How is free will possible?

[Ken-1122]

We are not trapped in some postmodern solipsism where we can't trust the existence of anything accept our own experience.

What on Earth are you talking about?

No one justifies their belief in God by saying I believe God created the universe, the universe exists therefore God exists. This is a strawman of your own creation and is obviously circular.

The person I was responding to said the Universe is evidence of his God. Which is awfully close to "the Universe exists therefore God exists.

So the existence of the universe kicks off a reasoning process

Anything that begins to exist has a cause (1)

1.Something cannot come from nothing

. To claim that something can come into being out of nothing is worse than magic. When a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat, at least you've got the magician, not to mention the hat! But if you deny premise (1) you've got to think that the whole universe just appeared at some point in the past for no reason whatsoever. But nobody sincerely believes that things, say, a horse or an Eskimo village, can just pop into being without a cause.

Who claims the Universe came from nothing? That it just popped into existence? Science says the Singularity expanded to become the Universe as we know it. Of course the Singularity is as far back as they can go. So this idea that I claim the Universe just popped into existence is... (how do you say it) a straw man of your own creation

2. If something can come into being from nothing, then it becomes inexplicable why just anything or everything doesn't come into being from nothing. Think about it: why don't bicycles and Beethoven and root beer just pop into being from nothing? Why is it only universes that can pop into being from nothing? What makes nothingness so discriminatory? There can't be anything about nothingness that favors universes, for nothingness doesn't have any properties. Nor can anything constrain nothingness, since there isn't anything to be constrained!

3. Common experience and scientific evidence confirm the truth of premise (1). Premise (1) is constantly verified and never falsified. It is hard to understand how any atheist committed to modern science could deny that premise (1) is more plausibly true than false in light of the evidence.

Again; I don’t know of anybody who claims the Universe came from nothing. Is this another one of those straw man things you were talking about earlier?

 

[Ken-1122]

Are you someone special? A cut above the rest?

I am a skeptic who does not believe in God. So when you start spittin' out scriptures and quoting the bible, it is about as useless as a Muslim quoting the Koran to you. IOW quoting the Bible to prove something only works for those who believe the Bible; it doesn't work on people like me.

 

[Ken-1122]

You seemed to be saying that very thing: "And now all of that is a part of “ME” My genes are me, the culture is me, and everything else you mentioned is now a part of “ME”.

Okay I see what you are saying. The way I see it; I AM an amalgam of all those things; my genes, my culture, and countless other things make up who I am. Also I AM the same person today that I was yesterday; even though by design I am in a constant state of evolving and changing, I am still the same person.

But the person you were born as is hardly the same person that you are now. The only time you are you, is right now. In a second, quite literally and physically, you'll be a different person. There's no part of us that I know of that isn't constantly changing, I don't see some sort of essence in us that's somehow independent of anything else (people who believe in a soul will probably see it differently).

I see it differently: I am a lot more than the ingredients I am made of. Though constantly changing and maturing; I am still the same person. I could even lose a limb, become physically disfigured to the point of no longer being recognizable; and though I may look different, I will still be the same person. Again I am more than the physical ingredients that I am made of.

 

[Dave L]

I am a skeptic who does not believe in God. So when you start spittin' out scriptures and quoting the bible, it is about as useless as a Muslim quoting the Koran to you. IOW quoting the Bible to prove something only works for those who believe the Bible; it doesn't work on people like me.

But, this is a Christian forum. So we don't dance to your beat, you dance to ours.

Besides, nobody is an atheist but God. He knows all and knows there are no other god's beside him. You do not know this, so you are an atheist wannabe.

 

[Dave L]

Well then the Lord instructs me to disagree with you.

Anyway, there's still the problem of your upside down ethics.

God creates all, you do not create anything including your destiny.

 

[holo]

Okay I see what you are saying. The way I see it; I AM an amalgam of all those things; my genes, my culture, and countless other things make up who I am. Also I AM the same person today that I was yesterday; even though by design I am in a constant state of evolving and changing, I am still the same person.


I see it differently: I am a lot more than the ingredients I am made of. Though constantly changing and maturing; I am still the same person. I could even lose a limb, become physically disfigured to the point of no longer being recognizable; and though I may look different, I will still be the same person. Again I am more than the physical ingredients that I am made of.

Ah, this is interesting. How can we be more than the sum of our parts? What's this extra... ingredient?

So we agree that we're sort of made up of different parts. You can remove the body, you'd still be you, right? Say we remove part of your brain, say, your memories, are you still you? Probably yes. What if we remove another part of your brain? Is there any part of you that could be removed, and you wouldn't be you anymore?

Compare it with a car. What is a car? What if you take the engine out? Then it's a car without an engine. Same with the wheels, it'll be a car without wheels. And so on. When you analyze it like that, you will realize that there is in fact no car. Or put another way, there is no "car-ness". It's just a concept, it doesn't exist in and of itself. There's no essential part of the car that is the car.

It sounds like a mind game, but the same thing is true for people. It's true for your very being. There's no fundamental or essential part of you without which you would no longer be you. In fact, in a very fundamental way, you don't exist.

 

[durangodawood]

But ethics don't have to be only about holding people morally responsible. I think a good example is the difference between the judicial systems in the US and Scandinavia. The Scandinavian countries are, very broadly speaking, more concerned with protecting the innocent and rehabilitating the criminal, while in the US the focus seems to be more on protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty. You'll probably never see the death penalty in Scandinavia, much less the families of the victim being allowed to witness the execution.

Point being, you can say that actions or consequences are good or bad without necessarily saying that the perpetrator is evil.

Oh I totally agree. In the US we have this magical view that the individual is almost totally responsible for their own condition in the world.

When I argue for "libertarian" free will, I consider it, as I said earlier, "a mouse squeak in the roar of daily life".... at least in the typical case. You have this spark of free will that has to contest with your own biology plus a lifetime of social conditioning plus your immediate circumstances.

 

[durangodawood]

God creates all, you do not create anything including your destiny.

In any proper ethical system you can only be considered "responsible" for what you create, including your own actions and decisions.

Its clear that your preferred theology leads to an upside-down ethics, in which you are responsible for what another being determines. This is morally backwards.

 

[durangodawood]

...That is why Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism was so devastating to philosophical materialism.

If the wikipedia article is worthy, then EAAN performs extremely poorly. Perhaps I need to find a better explanation?

 

[Dave L]

In any proper ethical system you can only be considered "responsible" for what you create, including your own actions and decisions.

Its clear that your preferred theology leads to an upside-down ethics, in which you are responsible for what another being determines. This is morally backwards.

This is the finer point of the issue. People do what they want and are therefore responsible. But God provides all of the reasons they base their decisions on.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I guess this belongs in the philosophy forum, but that's closed. But it's relevant to ethics because the idea of free will is a prerequisite for even talking about ethical and moral issues.

Anyway, I'm wondering how a truly free will can even be possible? The reason I doubt it is because absolutely everything, even the tiniest signal between two synapses in your brain, happens for a reason. The only way to alter the outcome of something is to alter the conditions. In other words, if you rewind time for, say, 10 minutes, without changing anything, the exact same thing would happen a million times in a row, whether it's a coin toss or a thought. At what point, and how, does this proposed free will enter the equation?

Note: don't confuse making choices with having free will. We obviously make choices all the time. The question is if the choice could in fact really have been different, given all the things that lead up to that choice. As far as I can tell, the only way for your brain to have made a different choice, is if your brain was different to begin with.

Only God has total free will, as all other beings can have their choices influenced by internal/external forces!

 

[durangodawood]

This is the finer point of the issue. People do what they want and are therefore responsible. But God provides all of the reasons they base their decisions on.

Then "what they want" is an illusion. Its fake. What's actually at play is what God wants, if He provides the reasons for wanting.

 

[Dave L]

Then "what they want" is an illusion. Its fake. What's actually at play is what God wants, if he provides the reasons for wanting.

No, it is genuine based on their nature, their education, the forces bearing down on them, etc. All created along with them as part of their fourth dimension of time.

 

[durangodawood]

No, it is genuine based on their nature, their education, the forces bearing down on them, etc. All created along with them as part of their fourth dimension of time.

Your view of the human soul is like some sort of computer program that "wants" the things the coder designed it to want.

In a shallow way I might blame the program for its bugs. But we all know its the programmer whos actually responsible.

 

[Dave L]

Your view of the human soul is like some sort of computer program that "wants" the things the coder designed it to want.

In a shallow way I might blame the program for its bugs. But we all know its the programmer whos actually responsible.

God created all. This includes the lives we would live and the choices we would make. But all for his glory.

 

[durangodawood]

God created all. This includes the lives we would live and the choices we would make. But all for his glory.

"....this one goes to eleven."

 

[Ken-1122]

But, this is a Christian forum. So we don't dance to your beat, you dance to ours.

True it is a christian forum, but it is the “ethics and morality” section of the Christian forum, not the religious section. And its not about dancing to anyone’s beat, it’s about responding in a way that makes sense.

Besides, nobody is an atheist but God. He knows all and knows there are no other god's beside him. You do not know this, so you are an atheist wannabe.

So your God is an Atheist, and because I am unaware your God is an atheist, that makes me an atheist wannabe? Priceless!!!!
You read this stuff outta a book? Or do you just make stuff up as you go along? Also; were you sober when you thought that up?

 

[Ken-1122]

Ah, this is interesting. How can we be more than the sum of our parts? What's this extra... ingredient?

Stuff like; Life, intelligence, thought….. You know; the part of me that is non physical.

So we agree that we're sort of made up of different parts. You can remove the body, you'd still be you, right?

If you remove that stuff from my body, all you will have is a dead body; I will no longer exist.

Say we remove part of your brain, say, your memories, are you still you? Probably yes. What if we remove another part of your brain? Is there any part of you that could be removed, and you wouldn't be you anymore?

Whatever part you remove; if it dies, it is no longer me but just the sum of my ingredients.

Compare it with a car. What is a car? What if you take the engine out? Then it's a car without an engine. Same with the wheels, it'll be a car without wheels. And so on. When you analyze it like that, you will realize that there is in fact no car. Or put another way, there is no "car-ness". It's just a concept, it doesn't exist in and of itself. There's no essential part of the car that is the car.

Cars don’t have life so your analogy doesn’t apply.

It sounds like a mind game, but the same thing is true for people. It's true for your very being. There's no fundamental or essential part of you without which you would no longer be you. In fact, in a very fundamental way, you don't exist.

Again; as long as I have life, I exist.

 

[Dave L]

True it is a christian forum, but it is the “ethics and morality” section of the Christian forum, not the religious section. And its not about dancing to anyone’s beat, it’s about responding in a way that makes sense.

So your God is an Atheist, and because I am unaware your God is an atheist, that makes me an atheist wannabe? Priceless!!!!
You read this stuff outta a book? Or do you just make stuff up as you go along? Also; were you sober when you thought that up?

You must be omniscient and omnipresent before you can know God does not exist. And unless you are, this is nothing more that extreme hubris and ego.

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: There is none that doeth good.” (Psalm 53:1)

 

[Dave L]

"....this one goes to eleven."

?