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Prison, then, is immoral. Taxes are immoral. Speeding tickets are immoral. Taking privileges away from my children is immoral. What else can you think of?Close. Actions intended to cause undesirable things to happen to people is immoral. Subjugating someone as a slave is undesirable to that person. Therefore, slavery is immoral.
To be taken seriously, you need to post something serious. With a little more depth than 'people don't like to be hurt' which is treated like some deep and meaningful principle with its own acronym. And please don't deny what you have said. It's not strawmanning. It's called 'quoting'.Bradskii, if you don't have the ability to put your best foot forward rationally and give people the best of what you "demand" in return (ie. not strawmanning your interlocutor), how do you expect anyone on this entire forum to take you seriously?
Not true at all. People go to gaol because they did a crime. Taxes allow society in which one lives to function.Prison, then, is immoral. Taxes are immoral. Speeding tickets are immoral. Taking privileges away from my children is immoral. What else can you think of?
To be taken seriously, you need to post something serious. With a little more depth than 'people don't like to be hurt' which is treated like some deep and meaningful principle with its own acronym. And please don't deny what you have said. It's not strawmanning. It's called 'quoting'.
Prison, then, is immoral. Taxes are immoral. Speeding tickets are immoral. Taking privileges away from my children is immoral. What else can you think of?
Because it's fair. Fairness is better than unfairnessWhy is equally the right thing to do?
I do.Who makes that determination?
As moral agents, each of us are measuring sticks; myself included.And why is that wrong? What measuring stick do you use to determine good and bad?
Better yet; they could have purchased them all and set them free!A bad faith argument to be sure, as they could have simply not enslaved them.
Yes! Prisons without a focus on rehabilitation are immoral. Taxes used for things that do not benefit the citizens are immoral. Speeding tickets issued primarily as a form of revenue collection rather than other measures ensuring transportation safety are immoral. Taking privileges away from children without a higher beneficial purpose is immoral. You are getting it.Prison, then, is immoral. Taxes are immoral. Speeding tickets are immoral. Taking privileges away from my children is immoral. What else can you think of?
...you like to learn? So, from whom have you learned the most, Ken? Which teachers, mentors, authors have come to mean the most to you?I love having my ideas challenged. I love discussing with people who disagree with me, and are happy to articulate why they think I’m wrong; that is how I learn, this is how I grow.
Unfortunately, there are folks who can defend their postions no matter what anyone says.If I were to surround myself with people who agree with me, I will learn nothing about those who disagree with me so when I leave my echo chamber and is forced to deal with opposing views in the real world, my arguments will fall apart like a house of cards because I will not be prepared to defend my position.
To nudge people back toward Jesus Christ ... that's why I'm even on CF in the first place. What else would my first priority be?What is your first priority?
Education. Preferrably, a well-rounded one that leads people out of their overly autonomous, nihilistically, emotively, solipsistically perpetuated delusions.What are your goals?
Pesonally, I don't. All I've done so far is tell you how I divide out a concept of 'truth' from another concept of 'Truth.'Why would you call something the truth if you don’t completely understand it?
'truth' is provisional. 'Truth' isn't.For what I do know, it's provisional. I believe truth is provisional.
How is that different from the truth?
Yes! Prisons without a focus on rehabilitation are immoral. Taxes used for things that do not benefit the citizens are immoral. Speeding tickets issued primarily as a form of revenue collection rather than other measures ensuring transportation safety are immoral. Taking privileges away from children without a higher beneficial purpose is immoral. You are getting it.
Keep in mind that any action will result in a ripple of consequences, all of which must be carefully considered in something we call a moral calculus to determine if the ends justify the means. You can disagree over which ends justify which means, but now you’ve accepted the core principle and now we’re only haggling over the price.
So you disagree that “Actions intended to cause undesirable things to happen to people is immoral.”Not true at all. People go to gaol because they did a crime. Taxes allow society in which one lives to function.
Taking privileges from a child might be immoral.
A bad faith argument to be sure, as they could have simply not enslaved them.
Fairness in outcome or opportunity?Because it's fair. Fairness is better than unfairness
What if someone disagrees?I do.
How do you know if your measuring stick is accurate?As moral agents, each of us are measuring sticks; myself included.
I knew that the equivocation would come. I’m not disappointed.Yes! Prisons without a focus on rehabilitation are immoral. Taxes used for things that do not benefit the citizens are immoral. Speeding tickets issued primarily as a form of revenue collection rather than other measures ensuring transportation safety are immoral. Taking privileges away from children without a higher beneficial purpose is immoral. You are getting it.
Keep in mind that any action will result in a ripple of consequences, all of which must be carefully considered in something we call a moral calculus to determine if the ends justify the means. You can disagree over which ends justify which means, but now you’ve accepted the core principle and now we’re only haggling over the price.
What equivocation? Do you believe I have made a false equivocation somewhere?I knew that the equivocation would come. I’m not disappointed.
We’re all some form of consequentialist I’d say. What I’m doing is no more presumptuous than a theist insisting atheists have no foundation to their moral system.So, are we all Act Utilitarians now? I don't remember giving my consent to that proposition.
What equivocation? Do you believe I have made a false equivocation somewhere?
We’re all some form of consequentialist I’d say. What I’m doing is no more presumptuous than a theist insisting atheists have no foundation to their moral system.
Of course. It started out asWhat equivocation? Do you believe I have made a false equivocation somewhere?
But that isn’t really what you meant. When I brought up prisons, you should have agreed that they were immoral. But that isn’t what you did. You justified prisons.Actions intended to cause undesirable things to happen to people is immoral. Subjugating someone as a slave is undesirable to that person. Therefore, slavery is immoral.
Yes, I am aware. I am selling one system in contrast with his to demonstrate how his moral standard is no less arbitrary than anyone else’s. Let me cook!You do realize that there are about a dozen competing Ethical systems at play in the world, right? They each say different things about how they each conceptualize the essence/substance, reality or unreality of "consequences." That's what I'm getting at.
See the following:
Sahakian, William S. (1974). Ethics: An introduction to theories and problems. New York, NY: Barnes and Nobles Books.
Prisons as they exist in the US are immoral, which I stated clearly.Of course. It started out as
But that isn’t really what you meant. When I brought up prisons, you should have agreed that they were immoral. But that isn’t what you did. You justified prisons.
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