nobdysfool
The original! Accept no substitutes!
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Your understanding of John 6:39 is not supported. And your understand if what is meant by a seal in Ephesians 1:13 is way off the mark. A seal meant possession. Like the wax seal on a royal document. Do a little research. And take some time and read John 10 about how Christ is the good shepherd and will not loose ANY that the Father has given Him. Once you understand those, the rest will make sense.Your belief that there is a rift in the Trinity in my view is based upon a false interpretation of two passages (i.e. John 6:37-40 and Ephesians 1:13-14).
As for Christ's statement that He should lose nothing in John 6:37-40, please check out what I already said in this thread here on that:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...se-to-sin-moved.7902727/page-12#post-68697519
As for Ephesians 1:13-14:
What is a guarantee?
Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.
Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evilspirit from the LORD troubled him.
Psalm 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me
Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.
Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also
This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.
Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.
Acts. 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —
Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus.
Hebrews 3:6-19
3 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preachedentered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 6: 11-12
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not
Source Used:
http://bjorkbloggen.com/2012/04/22/...-redemption-but-a-seal-can-be-broken-eph-430/
Still ignoring the posts you can't answer, I see....
Your understanding of John 6:39 is not supported. And your understand if what is meant by a seal in Ephesians 1:13 is way off the mark. A seal meant possession. Like the wax seal on a royal document. Do a little research. And take some time and read John 10 about how Christ is the good shepherd and will not loose ANY that the Father has given Him. Once you understand those, the rest will make sense.
I believe you are Parabolically wrong;God's Truth is consistent not only within the Word itself but with reality or the real world, too. OSAS cannot be made into a real parable or real world example and it's envitable conclusion is an ignoring of God's laws on some level.
Or not, as I've shown above IMO.[/QUOTE]So OSAS is dirty and not true.
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I believe you are Parabolically wrong;
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
He was a 'son of the father', squandered his inheritance and severed his fellowship became 'dead and lost'. Only to become "alive again" and "found". So now you have an opportunity to support your parabolic view with scripture.
As far a a real world example, I've been involved with a lot of believers who got saved, went three steps forward and then got lost two steps backward. Actually some 'believers' go so far as to become worse than before, and then come back. Have you never ministered to such individuals? If not then again support your 'real world example' of how they can't.
Or not, as I've shown above IMO.
Or I've made a case you don't understand from your POV. So explain my error from your POV.These are all points I use against Eternal Security. So it sounds like you made a good case against OSAS or Once Saved Always Saved for me, my friend.
...
In other words, you're right because you say you are, and anyone who says differently can't be right, because you're right...
Using a scripture speaking of Lucifer to try and prove a point about man is a new low, and a horrible exegesis.
You have shown that you believe that the moment a Believer sins, they are no longer saved. No allowance made for Grace at all. I guess maybe the question you should be answering is, How many times have you been saved today? Or, How many times have you lost your Salvation today?
Just because a position can be misunderstood does not make it incorrect.
Hillsage just undercut your entire system. Please have the humility to acknowledge that.
First rule when you find yourself in a hole: Stop digging!
You forgot one very important phrase: IN YOUR OPINION.
If salvation is nothing you do, then everyone would be saved.
God does not "zap" people into the Kingdom of God with a ray gun. It doesn't work like that.
For if God forced people to believe, then all of mankind would be saved because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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So that means David never knew God because he fell into a time of sin? Then how did he take down Goliath?
Wait, let me guess, do you believe people in the Old Testament were not born again?
If so, then how could somebody circumcise their own heart? For those who were not circumcised in heart and not circumcised physically could not enter the Temple (Ezekiel 44:9).
Anyways, the 1st epistle of John was addressing the gnostic's false beliefs that they can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved. It is essentially refuting Once Saved Always Saved.
But if you want to look at these texts in relation to the entirety of the Bible, then you must know that Ezekiel 18 says,
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).
In other words, when a believer turns back to sinning, God no longer remembers their previous righteousness. For God identifies with the righteous and not the unrighteous. So if a believer falls back into sin, it's as if they never existed in his memory for them as a righteous person because of the evil that they done. This is why they need to repent and confess their sin like David did (and get their heart right with God). For David said to the LORD not to take His Holy Spirit from him (See Psalm 51).
And we have "free will" to choose God and or not to choose God even as a believer. For if we.... "willfully" sin afer we.... "received." the knowledge of the truth (i.e. the faith or an acceptance of Christ).
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"
....
I'm still waiting for an answer. If you think this was 'it'...it isn't as it refutes nothing I said and is simply based on the authority of your opinion. And my opinion is opposite.Sorry, I disagree. Why? Because....
#1. There is one obvious plain meaning to Scripture in many verses that is against OSAS.
#2. OSAS does not line up with a real world example (of which Jesus used to illustrate spiritual truths).
#3. OSAS is against morality on some level. God is good and He is not evil.
....
I believe you are Parabolically wrong;
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
He was a son of the father', squandered his inheritance and severed his fellowship became 'dead and lost'. Only to become "alive again" and "found". So now you have an opportunity to support your parabolic view with scripture.
As far a a real world example, I've been involved with a lot of believers who got saved, went three steps forward and then got lost two steps backward. Actually some 'believers' go so far as to become worse than before, and then come back. Have you never ministered to such individuals? If not then again support your 'real world example' of how they can't.
Or not, as I've shown above IMO.
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service,
13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. - 1 Timothy 1:12-16
Regardless of the verses surrounding it, verse 15 is still present tense.
You need to take some time to understand the tension between the flesh and the spirit. That's what Paul is constantly talking about. Paul understood the gospel. He understood that we are inherently sinful, and we will constantly struggle with the flesh. That's why he was always telling the churches to not sin. Not once does he ever say if you sin you'll lose your salvation. But he was concerned about their sanctification. So while he was warning them not to sin, it was always couched in the gospel of grace.
One thing you need to learn is that you'll never be good enough.
Which is why we need a savior. And it's why we are described as sheep (who need a shepherd), and as children with a loving father. These are relationships that cannot be broken.
When you list 10 different points in a post, I will not respond. It makes posts unnecessarily long. But I will address one point.And the context of verse 13-14 defines the present tense statement as referring to the past. For example: I can say I was formerly the President of the United States. Then I could then state (in the present tense) that in my experience, I am a great leader of a Nation (referring back to the time I was President) and then continue to make a point in regards to that past qualification (with a present tense statement). Your interpretation of the text does not make sense because he is saying he is formerly a great sinner and he still is currently a great sinner. If that was the case, then it would make Paul one of the biggest hypocrites because he talks a lot about living holy and righteous. In other words, you cannot tell people to do something that you have not done yourself.
No. You are refusing to answer the apparent contradictions that you are faced with your interpretation. Again, explain to me how Paul can say at one point he is "sold under sin" and then shortly thereafter say that he is "free from sin." So which is it? Does Paul have a split personality?
Which is strongly against the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Jesus told the woman to, "sin no more." I think he meant what he said. Jesus also said in John 8 that he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus said this to the Pharisees and I highly doubt he said this in a postive way but in a negative way. In addition, 1 Peter 4:1 says he that suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's havew crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus said, be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Paul said if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. Wouldn't your "You will never be good enough" doctrine be in direct opposition to the doctrine of Godliness? David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD. Jesus says pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you sin if you are not being tempted (because you prayed so as to be led away from temptation)? Paul says sin shall not have dominon over you. If one can never stop sinning, then how can sin not have dominion over them?
Yes, relationships with God can be broken. What do you think happened in the Garden of Eden? Or what do you think happened at Mt. Sinai with the Israelites?
....
When you list 10 different points in a post, I will not respond. It makes posts unnecessarily long.
But I will address one point.
You asked "How can you sin if you are not being tempted (because you prayed so as to be led away from temptation)? "
What exactly are you asking God to do? And why?
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.The sheep that cannot be taken out of the Lord's hand are sheep that FOLLOW Him. As for the other passages I provided Scripture to support my view: You are going to have to show me how the interpretation on the context I provided does not apply.
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