How is free will possible?

[Chriliman]

No, the more fundamental problem of discontentment and suffering.

Are you sure those should be lumped together? I can think of examples where people may be content, or at least not discontent, to suffer in order to reach a goal.

 

[ananda]

Are you sure those should be lumped together? I can think of examples where people may be content, or at least not discontent, to suffer in order to reach a goal.

Yes, the Buddhist view for the scenario you gave is that individuals often sacrifice short-term contentment in order to achieve greater or longer-term contentment.

 

[holo]

To impede is to obstruct, hinder, or prevent. To Influence is to cajole. I agree it is pretty much impossible to go through life without some sort of influence against whatever decision I make, but I don’t think those influences obstruct, hinder, or prevent me from doing what I choose to do.


I agree there are many things that are outside of our control, just not everything.

But again, I'm not talking about being forced to do something against your will, but that your will itself is a result of causes and conditions that you don't control. Both simple things like preferring pizza over tacos, that's not something you chose voluntarily, it's just a consequence. And also for the bigger things, like believing in some religion. While we make choices all the time, we don't freely choose what influences us to settle on whatever option we go for.

 

[holo]

I think way more people are discontented with the idea of annihilation than with the idea of eternal life.

And for those who are put off by mortal difficulties carried through eternally, the Christian model adds resurrection in bodily perfection, with all the evil people removed, plus lots of bliss. Whats not to like?

I think the most valuable thing I've learned from Buddhism is that I can be content in this life, here and now, no matter the circumstances, and regardless of whether or not there's an afterlife. To me, the question simply doesn't bother me anymore, though I suspect that death will just be death. Instead of placing my hope for a better life in a future/God I can't see, and which for every practical purpose is unreal, I can have perfect peace right now, even if life sucks in various ways.

 

[Ken-1122]

But again, I'm not talking about being forced to do something against your will, but that your will itself is a result of causes and conditions that you don't control. Both simple things like preferring pizza over tacos, that's not something you chose voluntarily, it's just a consequence. And also for the bigger things, like believing in some religion. While we make choices all the time, we don't freely choose what influences us to settle on whatever option we go for.

In your view, does having free will require the ability to choose your preferences and likes?

 

[durangodawood]

In your view, does having free will require the ability to choose your preferences and likes?

Thats covered in the advanced free-will course.

 

[Chriliman]

In your view, does having free will require the ability to choose your preferences and likes?

It's partially a semantics issue. We don't necissarily choose our preferences and likes, instead we have preferences/likes that inform our choices.

We're free to prefer/like whatever we want, but the mere fact of me being me, means I'm locked in to certain preferences/likes. Could I break free of the preferences that I'm locked into? With enough effort/desire, I think I could, but it would require changing who I am now and right now, I see no need to do that.

 

[holo]

In your view, does having free will require the ability to choose your preferences and likes?

Yes, that's the only way our will could be truly free, as far as I can understand.

 

[yaacotd]

I guess this belongs in the philosophy forum, but that's closed. But it's relevant to ethics because the idea of free will is a prerequisite for even talking about ethical and moral issues.

Anyway, I'm wondering how a truly free will can even be possible? The reason I doubt it is because absolutely everything, even the tiniest signal between two synapses in your brain, happens for a reason. The only way to alter the outcome of something is to alter the conditions. In other words, if you rewind time for, say, 10 minutes, without changing anything, the exact same thing would happen a million times in a row, whether it's a coin toss or a thought. At what point, and how, does this proposed free will enter the equation?

Note: don't confuse making choices with having free will. We obviously make choices all the time. The question is if the choice could in fact really have been different, given all the things that lead up to that choice. As far as I can tell, the only way for your brain to have made a different choice, is if your brain was different to begin with.

Trying to figure out
how is free will possible
is the least of your worries.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes, that's the only way our will could be truly free, as far as I can understand.

If you have Buddhist experience then surely youre familiar with the idea that you can overcome your own attractions and aversions.

 

[holo]

If you have Buddhist experience then surely youre familiar with the idea that you can overcome your own attractions and aversions.

Absolutely! It's a remarkable experience when you suddenly see anger as something you feel, not something you are. I think our addictions and cravings often don't go as deep as we think.

 

[holo]

Trying to figure out
how is free will possible
is the least of your worries.

Is this a haiku?

 

[yaacotd]

Is this a haiku?

No it is Wisdom.
Something you are not accustomed too.

 

[holo]

No it is Wisdom.
Something you are not accustomed too.

Well I actually already knew philosophical conundrums like this are among the least of my concerns.

But I get the feeling you think you know what my biggest worry should be. Tell me, tell me!

 

[yaacotd]

Well I actually already knew philosophical conundrums like this are among the least of my concerns.

But I get the feeling you think you know what my biggest worry should be. Tell me, tell me!

The lake of fire.

 

[holo]

The lake of fire.

I suspected it was that. Well, it's not on my list of worries anymore, because I realized I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to think such a place exists, and if it did, it would be really strange that the only way to escape it was to somehow choose to believe in certain claims about supernatural things.

Anyway, stopping believing in hell is without a doubt the best thing that ever happened to me. For more than twenty years that faith destroyed my life.

I know we're not going to convince each other about this, but I honestly feel at least as sorry for you as you do for me. You could have been free. In any case I wish you peace

 

[yaacotd]

I suspected it was that. Well, it's not on my list of worries anymore, because I realized I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to think such a place exists, and if it did, it would be really strange that the only way to escape it was to somehow choose to believe in certain claims about supernatural things.

Anyway, stopping believing in hell is without a doubt the best thing that ever happened to me. For more than twenty years that faith destroyed my life.

I know we're not going to convince each other about this, but I honestly feel at least as sorry for you as you do for me. You could have been free. In any case I wish you peace

I wish all my adversaries were as wise as you.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's partially a semantics issue. We don't necissarily choose our preferences and likes, instead we have preferences/likes that inform our choices.

We're free to prefer/like whatever we want, but the mere fact of me being me, means I'm locked in to certain preferences/likes. Could I break free of the preferences that I'm locked into? With enough effort/desire, I think I could, but it would require changing who I am now and right now, I see no need to do that.

So you COULD change your preferences if you wanted to, it's just that you do not want to. Isn't that an example of free will?

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, that's the only way our will could be truly free, as far as I can understand.

I suspect that is the reason we were talking past each other for so long; we just have different ideas of what it means to have "free will".

 

[Chriliman]

So you COULD change your preferences if you wanted to, it's just that you do not want to. Isn't that an example of free will?

Yes I agree.