into question that He did exactly what He said He did and in the manner He said He did it.
 
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gluadys

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What I almost find funny if it wasn't so sad is how Christians who claim to believe in an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God can argue points that can call into question God's abilities. They do this by questioning the plain and simple meaning of His Word to the point that it can comply with an ever changing scientific model.

Actually, my question stemmed from a plain and simple meaning. If Simon just said the flood was not normal, I would agree. But he also said it was not natural. And I don't get from a plain and simple reading of the text that the flood was not natural.

We all agree that God often works through natural means, and that seems to be how the flood is described.

So why is it so often said that the flood was supernatural?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Actually, my question stemmed from a plain and simple meaning. If Simon just said the flood was not normal, I would agree. But he also said it was not natural. And I don't get from a plain and simple reading of the text that the flood was not natural.

We all agree that God often works through natural means, and that seems to be how the flood is described.

So why is it so often said that the flood was supernatural?
Because it almost certainly could not have occurred otherwise. There are a number of almost clichéd questions: where did the water go? How did all the nostril-breathing animals fit on the ark? Why is the modern human genome so varied, despite the supposed bottleneck ~4000 years ago? Why is there exactly zero evidence for a global flood in the geologic record (large-scale floods leave distinct markers)?

I actually agree with the Christians on this one: if you're going to posit an uber-powerful deity, you may as well go all the way and use it to explain away the flood.
 
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vossler

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Actually, my question stemmed from a plain and simple meaning. If Simon just said the flood was not normal, I would agree. But he also said it was not natural. And I don't get from a plain and simple reading of the text that the flood was not natural.

We all agree that God often works through natural means, and that seems to be how the flood is described.

So why is it so often said that the flood was supernatural?
I see your point. I would say that the flood was neither normal or natural, at least not to the extent of what happened. It transcended the normal into the supernatural. A worldwide flood can only be described as supernatural. This is what I would expect from God and the Bible is replete with those type of stories and occurrences.
 
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gluadys

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Because it almost certainly could not have occurred otherwise. There are a number of almost clichéd questions: where did the water go? How did all the nostril-breathing animals fit on the ark? Why is the modern human genome so varied, despite the supposed bottleneck ~4000 years ago? Why is there exactly zero evidence for a global flood in the geologic record (large-scale floods leave distinct markers)?

I actually agree with the Christians on this one: if you're going to posit an uber-powerful deity, you may as well go all the way and use it to explain away the flood.

These, however, are not questions posed or answered by the text. The text simply describes a flood. It does not suggest that the flood was a supernatural event.

You have to import that idea into the text only when you take cognizance of extra-biblical knowledge, something creationists assert we ought not to do when interpreting scripture.
 
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gluadys

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I see your point. I would say that the flood was neither normal or natural, at least not to the extent of what happened. It transcended the normal into the supernatural.

My question is where do you get this from a plain and simple reading of the text.



A worldwide flood can only be described as supernatural.

But where is it described as supernatural in the biblical text? Are you not importing fallible human reason into the interpretation here. Is it not because you cannot imagine any way for a world-wide flood to be natural that you jump to the conclusion that it was supernatural even though the text does not actually describe it as a miracle.

This is what I would expect from God and the Bible is replete with those type of stories and occurrences.

Why do you expect it of God?

The bible contains miracle stories, but the story of the flood is not set out as a miracle. It is described as having natural causes--quite unlike the plagues of Egypt which are specifically described as miraculous.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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These, however, are not questions posed or answered by the text. The text simply describes a flood. It does not suggest that the flood was a supernatural event.
On the contrary, God states in Genesis 7:4

...for after other seven days I am sending rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and have wiped away all the substance that I have made from off the face of the ground.


God specifically states that he is sending the rain. This is not just an unusual meteorological phenomenon, this is directly caused by a deity. That, I think, qualifies it for the 'supernatural' moniker.

You have to import that idea into the text only when you take cognizance of extra-biblical knowledge, something creationists assert we ought not to do when interpreting scripture.
The Bible does not say the Flood occurred in the complete absence of divine intervention. Thus, since exegesis has failed us, extra-Biblical knowledge can be employed to see how the Flood could have occurred. However, since it turns out that a purely natural (i.e., no "goddidit"s) explanation cannot account for the data, one must begin positing "goddidit"s to keep the story within the realms of possibility.

In short, either one requires a supernatural explanation for what could not have occurred naturally, or one rejects the relevant texts as not literally true (or simply not true at all).
 
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Mallon

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On the contrary, God states in Genesis 7:4

...for after other seven days I am sending rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and have wiped away all the substance that I have made from off the face of the ground.
I guess the question is begging to be asked, then: Are some rains sent by God and others not? If not, and if God sends ALL the rain (sensu Matt 5:45), then is all rain "supernatural"?
If we refer to God as the Ultimate Cause of all events, does mean that all natural events are, in fact, supernatural? Sounds more like Christian Science to me.
 
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gluadys

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Gluadys, why do you think a distinction between the flood being natural or supernatural is important? Do you believe the flood was a natural event, or are you only saying it can't be determined?

I think it is a matter of paying close attention to the text. The text is the final authority. If the text indicates ordinary natural causes, then it would be incorrect to exegete it as supernatural.
 
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