How many agree with this

[TraderJack]

If you want to debate Mormon theology,

The question is not to debate Mormon theology, it is about Roman Catholic theology, and whether Roman Catholicism says the same thing about the Mormon god as they do about the Muslim god.

 

[TraderJack]

Gnosticism? You really are drowning in your own bias, aren't you?

The Gnostics had "secret knowledge" that know one but them knew, just as the Roman magesterium, as was shown clearly when you said you have no way to know if something is ex cathedra or not.

Only the magesterium can know that, no one else can.

Secret knowledge held by the magesterium to enlighten with when it suits them.

Yes, that Gnosticism to the core.

 

[TraderJack]

No, it's not. It's exactly the same situation.

You/We either have to say that all three worship the same God or that three different Gods are described by these three faiths. Those are the only choices.

Exactly, and the Mormons claim that Jesus is their savior.

They claim to worship the God of Abraham.

So does Roman Catholicism worship the same god as the Mormons too?

 

[PassthePeace1]

What do you think this means:

1 John 2:23
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Means that they are not Christians, Jack. No one is saying that Islam is an equivalent of Christianity. Like I said before, theirs is one of a preverted theology, of the God of Abraham, but it's still of the Abrahamic faith.

Only thru Christ, are we able to come into a full understanding of who God the Father is....Christ puts a human face on God, so when we see Christ, we see God the Father.

Ironically, Muslims where upset by the Church's statement....they thought it didn't go far enough, and give them a legitimacy....and dimished Islam.


Pam

 

[TraderJack]

Means that they are not Christians, Jack. No one is saying that Islam is an equivalent of Christianity. Like I said before, theirs is one of a preverted theology, of the God of Abraham, but it's still of the Abrahamic faith.

Only thru Christ, are we able to come into a full understanding of who God the Father is....Christ puts a human face on God, so when we see Christ, we see God the Father.

Ironically, Muslims where upset by the Church's statement....they thought it didn't go far enough, and give them a legitimacy....and dimished Islam.


Pam

Muslims do not agree that they and Roman Catholics worship "one and the same" god.

You didn't even read the citations I have from the Koran on this matter did you?

Of course not.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Muslims do not agree that they and Roman Catholics worship "one and the same" god.

You didn't even read the citations I have from the Koran on this matter did you?

Of course not.

No, doesn't ring a bell....where about in the thread did you post them and I will go read them.

ETA: I went back and found it....yeah, I did read that.....but that is just more of your circular argument. I have said many times, in one way or another, they don't have a full understanding of Trinity, so those citations are no surprise. And they do claim to be of the Abrahamic faith, they even call Jews and Christians.."People of the Book"..... it's you that are having trouble reconciling it. Don't limit God's Mercy....it's without measure.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=PassthePeace1 Means that they are not Christians, Jack. No one is saying that Islam is an equivalent of Christianity. Like I said before, theirs is one of a preverted theology, of the God of Abraham, but it's still of the Abrahamic faith.

So the muffin is made of poop, but it is still a muffin.
Want some milk with yours?

Only thru Christ, are we able to come into a full understanding of who God the Father is....Christ puts a human face on God, so when we see Christ, we see God the Father.

Is that Muslim, or Abrahamic... oh, wait! I forgot they're the same that way.

Ironically, Muslims where upset by the Church's statement....they thought it didn't go far enough, and give them a legitimacy....and dimished Islam.

So are they "touchy" on the subject or should the pope have gone further than the kiss?


Pam[/quote]

 

[chestertonrules]

[/FONT]

Is the god of Islam and Roman Catholicism one and the same god?

There is only one God, but I believe Muslims have distorted the true message of God, kind of like Calvinists.

 

[TraderJack]

No, doesn't ring a bell....where about in the thread did you post them and I will go read them.

It helps if you are actually aware of what has already been said rather than jumping in the middle of things without some background.

Since you have missed the 3 times I've posted this already, here it is again.

JPII and Lumen Gentium both say that Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore"(ie-worship), "one and the same" god.

The document: "Nostra Aetate" states:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah?




The Biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.​

The importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ cannot be overstated. Unless the Son is truly God and 'one with the Father', Christians would be idolaters, for we regard Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and gladly worship him. If Jesus were not God, we would be found trusting in a creature for our salvation. But we confess that Jesus is not merely another prophet, but the Son of God. The Jews in hid day understood well what he meant by that title: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God' (John 10:33). They did not believe his claim to Deity and condemned him to death for blasphemy. But Christians understand his claim and believe him; we trust and worship the Son of God; we live and die for our Lord. For in Christ we know God in truth:

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21)

The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Islam denies the Trinity:

Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73).

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son (Sura 4:171).

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).​

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle (Sura 4).

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:72).​

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (Sura 5:116).​

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:17).​

Clearly then, the Quran denies:

1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.
​

The conclusion is inescapeable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Islam describes a totally different god altogether.

Christians do not adore the same God as Muslims. Muslims are not merely ignorant of the Triune nature of God and the Deity of the Son: the Quran explicitly negates the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Muslims pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God.

'The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them' (Sura 9:29-30)

How could Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord?

Quite frankly, the statement that Crhistians and Muslims adore the same God is false. I won't speculate on the motives of the Roman Catholic hierarchy for declaring that Roman Catholicism and Islam worship "one and the same" god.

However, it should be evident to every Roman Catholic who has placed their confidence in the infallibility and unchangeableness of the Roman magisterium, that in fact the Vatican's teaching on this matter has changed and that it is both fallible and in grievious error bordering on blasphemy.

 

[TraderJack]

There is only one God, but I believe Muslims have distorted the true message of God

Islam describes an entirely different god altogether than the God of the Holy Scriptures and the historic Christian faith.

If Roman Catholicism wants to be united in worshipping "one and the same" god as Islam, be my guest.

kind of like Calvinists.

If you make to heaven, yule be a Calvinist.

 

[PassthePeace1]

It helps if you are actually aware of what has already been said rather than jumping in the middle of things without some background.

Since you have missed the 3 times I've posted this already, here it is again.

No I read them, just didn't know that's what you were referring too....thought maybe you had posted something new. But like I said in the ETA of my post, just more of your circular argument.

 

[TraderJack]

No, doesn't ring a bell....where about in the thread did you post them and I will go read them.

ETA: I went back and found it....yeah, I did read that.....but that is just more of your circular argument. I have said many times, in one way or another, they don't have a full understanding of Trinity

You don't get it.

They don't just not "have a full understanding of the Trinity", they say there IS NO TRINITY.

They say JESUS IS NOT DIVINE.

Islam describes a totally different god altogether than Holy Scripture and the historic Christian faith.

 

[TraderJack]

No I read them, just didn't know that's what you were referring too....thought maybe you had posted something new. But like I said in the ETA of my post, just more of your circular argument.

Wrong it is your argument that is circular and amounts to heresy, bordering on blasphemy.

It is becoming more and more evident that JPII is right. Roman Catholicism does worship "one and the same" god as Islam.

 

[Rick Otto]

You realize of course, you're asking her to admit that the pope was wrong, which in turn is to admit that she is wrong.

You might as well ask her if she wants to go hunting with Dick Chaney.

 

[chestertonrules]

(( Islam describes an entirely different god altogether than the God of the Holy Scriptures and the historic Christian faith.)))

That's what I said.

However, both are attempting to understand the one true God.

Unfortunately, they have been misled by Muhammed and Calvin.

 

[TraderJack]

You realize of course, you're asking her to admit that the pope was wrong, which in turn is to admit that she is wrong.

You might as well ask her if she wants to go hunting with Dick Chaney.

Yeah, and that can't happen or the truth will have to be admitted, and their whole relgion comes tumbling down.

As it has been since the Dark Ages, Rome must be blindly obeyed and defended, irrespective of what the facts are.

 

[PassthePeace1]

You don't get it.

They don't just not "have a full understanding of the Trinity", they say there IS NO TRINITY.

They say JESUS IS NOT DIVINE.

Islam describes a totally different god altogether than Holy Scripture and the historic Christian faith.

Yes Jack, I do get it....I understand they reject the Trinity and Jesus's Divinity....so do the Jews. Yet there seems to be no question, on if Jews and Christians worship the same God.


I pray that God will someday, reveal Himself, fully to Muslims, and they will accept Christ...but until that happens, they only have a fraction of the Truth. But I don't want to deny them the truth they do have....and that is that there is only one God, and He is omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent, all mercyful.....all distant attributes of the God of Abraham.

 

[chestertonrules]

You realize of course, you're asking her to admit that the pope was wrong, which in turn is to admit that she is wrong.

You might as well ask her if she wants to go hunting with Dick Chaney.

The pope can be wrong about many things. Popes are sinners like everyone else.

This is not relevant to his infallibility with regard to Christian doctrine.

He was not speaking ex cathedra in the comments above.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Is Unam Sanctum an ex cathedra document?

Go to New Advent and read about it.

The document has some doctrine in it but the whole letter is not treated as infallible even though there is nothing wrong with it.




*Simon poked me in the eye! Wah!!!

 

[TraderJack]

Yes Jack, I do get it....I understand they reject the Trinity and Jesus's Divinity....so do the Jews. Yet there seems to be no question, on if Jews and Christians worship the same God.


I pray that God will someday, reveal Himself, fully to Muslims, and they will accept Christ...but until that happens, they only have a fraction of the Truth. But I don't want to deny them the truth they do have....and that is that there is only one God, and He is omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent, all mercyful.....all distant attributes of the God of Abraham.

I'll pray that God open your eyes to the truth.