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LDS How is LDS epistemology defined?

Daniel Marsh

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Quick reference:

If you see something you're not sure of, check the copyright.

If the copyright says "Copyright Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Copyright Intellectual Reserve", it's official church material and is officially accepted.

If the copyright is from any other source, then it's not official.

Sounds too artificial and thus not valid. Someone is right to point out the inconsistent use of quotes.

In fact that game sounds perfectly Catholic Roman Church like to me.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It would seem to matter to me. We know the Lord spoke the truth, so if we agree with the Lord, then we know the truth. Or do we need to define "epistemoloty"? I had to google that.

I googled and here are some of the meanings I found, I am not giving complete quotes on Encyclopedias, so please follow the links for those.

"
Epistemology, in a most general way, is that branch of philosophy which is concerned with the value of human knowledge.

The name epistemology, is of recent origin, but especially since the publication of Ferrier's "Institutes of Metaphysics: the Theory of Knowing and Being" (1854), it has come to be used currently instead of other terms, still sometimes met with, like applied logic, material or critical logic, critical or initial philosophy, etc. To the same part of philosophy the name criteriology is given by the authors of some Latin textbooks and by the Louvain School.

The exact province of epistemology is as yet but imperfectly determined, the two main views corresponding to the two meanings of the Greek word epistéme. According as this is understood in its more general sense of knowledge, or in its more special sense of scientific knowledge, epistemology is "the theory of the origin, nature and limits of knowledge" (Baldwin, "Dict. of Philos. and Psychol.", New York, 1901, s.v. "Epistemology", I, 333; cf. "Gnosiology",I,414); or "the philosophy of the sciences", and more exactly, "the critical study of the principles, hypotheses and results of the various sciences, designed to determine their logical (not psychological) origin, their value and objective import" ("Bulletin de la Société fran¸aise de Philos.", June, 1905, fasc. no. 7 of the Vocabulaire philosophique, s.v. "Epistémologie", 221; cf. Aug., 1906, fasc. 9 of the Vocabul., s.v. "Gnoséologie", 332). The Italian usage agrees with the French. According to Ranzoli ("Dizionario di seienze filosofiche", Milan, 1905, s.v. "Epistemologia", 226; cf. "Gnosiologia", 286), epistemology "determines the objects of every science by ascertaining their differentiating characteristics, fixes their relations and common principles, the laws of their development and their special methods".

...


The first efforts of Greek thinkers centre around the study of nature. This early philosophy is almost exclusively objective, and supposes, without examining it, the validity of knowledge. Doubt arose later chiefly from the disagreement of philosophers in determining the primordial elements of matter and in discussing the nature and attributes of reality. Parmenides holds that it is unchangeable; Heraclitus, that it is constantly changing; Democritus endows it with an eternal inherent motion, while Anaxagoras requires an independent and intelligent motor. This led the Sophists to question the possibility of certitude, and prepared the way for their sceptical tendencies. With Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, who oppose the Sophists, the power of the mind to know truth and reach certitude is vindicated, and the conditions for the validity of knowledge are examined. But epistemological questions are not yet treated on their own merits, nor kept sufficiently distinct from purely logical and metaphysical inquiries.
" CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Epistemology For copy right purposes I am trying to quote less than 15% of an entry.

"Defined narrowly, epistemology is the study of knowledge and justified belief. As the study of knowledge, epistemology is concerned with the following questions: What are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge? What are its sources? What is its structure, and what are its limits? As the study of justified belief, epistemology aims to answer questions such as: How we are to understand the concept of justification? What makes justified beliefs justified? Is justification internal or external to one's own mind? Understood more broadly, epistemology is about issues having to do with the creation and dissemination of knowledge in particular areas of inquiry. This article will provide a systematic overview of the problems that the questions above raise and focus in some depth on issues relating to the structure and the limits of knowledge and justification." Epistemology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"
Epistemology is the study of knowledge. Epistemologists concern themselves with a number of tasks, which we might sort into two categories.

First, we must determine the nature of knowledge; that is, what does it mean to say that someone knows, or fails to know, something? This is a matter of understanding what knowledge is, and how to distinguish between cases in which someone knows something and cases in which someone does not know something. While there is some general agreement about some aspects of this issue, we shall see that this question is much more difficult than one might imagine.

Second, we must determine the extent of human knowledge; that is, how much do we, or can we, know? How can we use our reason, our senses, the testimony of others, and other resources to acquire knowledge? Are there limits to what we can know? For instance, are some things unknowable? Is it possible that we do not know nearly as much as we think we do? Should we have a legitimate worry about skepticism, the view that we do not or cannot know anything at all?

While this article provides on overview of the important issues, it leaves the most basic questions unanswered; epistemology will continue to be an area of philosophical discussion as long as these questions remain." https://www.iep.utm.edu/epistemo/

Very short and inadequate definition,

"
the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity
"

From the definitions given, both online discussion definitions of Christian and LDS are lacking.

Introduction to Philosophy by Norman Geisler is worth reading.

Norm Geisler International Ministries
P.O. Box 2638
Indian Trail, NC 28079
NGIM | About Us

Introduction to Philosophy: A Christian Perspective
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Agreed with all this, with the obvious statement about having things in context, taking the time to understand, and keeping a prayer in our heart to guide understanding.

John 4:24 Good News Translation (GNT)
24 God is Spirit, and only by the power of his Spirit can people worship him as he really is.”

Jesus clearly says that the Father is Spirit, LDS here have claimed that He is Flesh and Bone.

Clearly LDS don't believe what Jesus plainly said.
 
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Jane_Doe

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John 4:24 Good News Translation (GNT)
24 God is Spirit, and only by the power of his Spirit can people worship him as he really is.”

Jesus clearly says that the Father is Spirit, LDS here have claimed that He is Flesh and Bone.

Clearly LDS don't believe what Jesus plainly said.
"Plainly said" = didn't say at all.

The verse doesn't state "The Father is a spirit".
 
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Daniel Marsh

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*roll eyes* all you want. You were speaking on the doctrinal beliefs of the lds using a non-doctrinal quote of some random lds from a non-doctrinal source and characterizing is as "of central foundation/principle/purpose/etc of the LDS faith". I don't know where you got the authority to speak for the lds church on the matter.

It's okay, then, to use a "non-doctrinal" sources to describe doctrinal beliefs?

God is invisible and dwells in unapproachable light, 1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Relating to Moses, You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully (Deuteronomy 4:15).

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen (1 Timothy 1:17).

"You cannot see my face; for no man shall see me, and live" (Exodus 33:20).

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15).

He is not limited,

Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty (Job 11:7).

To whom then will you liken me, or to whom shall I be equal says the Holy One (Isaiah 40:25).

"Summary

The Bible teaches that God is spirit. A spirit, by definition, is invisible. It does not have any physical form. God, therefore, has no physical form. This is one of the reasons that the Lord did not allow idols of him to be made. How God can exist as a spirit without any sort of body is a divine mystery.

The Bible speaks of God as the invisible God.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, took upon Himself human nature including a physical form when He came to the earth, but did not possess a divine body."
Does God Have a Physical Body?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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"Plainly said" = didn't say at all.

The verse doesn't state "The Father is a spirit".

I need to cook dinner. But in closing using context, in context Jesus is speaking about the Father.

John 4
21 Jesus said unto her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither on this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

24 God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
 
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Jane_Doe

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I need to cook dinner. But in closing using context, in context Jesus is speaking about the Father.

John 4
21 Jesus said unto her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither on this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

24 God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Frankly, having this conversation with Creedal Christians always makes me feel (at best) like the kid shouting the obvious truth "the Emperor has no clothes" or (at worst) like Creedal Christians or denying Christ's divinity. Both of which are headache inducing, so I'll just skip that conversation.
 
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Ironhold

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Sounds too artificial and thus not valid.

Anything with official sanction by the church is put out by the church itself, so of course it'd be copyrighted in the church's name.

How is that artificial?

That's a functional application of US Copyright Law.

Granted, US Copyright Law is the stuff of nightmares under normal circumstances (those legal forms *will* haunt your nightmares...), but here it's been re-purposed into something simple.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Anything with official sanction by the church is put out by the church itself, so of course it'd be copyrighted in the church's name.

How is that artificial?

That's a functional application of US Copyright Law.

Granted, US Copyright Law is the stuff of nightmares under normal circumstances (those legal forms *will* haunt your nightmares...), but here it's been re-purposed into something simple.
Unfortunately, not all lds on this forum believe this. Quotes from official church manuals or lds.org are not always welcomed sources, especially when said material is quoting from an lds leader (i.e., JS, BY, McConkie, etc.), the Ensign, or some other lds source.

There is an obvious difference between what some lds on here believe (4 standard works only) and what is taught/endorsed/sanctioned by the lds church.
 
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dzheremi

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Seems to be a way of making sure they cover all their bases. If you quote from one of these sources that are not the 4 standard works (e.g., the Ensign, the History of the Church, etc.), they can reply "That's not doctrine, because it doesn't come from the 4 standard works", whereas if you quote from one of the four standard works, they can explain it via those same "non-doctrinal" sources, even from private apologists not found on LDS.org or its affiliated websites like Mormon Newsroom (as is popular with a particular poster who loves quoting from Jeff Lindsay's apologetics site).

In other words, whether or not things are to be taken as authoritative in answering questions or establishing Mormon beliefs has more to do with their use by Mormons than their content.
 
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BigDaddy4

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True. One of the more amusing "that's not doctrine" examples is that of their concept of "Heavenly Mother". She is not found in their 4 works, but there is a hymn that mentions her (hymns aren't doctrine, though) and the official lds.org website says it is a "doctrine" and a "cherished and distinctive belief" of the lds. The same official website we are directed to for more information about lds beliefs on any particular topic.

Is the dog chasing the tail or the tail chasing the dog??
 
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Eloy Craft

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As I read the thread, it seems to me that underlying the comments is the question of Divine Revelation. What characterizes authentic revelation from God? What is it's source? How did it enter into human history? How do Mormons define Divine Revelation? What is it's relationship with faith and reason? I suggest agreeing on these terms if possible.
 
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Jane_Doe

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As I read the thread, it seems to me that underlying the comments is the question of Divine Revelation. What characterizes authentic revelation from God? What is it's source? How did it enter into human history? How do Mormons define Divine Revelation? What is it's relationship with faith and reason? I suggest agreeing on these terms if possible.
Sure. For these answers, I'm assuming you're talking about revelation for the entire Church/world.

How do Mormons define Divine Revelation? Revelation is communication from God to His children.
What is it's source? God.
How did it enter into human history? The Lord speaks through His prophets.
What is it's relationship with faith? Revelation is a function of faith.
What is it's relationship with reason? Studying things out ourselves can aide revelation, but we also must remember that God's wisdom is not our wisdom and be humble.
 
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dzheremi

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we also must remember that God's wisdom is not our wisdom and be humble.

How do you square this with the 'burning in the bosom' that is taught in your religion to confirm the truth of the individual's question (e.g., that the BOM is true, or whatever else)? That is radically subjective and reliant on a person's individual feelings and sensations, which pretty much precludes humility insofar as it assumes that your individual feelings, sensations, and the conclusions drawn from them cannot be wrong, as they are (assumed to be/taught to be) from 'God'.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Sure. For these answers, I'm assuming you're talking about revelation for the entire Church/world.


No. Mainstream Christianity defines Divine Revelation quite differently than Mormons
Example, the public revelation ended when the last Apostle who witnessed God's public ministry died.

The public revelation ended. No more can be added. Now, guided by the Holy Spirit we learn the fullness of the Truth already revealed.
 
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Eloy Craft

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How do Mormons define Divine Revelation? Revelation is communication from God to His children.
This is so generic it has little value to a meaningful discussion. I'm sorry to say its little more with the other definitions although they do give rise to questions.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Revelation is a function of faith.
Do you mean that Divine Revelation is contingent on faith? A function of faith is to cause God to reveal more of Himself?

What is it's relationship with reason? Studying things out ourselves can aide revelation, bu
How does reason aid Divine Revelation?
 
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