How likely was the first day a 24-hour period?

[d taylor]

I see somewhat

Are you willing to put money where your mouth is? How strongly do you believe your "yes"? How strongly do you believe your "no"?

Well if i did not believe the way i answered, i would not have answered that way. Because i could have said a 5 out 10, etc....

But i believe a day in Genesis 1 is a 12 hour day with the addition of a night ='s a 24 hour time span.

 

[tonychanyt]

Well if i did not believe the way i answered, i would not have answered that way. Because i could have said a 5 out 10, etc....

But i believe a day in Genesis 1 is a 12 hour day with the addition of a night ='s a 24 hour time span.

But you are not willing to put money where your mouth is?

 

[d taylor]

But you are not willing to put money where your mouth is?

How does that make my belief any any truer. Do you ask people to put money where their mouth is if they say they believe in Jesus for eternal life.

 

[tonychanyt]

How does that make my belief any any truer.

It does not.

Do you ask people to put money where their mouth is if they say they believe in Jesus for eternal life.

No.

I only do it in an argumentation. See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 1:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.​

Darkness was first.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.​

Light was next.

4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.​

Darkness was followed by light.

5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.​

The usage of "night" here was related to the darkness in verse 2.
The usage of "day" here was related to the creation of the light and not the sun.
Here I define the first day as the time elapsed from Genesis 1:2 to 1:5.

Could the first day be defined as a 24-hour earthly solar day?

I doubt it. The flow of time is not absolute but a relativistic experience. It depends on the local gravity or acceleration exerted on the time observer. To my reading, the first day seems short. God was the observer, 2 Peter 3:

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

This is not an equation but a simile. God is timeless and above time. There were no human observers there to experience the first day. The first day marked the creation of light and delineated it from the creation of the following day. These days were markers of milestones of achievements placed by God.

These days were observed by God until God created animals and Adam.

The Biblical authors said what they meant, however numbers were used in figurative ways in the OT.

The creation of heavens and earth was not an ex-nihilo creation, it was ex materia. And Genesis was not the only ancient near east text that described a 7 day temple creation. Other texts such as the Baal cycle describe marduks construction of a temple in 7 days. The temple hymn of Kes also describes a temple of heaven and earth and its creation.

The tabernacle and temple of solomon also have extensive parallels to Genesis.

In which case, Genesis is a temple text. It is not about 21st century science.

Text for reference:
And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65 ESV

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13 LEB

God rests.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

From Genesis to Exodus to Jesus: What Biblical Typology Might Say about Modern Day Israel

I have often read and taught on the temple-imagery in Genesis 1–2, where the Garden of Eden is portrayed by Moses as the prototypical tabernacle. I have also read and taught how the tabernacl…

davidschrock.com

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.

baal cycle

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

 

[tonychanyt]

The Biblical authors said what they meant, however numbers were used in figurative ways in the OT.

The creation of heavens and earth was not an ex-nihilo creation, it was ex materia. And Genesis was not the only ancient near east text that described a 7 day temple creation. Other texts such as the Baal cycle describe marduks construction of a temple in 7 days. The temple hymn of Kes also describes a temple of heaven and earth and its creation.

The tabernacle and temple of solomon also have extensive parallels to Genesis.

In which case, Genesis is a temple text. It is not about 21st century science.

Text for reference:
And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65 ESV

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13 LEB

God rests.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

From Genesis to Exodus to Jesus: What Biblical Typology Might Say about Modern Day Israel

I have often read and taught on the temple-imagery in Genesis 1–2, where the Garden of Eden is portrayed by Moses as the prototypical tabernacle. I have also read and taught how the tabernacl…

davidschrock.com

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.

baal cycle

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

Sorry that I am slow. I am having trouble connecting what you wrote with what I wrote. Can you make the connection explicit?

 

[Job 33:6]

Sorry that I am slow. I am having trouble connecting what you wrote with what I wrote. Can you make the connection explicit?

Well you asked the question "

"How likely was the first day a 24-hour period?"​

This is similar to reading Exodus 34:28 and asking "how likely is it that the 40 days are 24-hour periods?"
Moses stayed on the mountain with the LORD for 40 days and nights, without eating or drinking - Exodus 34:28

The answer is that, the Biblical authors were referring to 24-hour days when they use the word. However, the scriptures still arent to be taken literally as if the universe was made in 7 days, because the number "7" and each individual day of the 7, were simply components of an overall temple hymn describing the completion of Yahweys Temple.

In exodus, Moses was also referring to 24-hour days, however Moses should not then be assumed to have literally gone 40 days without food or water (if this were literally true, he would have died of dehydration a dozen times over). Thats just not the point of the text. Rather numbers were used to denote meaning beyond quantity. In the case of 7, each day of the Genesis days were just a framework for saying that what God completed was full and complete. And thats also why each of the 7 days is broken up in an orderly fashion with days 1-3 involving God making space, ordering water, and ordering land. Then subsequently filling space with stars, birds and fish, then terrestrial animals in days 4-6, with the text culminating in God "resting" or taking up presence in His temple, on day 7.

Just like when solomons temple was completed in 7 years on the 7th month with a 7 day inauguration feast. Yes, the biblical authors were referring to days and months and years as we know them, but we should not then assume that all of these details are literally true. Rather the author is simply informing the reader that Solomons temple was full and complete.

 

[tonychanyt]

The answer is that, the Biblical authors were referring to 24-hour days when they use the word.

verse?

 

[Job 33:6]

Well you asked the question "

"How likely was the first day a 24-hour period?"​

This is similar to reading Exodus 34:28 and asking "how likely is it that the 40 days are 24-hour periods?"
Moses stayed on the mountain with the LORD for 40 days and nights, without eating or drinking - Exodus 34:28

The answer is that, the Biblical authors were referring to 24-hour days when they use the word. However, the scriptures still arent to be taken literally as if the universe was made in 7 days, because the number "7" and each individual day of the 7, were simply components of an overall temple hymn describing the completion of Yahweys Temple.

In exodus, Moses was also referring to 24-hour days, however Moses should not then be assumed to have literally gone 40 days without food or water (if this were literally true, he would have died of dehydration a dozen times over). Thats just not the point of the text. Rather numbers were used to denote meaning beyond quantity. In the case of 7, each day of the Genesis days were just a framework for saying that what God completed was full and complete. And thats also why each of the 7 days is broken up in an orderly fashion with days 1-3 involving God making space, ordering water, and ordering land. Then subsequently filling space with stars, birds and fish, then terrestrial animals in days 4-6, with the text culminating in God "resting" or taking up presence in His temple, on day 7.

Just like when solomons temple was completed in 7 years on the 7th month with a 7 day inauguration feast. Yes, the biblical authors were referring to days and months and years as we know them, but we should not then assume that all of these details are literally true. Rather the author is simply informing the reader that Solomons temple was full and complete.
View attachment 333182

Another example of this is in Genesis where Lamech lives to a full age of "777".
NIV If Cain is avenged seven times, then Lamech seventy-seven times.'.Genesis 4:24

Its also why Jesus tells Peter that he ought to forgive someone 70*7 times. Mathew 18:21-22

Jesus doesnt mean that Peter should literally forgive someone hundreds of times. Thats just misunderstanding the meaning behind the number 7.

 

[Job 33:6]

verse?

the days all end with morning and evening. Except the 7th day.
And there was evening, and there was morning— the first day. Genesis 1:5

Someone could say "well there was no sun, so how could it be a 24-hour day?

Answer: Because the biblical authors werent trying to write a 21st century astronomy textbook. Genesis is more like a hymnal or poem.

 

[tonychanyt]

the days all end with morning and evening. Except the 7th day.
And there was evening, and there was morning— the first day. Genesis 1:5

Someone could say "well there was no sun, so how could it be a 24-hour day?

Answer: Because the biblical authors werent trying to write a 21st century astronomy textbook. Genesis is more like a hymnal or poem.

Let proposition P1 = Gen 1:5 refers to a 24-hour day.
P2 = Gen 1:5 does not refer to a 24-hour day.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Job 33:6]

Let proposition P1 = Gen 1:5 refers to a 24-hour day.
P2 = Gen 1:5 does not refer to a 24-hour day.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

Because the text describes mornings and evenings, im going with the 24-hour camp. I'll be bold and say 9 out of 10 on the 24-hour position. 1 our of 10 that its another of the options, because the Bible in many cases is ambiguous and we just have to accept that many things we cant know for sure because Moses isnt alive anymore for us to ask.

But again, Exodus says that Moses also went 40 days without eating or drinking. Just because the text says and means 24-hour days, doesnt necessarily make the text scientifically literally true.

I can write about a unicorn in a poem, and I can 100% mean to write about something mythological, and that can be my intent. But that still doesnt mean that just because I intended to say it, that it is scientifically literally real or true.

 

[Job 33:6]

Because the text describes mornings and evenings, im going with the 24-hour camp. I'll be bold and say 9 out of 10 on the 24-hour position. 1 our of 10 that its another of the options, because the Bible in many cases is ambiguous and we just have to accept that many things we cant know for sure because Moses isnt alive anymore for us to ask.

But again, Exodus says that Moses also went 40 days without eating or drinking. Just because the text says and means 24-hour days, doesnt necessarily make the text scientifically literally true.

I can write about a unicorn in a poem, and I can 100% mean to write about something mythological, and that can be my intent. But that still doesnt mean that just because I intended to say it, that it is scientifically literally real or true.

And I'll give another example, psalm 74:14 or Job chapter 41, Isaiah 27:1, Revelation 13:1 etc., these passages describe a mythological multi-headed firebreathing sea dragon named leviathan.

But just because the author intended to convey this information, doesnt mean that it should be taken as scientifically real or modern as if we were reading a science textbook.

Rather if we read it as poetry, we can understand that even if the author, in this case, Moses, even if Moses intended to say 24-hour days, because he is speaking in a form of poetry, we still shouldnt take it as if it is a scientific astronomical fact.

 

[juvenissun]

Genesis 1:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.​

Darkness was first.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.​

Light was next.

4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.​

Darkness was followed by light.

5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.​

The usage of "night" here was related to the darkness in verse 2.
The usage of "day" here was related to the creation of the light and not the sun.
Here I define the first day as the time elapsed from Genesis 1:2 to 1:5.

Could the first day be defined as a 24-hour earthly solar day?

I doubt it. The flow of time is not absolute but a relativistic experience. It depends on the local gravity or acceleration exerted on the time observer. To my reading, the first day seems short. God was the observer, 2 Peter 3:

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

This is not an equation but a simile. God is timeless and above time. There were no human observers there to experience the first day. The first day marked the creation of light and delineated it from the creation of the following day. These days were markers of milestones of achievements placed by God.

These days were observed by God until God created animals and Adam.

The "Day" in those verses are not our "day". There was no Sun and Moon yet.