How many agree with this

TraderJack · Apr 22, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
gonna have to say the Pope is wrong on this one

JPII was repeating the so called "infallible" decree of Lumen Gentium:

But the* plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in* the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold* the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,* merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

And Rome declared that to be "Divine truth" spoken by God thorugh the Roman magesterium, just as God spoke through the Old Testament prophets.

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

Would that be an example of "holding the truth (monotheism) in unrighteousness"?

QuantaCura · Apr 22, 2008

God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies. He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.

Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.

A good read on this is the chapter on Islam in Hillaire Belloc's book, "The Great Heresies."

St. Gregory VII, a crusader, affirmed the same thing as did St. John Damascene who described Islam as a heresy.

TraderJack · Apr 22, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Would that be an example of "holding the truth (monotheism) in unrighteousness"?

I think so.

TraderJack · Apr 22, 2008

QuantaCura said:
God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies. He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.

Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.

A good read on this is the chapter on Islam in Hillaire Belloc's book, "The Great Heresies."

St. Gregory VII, a crusader, affirmed the same thing as did St. John Damascene who described Islam as a heresy.

So, do you agree or not that Roman Catholicism worships "one and the same" as the god of Islam?

Yes or no?

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

The demons believe in one God, too.
Are they in that sense, Catholic?

TraderJack · Apr 22, 2008

QuantaCura said:
God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies.

You leave out the part where Paul says, because what can be known of God, including His Divine Godhead is clearly seen, that they are without excuse.

He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.

That is not what Paul said at all.

Paul said, "Men of Athens, I can see that you are religious men, and even have a temple to an "unknown god". I am here to tell you who that unknown God is."

You see, the greek pagans had that temple to an unknown god as a way of hedging their bets, and trying to cover all the bases. It was just one in their pantheon that they did not give a name to.

Not that they were worshipping the True God at all.

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

TraderJack said:
JPII was not saying anything different from what Lumen Gentium said, as a matter of fact, he was in total agreement, confirming it:

http://abbey.apana.org.au/Councils/vatican2/V2church.Htm

Notice it says Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore", meaning "worship" the same god. All that sounds very relativistic, and has been the cause of several schisms within Roman Catholicism.

You left out the next part:

"Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 "

Please pay attention. I am not saying anything. I've presented what your popes and magesterium have said and asked a question if you agree that you worship the "one and the same" god as Islam does as Rome says of Roman Catholicism.

Well, we believe in the Trinity and Jesus Christ, they do not. But their religion is also monotheistic, so that's a start.

I have a question for you...Before I became a Christian, I was a 'general theist' (after being agnostic for several years)...I believed that there is a God, although I had not yet accepted Christianity (or any other religion). I was seeking Him, and then came to know Christ. Would you say that I believed in God, or something else?

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

Rick Otto said:
The demons believe in one God, too.
Are they in that sense, Catholic?

what?

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

TraderJack said:
Paul said, "Men of Athens, I can see that you are religious men, and even have a temple to an "unknown god". I am here to tell you who that unknown God is."

what about the "that"?

sunlover1 · Apr 22, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
gonna have to say the Pope is wrong on this one

Gonna have to agree with you on this one.

QuantaCura said:
God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies. He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and mans device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=46206731#_ftn2

Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.

But there is only one name under Heaven by which all
men must be saved. So if they dont have Jesus,
they dont have salvation right? If they dont have
salvation then according to Scripture they're the children
of the devil, right?
So then that would mean that they worship a God of
their own making?

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

But there is only one name under Heaven by which all
men must be saved. So if they dont have Jesus,
they dont have salvation right? If they dont have
salvation then according to Scripture they're the children
of the devil, right?
So then that would mean that they worship a God of
their own making?

Sunlover, you're right that there is no salvation in Islam, and that it is only by Christ that we are saved... and indeed there are many lies in their religion...
but that does not mean that there isn't ANY truth there too, after all they also believe that there is one God who is the Creator. So they got that part right so do you see, they don't really know God the way He wants to be known, but that little part of truth they have could not have come from the devil. So it's not really that they believe in a God of their own making, but rather they have a corrupted, incomplete understanding of the real God. (and of course this is not enough for salvation, since we can only be saved by Christ..and God wants to bring them to the light).

nitecrawlur · Apr 22, 2008

MoNiCa4316 said:
Sunlover, you're right that there is no salvation in Islam, and that it is only by Christ that we are saved... and indeed there are many lies in their religion...
but that does not mean that there isn't ANY truth there too, after all they also believe that there is one God who is the Creator. So they got that part right so do you see, they don't really know God the way He wants to be known, but that little part of truth they have could not have come from the devil. So it's not really that they believe in a God of their own making, but rather they have a corrupted, incomplete understanding of the real God. (and this is not enough for salvation, since we can only be saved by Christ..and God wants to bring them to the light).

What makes your religion/belief correct and not others?

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

So then that would mean that they worship a God of
their own making?

I would say that is 99% true.
The 1% they got right, like Abraham, is there is only one.

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

nitecrawlur said:
What makes your religion/belief correct and not others?

Our is based on a historical event, whereas other religions are based on accounts of visions, revelations, philosophy, etc

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

but that little part of truth they have could not have come from the devil.

Why not? THe devil is clever enough to mix the truth with lies, yes?

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

Rick Otto said:
I would say that is 99% true.
The 1% they got right, like Abraham, is there is only one.

that's actually kinda like what I was saying too....

but the 1% is already something, and it's from God, not from the devil!

Pope JPII never meant that their understanding of God is true or that Islam=Catholicism... simply that Muslims and us share a belief in one God, even if they're wrong on everything else, they still have that.

MoNiCa4316 · Apr 22, 2008

Rick Otto said:
Why not? THe devil is clever enough to mix the truth with lies, yes?

yes but the truth does not come from him.. he takes God's truth and mixes it up with his own lies.

Rdr Iakovos · Apr 22, 2008

TraderJack said:
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Is the god of Islam and Roman Catholicism one and the same god?

I could not disagree more.
Of course, I won't speak for Catholics

Rdr Iakovos · Apr 22, 2008

nitecrawlur said:
What makes your religion/belief correct and not others?

Ahh, the predictable appeal to relativism.

The question posed should be "is there objective truth?"
That is to say, is there such a thing as truth?

In science, there is no relativism- yet we should believe somehow that in philosophy or theology (a subset of the former).
pffft.

The logical outcome of relativism is that there is also no right and no wrong, beyond function.

How many agree with this

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