How Just is God's Justice?

[LightBearer]

I think the sentimentality is twee, but c'mon folks..how many are disfellowshipped annually in the WTS ???..that's real unity...

This is one way in which we scripturally maintain unity.

Regards.

LB

 

[lared]

I think the sentimentality is twee, but c'mon folks..how many are disfellowshipped annually in the WTS ???..that's real unity...

The Mosaic Law called for stoning to death disobedient and even disrespectful Israelites.

Witnesses today, do not go that route.

And happy to say, a good number of those that are disfellowshipped, repent, and return to the fold.

 

[LightBearer]

Hello,

May I ask which translation of Bible you are using for 1 Tinothy 2:5-6 ?

It's that word "corresponding" that seems to be a little different.


thanx

<><

It was from the NWT

"Corresponding ransom." Gr., an·ti´ly·tron (from an·ti´, "against; in correspondence to; in place of," and ly´tron, "ransom [price paid]")

Regards,

LB

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

but he had to be "just a man", because otherwise you would have to negate true justice, or you would have to make Adam something more than just a man, he wasn't, therefore your argument is unscriptual!
LF,

You are comparing apples to oranges. Adam is not part of the Godhead. Jesus Christ is. I am not putting Adam and Christ on the same plane. That is, apparently, something you are trying to do. Adam sinned. That was part of the plan. Had he not partaken of the fruit we would have never existed. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of the Father. He was the most valiant spirit in the pre-existance. He was the only one good enough to atone for the sins of the world. Jesus Christ is a God. Adam is not. They do not compare. Christ was sent here to save mankind in spite of their sins. Sins that were initiated at the fall of Adam.

That is my last poston the subject. If you don't recognize what I am saying then so be it.

 

[Jay2004]

Mormons and JW's debating over the Godhead.

Thats funny....

No insulting intended..

 

[lared]

You are comparing apples to oranges. Adam is not part of the Godhead. Jesus Christ is. I am not putting Adam and Christ on the same plane. That is, apparently, something you are trying to do. Adam sinned. That was part of the plan. Had he not partaken of the fruit we would have never existed. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of the Father. He was the most valiant spirit in the pre-existance. He was the only one good enough to atone for the sins of the world. Jesus Christ is a God. Adam is not. They do not compare. Christ was sent here to save mankind in spite of their sins. Sins that were initiated at the fall of Adam.

That is my last poston the subject. If you don't recognize what I am saying then so be it.

That was part of the plan? ....Sorry, but that is wrong thinking and doctrine.
When I had a child....it was not part of the plan that he steals a candy bar from Wal Mart.

Adam and Eve were given the command to be fruitful and multiply prior their sin. So, yes human offspring would have existed.

 

[mawuvi]

. Adam sinned. That was part of the plan. Had he not partaken of the fruit we would have never existed.

Part of the plan? How did you know this because your assertion that God would be so callous to put as through the nightmare humans face today on Earth as part of his plan is sheer blasphemy. Short of having a direct telephone line to God and since you seemed so informed with this bit of information can you share where you got it from

 

[Amatsyahu]

Jesus Christ is a God. Adam is not. They do not compare.

Funny I read in the back of my Book of Mormon that Adam was the Ancient of Days.

 

[blessedbe]

It was part of the plan. We only know love because of hate, we only know good because of evil, we only know right because of wrong. God planned this from the beginning. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Adam could NOT have sinned. Saying that God did not know if Adam would sin or not, or that he didn't PLAN on him sinning is way off base. He made us after all!!! He knew what he was doing right down to our every thought. Why in the world would he make Adam (who messed up almost emmediately) like he was if he didn't plan it that way. God is in control! Total control.
God showed himself to us in everyway and finally, as a final revelation, sent Jesus, to show us HIMSELF and show us what LOVE really is, so we would have an example to follow,and a glimpse of what is to come.

 

[lared]

It was part of the plan. We only know love because of hate, we only know good because of evil, we only know right because of wrong. God planned this from the beginning. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Adam could NOT have sinned. Saying that God did not know if Adam would sin or not, or that he didn't PLAN on him sinning is way off base. He made us after all!!! He knew what he was doing right down to our every thought. Why in the world would he make Adam (who messed up almost emmediately) like he was if he didn't plan it that way. God is in control! Total control.
God showed himself to us in everyway and finally, as a final revelation, sent Jesus, to show us HIMSELF and show us what LOVE really is, so we would have an example to follow,and a glimpse of what is to come.

Oh my goodness. I can't believe people actually think this way.

We only know love because of hate????? That is really, really an awful thing to say. The Bible says that God is love. Did he not know love prior to Satan, and Adam and Eve's sinning? And a newborn in the arms of his mother and father? Does he not know love because he was not thrown across the room?

It sounds like, one cannot appreciate the beauty of creation until they have been blinded. Or one cannot appreciate their hand until it has been chopped off.

Certainly Jehovah God did not intend or plan for Adam to sin. He encouraged him like any loving parent to do what is right. Any loving parent does not plan for their child to do wrong.

Do you mind if I ask what religion are you exactly? Because I have not heard anyone talk like this in a very long time. Is this a Mormon teaching?

 

[mawuvi]

Oh my goodness. I can't believe people actually think this way.

We only know love because of hate????? That is really, really an awful thing to say. The Bible says that God is love. Did he not know love prior to Satan, and Adam and Eve's sinning? And a newborn in the arms of his mother and father? Does he not know love because he was not thrown across the room?

It sounds like, one cannot appreciate the beauty of creation until they have been blinded. Or one cannot appreciate their hand until it has been chopped off.

Certainly Jehovah God did not intend or plan for Adam to sin. He encouraged him like any loving parent to do what is right. Any loving parent does not plan for their child to do wrong.

Do you mind if I ask what religion are you exactly? Because I have not heard anyone talk like this in a very long time. Is this a Mormon teaching?

Lared I am so dumb-struck I am looking at my computer screen in disbelief. I am saying to myself anyone with such a view has probably not travelled the world to see the horrors that actually take place, has not spent time in hospitals to see human misery etc etc.

To say the unimaginable misery humans have gone through and still suffer to be all part of a grand plan of God before Adam sinned makes God come across as very evil and the Devil an innocent pawn in God's grand design

What I am puzzled is where did this idea of Adam's sin being part of a grand plan come from?

 

[prodromos]

The word &#948;&#953;&#954;&#945;&#953;&#959;&#963;&#973;&#957;&#951;, “justice”, is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word means “the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation”. It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed which means “mercy”, “compassion”, “love”, and to the word, emeth which means “fedelity”, “truth”. This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.5 This is how the Church understood God’s justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it. “How can you call God just”, writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, “when you read the passage on the wage given to the workers? ’Friend, I do thee no wrong; I will give unto this last even as unto thee who worked for me from the first hour. Is thine eye evil, because I am good? ’” “How can a man call God just”, continues Saint Isaac, “when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son, who wasted his wealth in riotous living, and yet only for the contrition which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck, and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him lest we doubt it, and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for whilst we were sinners, Christ died for us!”6

So we see that God is not just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving. That is why Saint Isaac teaches us: “Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. "He is good", He says, "to the evil and impious".7

God is good, loving, and kind toward those who disregard, disobey, and ignore Him.8 He never returns evil for evil, He never takes vengeance.9 His punishments are loving means of correction, as long as anything can be corrected and healed in this life.’10 They never extend to eternity. He created everything good.11 The wild beasts recognize as their master the Christian who through humility has gained the likeness of God. They draw near to him, not with fear, but with joy, in grateful and loving submission; they wag their heads and lick his hands and serve him with gratitude. The irrational beasts know that their Master and God is not evil and wicked and vengeful, but rather full of love12. (See also St. Isaac of Syria, &#931;&#969;&#950;&#972;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#945; &#913;&#963;&#954;&#951;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#940; [Athens, 1871], pp. 95-96.) He protected and saved us when we fell. The eternally evil has nothing to do with God. It comes rather from the will of His free, logical creatures, and this will He respects.

From The River of Fire - by Alexander Kalomiros
Footnotes

 

[LightBearer]

It was part of the plan. We only know love because of hate, we only know good because of evil, we only know right because of wrong. God planned this from the beginning. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that Adam could NOT have sinned. Saying that God did not know if Adam would sin or not, or that he didn't PLAN on him sinning is way off base. He made us after all!!! He knew what he was doing right down to our every thought. Why in the world would he make Adam (who messed up almost emmediately) like he was if he didn't plan it that way. God is in control! Total control.
God showed himself to us in everyway and finally, as a final revelation, sent Jesus, to show us HIMSELF and show us what LOVE really is, so we would have an example to follow,and a glimpse of what is to come.

I do hope you realise blessedbe that in this statement you are supporting Satan in his charge against God and his creation. Though I know that this is not your intention. Let me clarify.

Satan, having succeeded in his purpose to deflect our first parents the perfect Adam and Eve, falsely charged that God could not put on earth men and women that would remain faithful to him under pressure and temptation. (Job 2: 4). Jehovah though knew that this base charge was false, but so that he could demonstrate that fact to others he had to give Satan free hand in endeavoring to prove his charge. The book of Job highlights this Universal Issue. Job, although an imperfect man and prone to wrong thinking made mistakes which resulted in Jehovah correcting him, nevertheless, he kept his integrity to Jehovah through horrendous pressure and trial and for which he was duly rewarded.

But to fully prove Satan’s charge false, Jehovah needed to provide Satan with another perfect man, nothing more nothing less. With Jesus, Jehovah presented Satan with that man, one that would prove his charge false once and for all and demonstrate that a perfect man can keep perfect integrity and be perfectly loyal and faithful under any trial. Jesus fully and perfectly demonstrated the falsity of Satan’s charge and kept perfect integrity to Jehovah. "For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin". Hebrews 4:15

This demonstrated that there was nothing wrong or flawed with God’s creation. Adam, the first perfect human Son of God could have remained perfectly loyal and faithful to Jehovah just as Jesus the second perfect human Son of God did.

This is one more reason why Jesus had to be in every way the equivalent of what Adam was, simply a perfect man, a second Adam as it were. (2 Cor 15: 45). If Jesus were anything more than what Adam was then Satan would have had cause to take issue.

Regards,

LB

 

[blessedbe]

[

QUOTE=LightBearer]


I do hope you realise blessedbe that in this statement you are supporting Satan in his charge against God and his creation. Though I know that this is not your intention. Let me clarify.

Satan, having succeeded in his purpose to deflect our first parents the perfect Adam and Eve, falsely charged that God could not put on earth men and women that would remain faithful to him under pressure and temptation. (Job 2: 4). Jehovah though knew that this base charge was false, but so that he could demonstrate that fact to others he had to give Satan free hand in endeavoring to prove his charge. The book of Job highlights this Universal Issue. Job, although an imperfect man and prone to wrong thinking made mistakes which resulted in Jehovah correcting him, nevertheless, he kept his integrity to Jehovah through horrendous pressure and trial and for which he was duly rewarded.
[

and you tell me that I am accusing God of bein horrible and mean! Look at what you are telling me. God LET SATAN DO THAT. THere was a point to it all. And there is a point to all of this.

I am saying to myself anyone with such a view has probably not travelled the world to see the horrors that actually take place, has not spent time in hospitals to see human misery etc etc.

To say the unimaginable misery humans have gone through and still suffer to be all part of a grand plan of God before Adam sinned makes God come across as very evil and the Devil an innocent pawn in God's grand design

So tell me Mawuvi, what are we doing here??? If God messed up with Adam, and never entended for him to sin, why didn't he just start over??? What's he got to prove now?? Why let us go thru thousands of years of misery to prove a point? Sounds to me like THAT is cruel.

We only know love because of hate????? That is really, really an awful thing to say. The Bible says that God is love. Did he not know love prior to Satan, and Adam and Eve's sinning? And a newborn in the arms of his mother and father? Does he not know love because he was not thrown across the room?

It sounds like, one cannot appreciate the beauty of creation until they have been blinded. Or one cannot appreciate their hand until it has been chopped off.

Certainly Jehovah God did not intend or plan for Adam to sin. He encouraged him like any loving parent to do what is right. Any loving parent does not plan for their child to do wrong.

You cannot compare God to a HUMAN father. That is rediculous!! Of course he knew love before Adam!! And NO, I don't think a newborn "knows" love. It know contentment, hunger, tiredness, happiness, but it certainly doesn't know what "love" is.

As a parent, I know that my children will mess up, I know that they will do wrong, I know they will make bad decisions, but I can't keep them in a bubble and not let them experience life. They have to make decisions on their own. Hopefully, they will listen to my guidance, hopefully I can lead by example, hopefully they will do alot more right than wrong. But they have to experience all these things. But see, you can't limit God to this. The comparison is THIN at best. God is compared as a parent only because that is the best example we have of the kind of love he has for us.

The word &#948;&#953;&#954;&#945;&#953;&#959;&#963;&#973;&#957;&#951;, “justice”, is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word means “the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation”. It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed which means “mercy”, “compassion”, “love”, and to the word, emeth which means “fedelity”, “truth”. This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.

That is really cool. I've never heard that put that way before. It makes alot of sense.

 

[emerald Dragon]

Thanks for the nice reply eD,
I think however that we maybe at odds as to whether Adam was immortal in the Garden of Eden!
To be immortal would mean that you cannot die, but Adam did die.
Also you assert that Jesus still had the nature of the divine while on earth, but the gist of my post was that for Christ to be qualified to give his life as the ransom, he had to be the exact equivalent of Adam. That would then mean that you have to make Adam into a "part divine being" for christ to be an equivilent, which he was not!

With Thanks,
LogicalFallacy,

I believe that had Adam not partaken of the fruit, he would not have died. The bible says that they would surely die if they ate of the fruit of the tree. When he ate the fruit, he allowed mortality to exist (and the ability to procreate fo course).

Christ could never get rid of His divine nature. That is how He was able to heal the sick, etc. But He was mortal. That is true. He had to be a mortal to fulfill His mission. All of us have a very small part of divine nature, being creations of God, but Christ had (and has) it in abundance, which allowed Him to be perfect and compensate for our sins. There are two sides to this. No mere mortal could overcome the sins of the world, so one of divine nature had to so it. But, it had to be done as a mortal, so Christ became one in order to fulfill Hi mission. I respect and understand your opinion, and just wised to add to where I felt it needed to be added to-in other words, state what I beleive as well.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[emerald Dragon]

but he had to be "just a man", because otherwise you would have to negate true justice, or you would have to make Adam something more than just a man, he wasn't, therefore your argument is unscriptual!
LF,

He had to take on the qualities of man, to fullfill the destiny. However, no person who was "just a man" could have made the Atonement! Divind justice calls for a great ransom for the sins of the world. No man could have doe that. So one who was divine had to do it. So Jesus was sent. But, because of teh needs of the mission and the price, He needed to be mortal, yet divine. He neede to have a mortal body, live a mortal life, and die-without that , the ransom could not have been paid. But it could only be paid by someone who is divine. Thus, only Christ could have paid the price.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[emerald Dragon]

The sin in the the Garden of Eden was necessary. Without, we wouldn't exist. With, it though, sin entered into the presence of God, so they were kicked out, to remein from His presence, unti they were clean and pure. But the sin was necessary, and God planned for it to happen. He wanted us to have free agency, so it was necessary. I'll find something later on on this subject.

God Bless,
Emerald dragon

 

[mawuvi]

The sin in the the Garden of Eden was necessary. Without, we wouldn't exist.

How did you come to this conclusion? Chapter and verse where this is in the Bible would do nicely.

On the other hand what I see in the Bible is the opposite of what you are saying. Before the Devil had even tempted man God had given the very first command, which is to be fruitful anf fill the earth. I hope you understand what that means, God was telling Adam and Eve to have sex as much as possible to fill the Earth. This means that if Adam had not sinned before their first child was born we would have perfect humans populating the Earth FREE of all the evils that plague the world today.

 

[mawuvi]

Christ could never get rid of His divine nature. That is how He was able to heal the sick, etc.

From your statement are we to conclude that humans that possesses the same sort of healing powers have a divine nature?

 

[StormeTorque]

To say the unimaginable misery humans have gone through and still suffer to be all part of a grand plan of God before Adam sinned makes God come across as very evil and the Devil an innocent pawn in God's grand design

I have an idea why. I would have no problem with God creating misery or suffering if his eventual plan was to reconcile all back to himself.

Consider this - God wants us all to have free will. He could have created a world where there were no diseases/sin/natural disasters, and where everyone would be robots. How then would there be free will to choose God?

Perhaps God wanted to give us free will, but also wanted us to willingly choose us of our own free will. Why not create a world with evil to test us then? Once we have experienced total misery and suffering, and if God is all-loving, then what would stop us willingly choosing God in the end? Everyone would want to worship God, but keep their free will.

The idea of universal reconciliation solves many problems such as the existance of evil etc, and also shows God to be all-powerful (since everyone will be saved) and totally sovereign over his creation.