How many different species were on Noah's Ark

[GoodNewsJim]

Did the Ark hold all of today's known land animals, birds and insects?

Were there dinosaurs on the Ark?

Or did animals speciate from God's guidance after Noah's Ark came to dry ground?

I'm curious because I'm exploring the ways that Creationists fit all the animals we see today with what used to be. If I can figure out the full picture of how it happened, it could help me explain things to others.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Did the Ark hold all of today's known land animals, birds and insects?

Were there dinosaurs on the Ark?

Or did animals speciate from God's guidance after Noah's Ark came to dry ground?

I'm curious because I'm exploring the ways that Creationists fit all the animals we see today with what used to be. If I can figure out the full picture of how it happened, it could help me explain things to others.

I will try to com back later in the day when I have time and link you to some articles. In the mean time:

1.No, 2 of every kind of animal. For example only 1 dog kind would be needed. He would have not needed poodles, German Shepards and etc.

2. Yes, probably younger, not full grown dinosaurs. Also remember the average size of a dinosaur is about the size of a chicken (even though the chicken didn't evolve from the dinosaur ).

3. Varietes came about after the flood. This was increased compared to today because of eviromental pressures and the abundance of genetic information in these animals which a lot of has been lost since then.

 

[Mallon]

2. Yes, probably younger, not full grown dinosaurs. Also remember the average size of a dinosaur is about the size of a chicken (even though the chicken didn't evolve from the dinosaur ).

It was about the size of a cow, actually. Chicken-sized dinosaurs were about as small as they came.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

It was about the size of a cow, actually. Chicken-sized dinosaurs were about as small as they came.

You are right, I was mistaken. You are wrong though that it is the size of a cow. It is the size of a sheep which is slightly larger then a chicken but much smaller then a cow.

To address the person that started this thread I said I would link to some more in depth material. Probably the best thing I can find online that I agree with the most would be here. That will give you a better idea where I and a good number of young earth creationists come from.

 

[Mallon]

You are right, I was mistaken. You are wrong though that it is the size of a cow. It is the size of a sheep which is slightly larger then a chicken but much smaller then a cow.

I guess that depends on which neocreationist source you use.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

I guess that depends on which neocreationist source you use.

I'm not familiar with that web site. It might depend if you are talking about full grown dinosaurs or younger ones. Something to keep in mind is that reptiles keep growing and God probably would have not brought the senior citizens of the animal kinds. It has been an interesting conversation though and thank you for the link.

 

[Floodnut]

Regardless of the size of the representative creatures, dinosaurs (dragons) were on the Ark since they are mentioned as living AFTER the Flood. Two of every kind. However while there are dozens of varieties ceratopsians in the fossil record, and dozens of raptors, each of these varieties may have been represented by ONE parent couple of the particular kind.
Remember also that ONLY air-breathing land animals in whose nostrils is the breath of life were taken on the Ark. Frogs did not need to be on the Ark, nor did turtles. These creatures are capable of surviving for long periods buried in the mud at the bottom of a pond, so they could have survived for a half a year or longer in the cataclysm.

Insects have dormancy capabilities that would have enabled them to naturally survive without being taken on the Ark.

With regard to the size of animals taken on the Ark, the object was to preserve the kinds, and that would mean taking specimens in the prime of life, just at the onset of the adult stage where they would begin to bear young immediately after coming off the Ark in the post-flood world.

And as you suggested, the vast array of new variations arose after the Flood. Meanwhile some animals that thrived before the Flood did not adjust well to new conditions after the Flood and others quickly fell victim to predation resulting in the extinction of some "species."

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Regardless of the size of the representative creatures, dinosaurs (dragons) were on the Ark since they are mentioned as living AFTER the Flood.

Really? Where were dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible?

Remember also that ONLY air-breathing land animals in whose nostrils is the breath of life were taken on the Ark. Frogs did not need to be on the Ark, nor did turtles.

Pray tell, what do frogs and turtles breath, if not air? Modern frogs and turtles breathe air (and turtles can't even breathe water), so what did their antideluvian counterparts respire?

these creatures are capable of surviving for long periods buried in the mud at the bottom of a pond, so they could have survived for a half a year or longer in the cataclysm.

Perhaps, but the Bible makes no such implication. indeed, they breathe air, so they must have been on the Ark.

Insects have dormancy capabilities that would have enabled them to naturally survive without being taken on the Ark.

Nevertheless, they breathe air, so must therefore have been on the Ark. Whoever said God wanted to be efficient?

With regard to the size of animals taken on the Ark, the object was to preserve the kinds, and that would mean taking specimens in the prime of life, just at the onset of the adult stage where they would begin to bear young immediately after coming off the Ark in the post-flood world.

What about species that a) learn behavioural and survival traits from their kith and kin, and b) swarms? Neither of these catagories of organisms wouldn't survive post-flood.

And as you suggested, the vast array of new variations arose after the Flood. Meanwhile some animals that thrived before the Flood did not adjust well to new conditions after the Flood and others quickly fell victim to predation resulting in the extinction of some "species."

You contradict yourself. First, you say that the point was to preserve the 'kinds' (what is a 'kind', exactly?). Then you say that some species quickly went extinct when they left the Ark. Which is it? Or is God just sloppy?

 

[RobertByers]

This creationist sees it different.
All the bible says is that kinds were taken on the ark.
So what can be put into a kind.
I think that bears amd dogs are the same kind. For example.
I wrote an essay called "Post flood marsupial migration Explained" by Robert Byers. just google, in which I demonstrate marsupials and other orders of creatures are in fact just the same creatures as elsewhere on earth with a few minor changes.
So a marsupial wolf is just the same wolf as elsewhere on the planet.
I also believe that whales etc adapted to the post flood world from being first land creatures.
Organized creationism is and can be more liberal in figuring out what can be put into the concept of kinds.
It actually is a less diverse fauna on earth by looking at it this way then one would expect.

 

[Dr. Unk]

Can someone define what they mean by "kind"? Are chimpanzees and gorillas the same kind? What about wolves, dogs, dingos and coyotes?

 

[deana1003]

Did the Ark hold all of today's known land animals, birds and insects?

Were there dinosaurs on the Ark?

Or did animals speciate from God's guidance after Noah's Ark came to dry ground?

I'm curious because I'm exploring the ways that Creationists fit all the animals we see today with what used to be. If I can figure out the full picture of how it happened, it could help me explain things to others.

First of all it didn't say species, It was two of each kind. Example: two of each Dog kind, bird kind ect. And Noah was to take 7 kinds of Clean Animals. If you want to look at it as he took all species and DID THEY FIT ON THE BOAT? He is the math on species today and there numbers.

Mammals 3700
Birds 8600
Reptiles 6300
amphibians 2500

Fish, Tunicates, Echinoderms, arthropods, mollusks, worms, coelenterated, sponges, protozans, can either live in water or on water. You add all the species up and you get 21,100 times that by 2 and + 7,800 clean animals he had to take and that gives you 50,000 animals he had to take on the ark. Now the bible tells you how big the ark was(450X75X45=1,518,750 Sq ft, So you figure 280 lofts for each species of animals, you can fit 240 small animals in each one. That only takes up 36% on the arks capacity. Given that this is the worst case for Noah (Species) If it was kind it would be a smaller Number than 50,000 animals. So how did Noah fit the Dinosaurs. Larger animals he would take babies or teenagers, Smart logic would say they live longer than the full grown. So Dinosaurs, the largest egg found was the size of a Rugby Football. So Im sure he took babies.

I hope this answered some of your questions ( God Bless)

 

[Dr. Unk]

Example: two of each Dog kind, bird kind ect.

But what does "kind" mean? Genus? Family?
Are dingos, coyotes and wolves the same kind? Horses, donkeys and zebras?

How hard is it to retrieve and maintain all these thousands of animals?

 

[deana1003]

But what does "kind" mean? Genus? Family?
Are dingos, coyotes and wolves the same kind? Horses, donkeys and zebras?

How hard is it to retrieve and maintain all these thousands of animals?

"Kind" two of each kind in the dog family, two of each kind in the horse family, and yes I think coyotes, dingos, wolves, "Dog family" and so on.

With the power of God all things are possible.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

"Kind" two of each kind in the dog family, two of each kind in the horse family, and yes I think coyotes, dingos, wolves, "Dog family" and so on.

With the power of God all things are possible.

I think he's asking for an explicit definition of 'kind'. Is it equivalent to a genus, a family, an order? Is the order Carnivora a kind, or were each of the modern families (Stenoplesictidae, Percrocutidae, Hyaenidae, etc) represented on the Ark?

I have also wondered how the surviving animals recovered from the severe genetic bottlenecking: the genetic diversity among animals suggests no such bottlenecking occurred ~4000 years ago. Indeed, the human Y-chromosome (all of which is supposedly descended from Noah) shows far greater variation than Genesis seems to imply.

Other problems include:

• How did hive organisms survive? Bees, wasps, ants, termites, etc, all live in colonies (i.e., a structure & a large population) that would not survive a year long flood.
• If Noah took infants on the Ark, how did they learn the behaviour necessary to survive? Cranes, for instance, learn their famous dance from the flock; if there was noone to learn from, why do modern Cranes dance?
• How did cheetahs mate, since the female requires being chased for several miles by several males before she ovulates?
• How did ring species know where to go to look exactly like they had evolved round a large geographic area (Larus gulls, for instance, or Ensatina salamanders)?
• How did corals survive being submerged to such enormous depths and pressures (not to mention the lack of light)?
• Where did turtles go when it was time to lay their eggs?
• How did hummingbirds eat their own weight in nectar daily?
• How did the Spotted hyenas survive, given that one in ten mothers die, and first-borns are suffocated*?

And this is just behavioural attributes; what about the evidence that no global flood has occurred on Earth, either c.2000BCE or otherwise? Why has human civilisation continued unperturbed around that apparently uneventful date (the city of Damascus, for instance, has been continually occupied since c.6000BCE)?

So, yeah, global flood? Reality says otherwise.

*The female Spotted hyena has a fused vagina, and the birth canal routes through the massively engorged [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] (which has evolved to resemble the male's penis in size and shape). Utterly fascinating, if baffling.

 

[Dr. Unk]

If the variation we see among each "kind" has only happened in 4,000 years, that would be super-evolution. The mutation rates would have to be FAR higher than they are.

 

[Mallon]

I think he's asking for an explicit definition of 'kind'. Is it equivalent to a genus, a family, an order? Is the order Carnivora a kind, or were each of the modern families (Stenoplesictidae, Percrocutidae, Hyaenidae, etc) represented on the Ark?

I have also wondered how the surviving animals recovered from the severe genetic bottlenecking: the genetic diversity among animals suggests no such bottlenecking occurred ~4000 years ago. Indeed, the human Y-chromosome (all of which is supposedly descended from Noah) shows far greater variation than Genesis seems to imply.

Other problems include:

• How did hive organisms survive? Bees, wasps, ants, termites, etc, all live in colonies (i.e., a structure & a large population) that would not survive a year long flood.
• If Noah took infants on the Ark, how did they learn the behaviour necessary to survive? Cranes, for instance, learn their famous dance from the flock; if there was noone to learn from, why do modern Cranes dance?
• How did cheetahs mate, since the female requires being chased for several miles by several males before she ovulates?
• How did ring species know where to go to look exactly like they had evolved round a large geographic area (Larus gulls, for instance, or Ensatina salamanders)?
• How did corals survive being submerged to such enormous depths and pressures (not to mention the lack of light)?
• Where did turtles go when it was time to lay their eggs?
• How did hummingbirds eat their own weight in nectar daily?
• How did the Spotted hyenas survive, given that one in ten mothers die, and first-borns are suffocated*?

And this is just behavioural attributes; what about the evidence that no global flood has occurred on Earth, either c.2000BCE or otherwise? Why has human civilisation continued unperturbed around that apparently uneventful date (the city of Damascus, for instance, has been continually occupied since c.6000BCE)?

The answer is magic, of course.

I guess my question for the folks of this subforum is this: What's the point of trying to reason the Flood story (e.g. with reference to "kinds" to fit the animals aboard, rapid plate tectonics to account for continental drift, mass hibernation to reduce animal consumption/waste, etc.) when one must appeal to miracles in the end anyway? Why not just assume that God used a miracle to shrink all those millions of animal species down to size, send them into a cryogenic torpor so they didn't have to eat, and then magically increase their size again when the storm was over? If we're going to allow for appeals to miracles in creation science/flood geology, is this explanation any less tenable than, say, Baumgardner's idea that God used a miracle to kick off catastrophic tectonism? How do we know when to distinguish between miraculous explanations and natural ones?
I've always wondered about the thought process behind this.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Mallon nails it.

 

[mark kennedy]

Did the Ark hold all of today's known land animals, birds and insects?

Everything air breathing animal and bird.

Were there dinosaurs on the Ark?

Yes, but they were young.

Or did animals speciate from God's guidance after Noah's Ark came to dry ground?

Yes, on an unprecedented level.

I'm curious because I'm exploring the ways that Creationists fit all the animals we see today with what used to be. If I can figure out the full picture of how it happened, it could help me explain things to others.

They point out that there are really only a few very large animals, such as the dinosaur or the elephant, and these could be represented by young ones. "Assuming the average animal to be about the size of a sheep and using a railroad car for comparison, we note that the average double-deck stock car can accommodate 240 sheep. Thus, three trains hauling 69 cars each would have ample space to carry the 50,000 animals, filling only 37 percent of the ark. This would leave an additional 361 cars or enough to make 5 trains of 72 cars each to carry all of the food and baggage plus Noah's family of eight people."​

How Many Animals Were on the Ark?

Oh...about 50,000 would be a conservative guess.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

They point out that there are really only a few very large animals, such as the dinosaur or the elephant
​

Don't forget the blue whale. I don't suppose Noah had countless tons of krill on board?

Oh...about 50,000 would be a conservative guess.

Conservative would be an understatement. There are trillions of animal species today, yet they show no sign of a mass population bottlenecking c.2000BCE. Not even humans show that.

 

[Mallon]

Yes, but they were young.

This just goes back to the point I just finished making. If you're willing to accept that God miraculously lured the animals onto the ark/kicked off the epic flood/sustained the animals on the ark, why stop appealing to miracles there? Why not just assume that God put adult Brachiosaurus onto the ark by miraculously shrinking them down to the size of a peanut? Why are you reasoning some details but not others?