How long has man been created.

mpok1519 said:

well, people are going to translate and interpret it a billion different ways.

no two people on this planet interpret the Bible identically, meaning, there is no one true rtanslation/interpretation, because EVERYONE has a different one.

This is what makes life unique, varied and different, which is a good thing.

I interpret the Bible as metaphorical; its not a true narrative historical account, or science book, or history lesson. Its a story with a certainmeaning and message behind it, but, how you determine that message is all up to the individual.

But, lets stick with the science and the facts.

Modern man, modern homo sapiens, have been around for about 150,000 years. The site with the oldest homo sapien remains date to around 160,000 years ago.

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Great post! but I fear the message will be ineffectual to the pious, recalcitrant mind. Radical theologians dismiss science as farse so long as it's either not mentioned in the bible or "seems" to contradict scripture all while selectively/subjectively picking and choosing to believe those aspects of science which either don't "appear" to threaten their beliefs or which convenitently uphold them.

On a side note, one fundamental principle of discipleship in Jesus Christ is the intransigent will to seek out TRUTH in all realms - including the universe and this world. Jesus Christ is the master of truth and the source from which it is given. Jesus taught from scripture but his source of truth was not derived from this world, but rather a higher, living power which knows no boundry established by man; limitless in the eyes of the Father.

Science is great because, while humans are imperfect, it seeks to find truth not established in scripture. Founded in objectivity, true science laments bias and welcomes neutrality. Many times this neutrality is accepted by the world at large. However, prejudice, close-mindedness and fear will reject scientific truths, if but for no other reason then it is inconvenient or beyond their spritual capacity for them to understand. Naturally, as cognitive dissonance suggests, said theologian fanatics will attack the source of vexation and, as I said before, dismiss the source of their vexation as farse all while trying to discredit those who proclaim said truth. Well, sorry - don't shoot the messanger

fwwid said:

Great post! but I fear the message will be ineffectual to the pious, recalcitrant mind. Radical theologians dismiss science as farse so long as it's either not mentioned in the bible or "seems" to contradict scripture all while selectively/subjectively picking and choosing to believe those aspects of science which either don't "appear" to threaten their beliefs or which convenitently uphold them.

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Its sounds like you have been around the typical narrow minded anti-intellectual types. Problem is, you have become equally narrow minded by limiting all Christians and throwing them into a convenient box.

Why do you even come here to argue if Bible believing Christians are all what you say they are? Must be a reason.

On a side note, one fundamental principle of discipleship in Jesus Christ is the intransigent will to seek out TRUTH in all realms.

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Christians do not seek out truth in all realms? At least the Bible believing ones don't. Right?

Science is great because, while humans are imperfect, it seeks to find truth not established in scripture.

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There is nothing about the data that motivated the formulation of the theory of evolution that can not be found existing in the Bible for thousands of years.

Founded in objectivity, true science laments bias and welcomes neutrality.

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Rhetoric. Fine sounding rhetoric.

On a side note, one fundamental principle of discipleship in Jesus Christ is the intransigent will to seek out TRUTH in all realms.

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But, you do? I see... That's you. You seek TRUTH in all realms?

If what you claim is true? Try looking into this, perhaps?

Without Form and Void - Frontpage


Care to discuss what was discovered by some scholars?

Many times this neutrality is accepted by the world at large. However, prejudice, close-mindedness and fear will reject scientific truths, if but for no other reason then it is inconvenient or beyond their spritual capacity for them to understand.

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That is true, and does apply to certain Christians. But, something tells me that your upbringing and a limited exposure to Christianity, opened a door for you to establish yourself right where you like to be. The superior mind. As long as all Christians are like what you claim? It must be quite comforting to such an ego. But, then again, under my pastor have sat men from NASA, and people who attended MIT. Kind of shoots down that nice tower you have constructed for yourself. Matter of fact, my pastor was once invited to speak to the student body at MIT.

So much for that though... all Christians are to be the way you enjoy seeing them to be. Smugness is never a virtue. Its in the Bible.

Naturally, as cognitive dissonance suggests, said theologian fanatics will attack the source of vexation and, as I said before, dismiss the source of their vexation as farse all while trying to discredit those who proclaim said truth. Well, sorry - don't shoot the messanger

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Why should anyone want to shoot at what is already filled with so many holes?

Cognitive dissonance? Good to see you took at least Psychology 101.


In Christ, GeneZ



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genez i think you have accurately summed his post up.

fwwid said:

Well, sorry - don't shoot the messanger

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Mark 10:6.

genez said:

Its sounds like you have been around the typical narrow minded anti-intellectual types.

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As have you. If you have to remain disingenuous towards anyone who vaguely happens to disagree with you I wonder what it is that you hope to promote other than you own lack of manners.

Fwwid has made some comments which you have neither addressed nor answered in any meaningful way. All you have done is thrown cleaver cliches as if to suggest you are not the narrow minded anti-intellectual you apparently observe in others.

mpok1519 said:

well, people are going to translate and interpret it a billion different ways.

no two people on this planet interpret the Bible identically, meaning, there is no one true rtanslation/interpretation, because EVERYONE has a different one.

This is what makes life unique, varied and different, which is a good thing.

I interpret the Bible as metaphorical; its not a true narrative historical account, or science book, or history lesson. Its a story with a certainmeaning and message behind it, but, how you determine that message is all up to the individual.

But, lets stick with the science and the facts.

Modern man, modern homo sapiens, have been around for about 150,000 years. The site with the oldest homo sapien remains date to around 160,000 years ago.

Click to expand...

God is not the author of confusion. The Holy Spirit will interpret scripture correctly, even the most unbiased human mind will certainly overlook something critical to the most correct interpretation of scripture.

This isn't even a scientific thread, but a theological one, so let's stick with the theology. I'm reading the Keil and Delitzsch commentary on Genesis 1, and I've been reading many commentaries on the passage, all from various eras and authors of varying beliefs, yet not one of them regards this as just a story, they all write about creation in Genesis as if it is history. It's curious that the idea even came up in the first place that Genesis, or even the bible in its entirety is all metaphorical.

fwwid said:

Founded in objectivity, true science laments bias and welcomes neutrality.

Click to expand...

genez said:

Rhetoric. Fine sounding rhetoric.

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It's not rhetoric, a true scientist is encouraged to have a cold heart, as they say. The problem is the supposition that any man, let alone several, can operate without any bias. While there is certainly an amount of balance in science, and scientists will try very hard to be completely objective, some sort of bias will happen; it's unavoidable.

mpok1519 said:

well, people are going to translate and interpret it a billion different ways.

no two people on this planet interpret the Bible identically, meaning, there is no one true rtanslation/interpretation, because EVERYONE has a different one.

This is what makes life unique, varied and different, which is a good thing.

I interpret the Bible as metaphorical; its not a true narrative historical account, or science book, or history lesson. Its a story with a certainmeaning and message behind it, but, how you determine that message is all up to the individual.

But, lets stick with the science and the facts.

Modern man, modern homo sapiens, have been around for about 150,000 years. The site with the oldest homo sapien remains date to around 160,000 years ago.

Click to expand...

I look for similarities, and try one build on them. Focusing on differences leads to frustration and arguments. If the bible says the same thing, then it is easier to talk to people that take it literally.

If the bible has fossils in it, then the issue isn’t evolution. The issue becomes time frames. I believe this is a much easier hurtle. One piece at a time, my man, one piece at a time.

genez said:

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Genez,

Genez,

I may have missed it in your pots. Could you give me bible passages for fossils?

And if you and I only disagree on how God did it. I say he did it through the “natural laws” used in chemistry, physics, and biology and you accept these understandings of the “laws” and say they are in the bible …

Why couldn’t god have used the laws, which he made by the way, to do his work?

He made the canvas, and the paint, why do you say he didn’t paint? He just waved his hand.

It doesn’t make sense. He made the universe the way it is. The joy for him is watching it unfold. Yes, it brings great sadness when we hurt each other, but if we didn’t have “free choice” he mite as well watch a tree.

I did chech that site out. Did you see my poston it.

fwwid said:

On a side note, one fundamental principle of discipleship in Jesus Christ is the intransigent will to seek out TRUTH in all realms - including the universe and this world. Jesus Christ is the master of truth and the source from which it is given. Jesus taught from scripture but his source of truth was not derived from this world, but rather a higher, living power which knows no boundry established by man; limitless in the eyes of the Father.

Click to expand...

What does Christ say about the creation account.

fwwid said:

Dont shoot the messenger

Click to expand...

wayseer said:

As have you. If you have to remain disingenuous towards anyone who vaguely happens to disagree with you I wonder what it is that you hope to promote other than you own lack of manners.

Fwwid has made some comments which you have neither addressed nor answered in any meaningful way. All you have done is thrown cleaver cliches as if to suggest you are not the narrow minded anti-intellectual you apparently observe in others.

Click to expand...

I see you are still doing what you do best.

Carry on.

An Arch Angel said:

Genez,

Genez,

I may have missed it in your pots. Could you give me bible passages for fossils.

Click to expand...

I gave a link that shows how Bible scholars of the past saw that the Bible speaks of prior creations. The evidence of the prior creations are the fossils.

Matter of fact, until the fossils were found and properly identified to be used as evidence for showing prehistoric life, many who found Scriptures pointing to previous "worlds" wondered a bit as to why the Bible should say such a thing. Which goes to show you, they were not motivated by some anti-evolution dogma to postulate what they were finding. It was simply taken for granted by the scholars finding this, and did not use it for debating. It was just something they found to be self evident.

Since there was no major controversy when men were discovering this in Scripture what they recorded was simply stored away in what they wrote. It was not until Darwin came on the scene that contemporaries of Darwin began digging up this older works and began to see why the Scripture states what it does. There has been previous creations on the face of this earth. Up until the dinosaur and evolution craze those works lay quietly on bookshelves being not greatly noticed.

Here it is again:

Without Form and Void - Frontpage


Read through the first few pages and you will see what I say is true.

Why couldn’t god have used the laws, which he made by the way, to do his work?

Click to expand...

Why didn't God make a kangaroo in the image of God? He didn't.

He made the canvas, and the paint, why do you say he didn’t paint? He just waved his hand.

Click to expand...

How colorful.. a straw man with a pallet. God did create an unfolding creation. He just did it one creation at a time. Not all as one.

It doesn’t make sense. He made the universe the way it is. The joy for him is watching it unfold.

Click to expand...

This universe is to reveal to man and angels God's genius.

Joy? He will utterly destroy all you now see in creation (2 Peter 3:9-11). Its only here now to serve in a purpose of testing and teaching of men and angels. Creation today is God's classroom. Its been dirtied up and is fallen. He takes no joy in imperfection. What he will replace this present creation with will be an eternal heavens and earth. That he will take pleasure in.

I did chech that site out. Did you see my poston it.

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No, I did not. I have been following the thread. I was led to believe you had not. For you just said...

I may have missed it in your pots. Could you give me bible passages for fossils.

Click to expand...

I guess you did not read very well what the link reveals after all. For you would not be asking that question if you gave it a fair read.


In Christ, GeneZ

fwwid said:

On a side note, one fundamental principle of discipleship in Jesus Christ is the intransigent will to seek out TRUTH in all realms - including the universe and this world. Jesus Christ is the master of truth and the source from which it is given. Jesus taught from scripture but his source of truth was not derived from this world, but rather a higher, living power which knows no boundry established by man; limitless in the eyes of the Father.

Click to expand...

isnt it weird, how God is the father of truth, but the devil is the father of deciet? Well, wouldnt that mean, since, the world is older than 6000 years old, and Adam and Eve were not the first two people on earth, then the Bible is a tool of the devil, because it contains so much info that is inherantly wrong, misleading and decietful. If evolution exists, but, thats ALSO a tool of the devil, this means we all worship the devil, regardless of what side youre on. If you pick this side, its wrong if you pick that side, its also wrong.

everythings just wrong. Why would God even make such a life where we're damned if we do damned if we don't?

genez said:

How many years of evolution did it take man to be able to form a closed mind?



.

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For you? Sixty years.

For me? I don't have a closed mind. A closed mind would be insisting that the earth was created 6000 years ago, and magic essentially made people. That may not be closed minded per se, but it certainly is childish, ignorant and juvenile to believe such fallacious ideas.

mpok1519 said:

isnt it weird, how God is the father of truth, but the devil is the father of deciet? Well, wouldnt that mean, since, the world is older than 6000 years old, and Adam and Eve were not the first two people on earth, then the Bible is a tool of the devil, because it contains so much info that is inherantly wrong, misleading and decietful. If evolution exists, but, thats ALSO a tool of the devil, this means we all worship the devil, regardless of what side youre on. If you pick this side, its wrong if you pick that side, its also wrong.

everythings just wrong. Why would God even make such a life where we're damned if we do damned if we don't?

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God did not make such a life. Willful ignorance is the reason such falsehoods are perpetuated.



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willful ignorance of those who deny truthful factual evidence (such as fossils, radiometric dating, etc) seem to perpetuate this cycle.

Idiocy, is what perpetutates this sick sad cycle imho.

mpok1519 said:

For you? Sixty years.

For me? I don't have a closed mind. A closed mind would be insisting that the earth was created 6000 years ago, and magic essentially made people. That may not be closed minded per se, but it certainly is childish, ignorant and juvenile to believe such fallacious ideas.

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You do seem to place imperfect scientific methods as the highest form of authority.
And resist any reasoning that conflicts with yours.
Human nature i guess.

praisejahupeople said:

You do seem to place imperfect scientific methods as the highest form of authority.

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wait, so, blind faith in something without evidence is a more perfect and higher form of authority?

Science uses more perfect methods than, say, oh i dont know, dogma.

Its like people want a more imperfect substitute for something thats just slightly imperfect....

and theres no such thing as perfection. You give me the definition of perfection, and show me something that fits that definition objectively, please. But, i know you can't, so really, asking for such a thing is moot.

I resist conflicting ideaologies because they're not right. I dont resist the facts. I resist those trying to send us back into the dark ages by teaching bologna like id and irredicible complexity in schools next to REAL science. I resist these ideas because THESE IDEAS ARE BAD FOR SOCIETY.

And resist any reasoning that conflicts with yours.
Human nature i guess.

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Of course I resist false ideas; theres no reasoning or logic used when testifying that the earth is 6000 yars old. Theres no logic, reasoning or any maount of inductive or deductive ability. There is no reasoning, evidence, or logic that suggests the earth is 6000 years old. Theres no evidence that the earth is 6000 years old.

OF COURSE I RESIST SOMETHING THAT IS FALSE and imho, just plain stupid and BAD for society. When people insist that things that dont exist do exist, ITS BAD.