How is Adventism like Atheism?

[jorgfe]

A Christian was talking with an Atheist one day. The Atheist was making fun of the Bible the Christian had. The Christian asked the Atheist, "Don't you believe that we go somewhere when we die?" The Atheist replied, "No. We just cease to exist. We just go out like a light bulb and cease to exist."

According to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, when a person dies, they just cease to exist. They just go out like a light bulb, and cease to exist. Their breath leaves them and that's it. Poof! They're gone. Nothing but dust. No soul. No spirit. Nothing but dust.

Of course that creates a real problem trying to make it to a resurrection, and so more creative theological surgery is required.

In the book, "Seventh-day Adventists Believe", page 352, it says

"Death Is a Sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection."
​

That statement doesn't even make any sense. What is "incomplete annihilation"?

To say, "the person awaits the resurrection" is equally disingenuous. What "person"? What, actually is awaiting the resurrection?

Awaiting implies anticipation. Anticipation is a function of consciousness requiring a conscious existence. Both are impossible during death according to SDA doctrine. No one and no thing dead "awaits" the resurrection.

According to SDA doctrine, how does a dead person exist? And if they don't exist, then the resurrection can have nothing to do with any person who has lived and died, but is the creation of another being altogether.

Furthermore there can be no such thing as "eternal life" for all persons who die. No other persons created in the image of the formerly living, even the exact same image, can bring them back.

Ellen White, in Great Controversy, page 588, also states that "immortality of the soul" is one of the "two great errors ... Satan will bring the people under his deceptions."

How then can Seventh-day Adventism even have a resurrection?

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[Avonia]

"Don't you believe that we go somewhere when we die?" The Atheist replied, "No. We just cease to exist. We just go out like a light bulb and cease to exist."

Gilbert you are a trip.

Do you remember everything about last night? Please describe for me continuity of consciousness as it relates to your experience over the last 12 hours.

You may be the most "Adventist" ex-Adventist I've met on Christian forums. You are mistaking conclusions (beliefs) for the thinking used to arrive at them.

Here's something to ponder. Why are you still so invested in your beliefs? Did you not learn something important about this the first go around? If you are chugging along on your learning path, your beliefs will be entirely different a few years from now. Some of the old beliefs will transition - through paying attention and experiencing - into things you know. Some of the old beliefs will be discarded. All of the new beliefs (or as Senti calls them - hypotheses) are bridges to future knowing.

 

[JonMiller]

Can't God connect a consciiousness now to a consciousness in the future without it existing at all points in between?

Many in the early church where anhilationists, and it seems in far more agreement with the Bible then any other doctrine to me (I agree that there are small parts that do seem to point to eternal damnation or universal reconciliation).

JM

 

[jorgfe]

Can't God connect a consciiousness now to a consciousness in the future without it existing at all points in between?

Many in the early church where anhilationists, and it seems in far more agreement with the Bible then any other doctrine to me (I agree that there are small parts that do seem to point to eternal damnation or universal reconciliation).

JM

What Adventism teaches is not anhilation like you refer to, but partial anhilation!

Perhaps we could ask Avonia (since I presume she is a woman) how one gets "partially pregnant". I've never heard of such a thing, and likewise Adventism concept of partial anhilation.

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[JonMiller]

I don't really care what adventism teaches.

JM

 

[Mankin]

It teaches that the human soul is made up of two things, a body and the breath of life. In death, the body decays, and the breath goes back to God. God recreates the body in a perfect form and breathes the breath of life back into it.

 

[jorgfe]

I don't really care what adventism teaches.

JM

Then you need to change your SDA identifer graphic. Someone must have slipped in when you weren't looking and set it to the SDA graphic.

Gilbert Jorgensen

It has been 164 Years, 1 Months, and 15 Days since October 22, 1844​

 

[jorgfe]

It teaches that the human soul is made up of two things, a body and the breath of life. In death, the body decays, and the breath goes back to God. God recreates the body in a perfect form and breathes the breath of life back into it.

That is a good description.

Adventism also teaches that we are "created in the image of God", therefore since, according to Adventism, our "spirit" is nothing more than the breath in our lungs, that would make the Holy Spirit of God into "Holy Breath" of God. It has a way of taking away the full significance and equality of the function of the Holy Spirit. Jesus replied that the Father, too, is Spirit -- without flesh and bones

For Adventism though that is just their start on making major modifications to the Biblical doctrine of the Holy Spirit's role. For example, the Seventh-day Adventist teaching of replacing the Holy Spirit with the Sabbath is unbiblical.

Replacing the Holy Spirit with the Seventh-day Sabbath
By calling the Sabbath God's seal instead of acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is God's seal, we have come perilously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I believe that this position is unbiblical and offensive to God. First of all, if the Word of God teaches that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God -- and I believe it does -- then the third person of the Godhead is the rightful owner of that chair. If Seventh-day Adventists have placed the Sabbath -- something that God created -- in God's chair, then Seventh-day Adventists have taken something that God created and placed it in the seat of the Deity.

Whenever they place something God created in the position He claims as His position, they've declared war on God's right to be our God! Our God is a Jealous God! I truly believe that Adventism is in serious danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit with its traditional teaching regarding the seal of God.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a dangerous place to be! I believe the Sabbath is significant, but the way the Seventh-day Adventist Church has taught it is wrong, and Seventh-day Adventism needs to corporately repent of it.
​

Gilbert Jorgensen

It has been 164 Years, 1 Months, and 15 Days since October 22, 1844​

 

[Avonia]

Adventism also teaches that we are "created in the image of God", therefore since, according to Adventism, our "spirit" is nothing more than the breath in our lungs, that would make the Holy Spirit of God into "Holy Breath" of God. It has a way of taking away the full significance and equality of the function of the Holy Spirit.

What's your experience of the Holy Spirit?

 

[jorgfe]

What's your experience of the Holy Spirit?

I'm glad that you asked!

I was reared in a very exclusive religion called Seventh-day Adventism. I had been taught from a small child that our particular church group included the only true followers of Jesus Christ. Eventually I realized that this was not true and decided to leave this environment.

As a part of this spiritual awakening the Holy Spirit has led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God.

How about you? Have you been born again?

Your friend,
Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[StormyOne]

That is a good description.

Adventism also teaches that we are "created in the image of God", therefore since, according to Adventism, our "spirit" is nothing more than the breath in our lungs, that would make the Holy Spirit of God into "Holy Breath" of God. It has a way of taking away the full significance and equality of the function of the Holy Spirit. Jesus replied that the Father, too, is Spirit -- without flesh and bones

For Adventism though that is just their start on making major modifications to the Biblical doctrine of the Holy Spirit's role. For example, the Seventh-day Adventist teaching of replacing the Holy Spirit with the Sabbath is unbiblical.

Replacing the Holy Spirit with the Seventh-day Sabbath
By calling the Sabbath God's seal instead of acknowledging that the Holy Spirit is God's seal, we have come perilously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I believe that this position is unbiblical and offensive to God. First of all, if the Word of God teaches that the Holy Spirit is the seal of God -- and I believe it does -- then the third person of the Godhead is the rightful owner of that chair. If Seventh-day Adventists have placed the Sabbath -- something that God created -- in God's chair, then Seventh-day Adventists have taken something that God created and placed it in the seat of the Deity.

Whenever they place something God created in the position He claims as His position, they've declared war on God's right to be our God! Our God is a Jealous God! I truly believe that Adventism is in serious danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit with its traditional teaching regarding the seal of God.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a dangerous place to be! I believe the Sabbath is significant, but the way the Seventh-day Adventist Church has taught it is wrong, and Seventh-day Adventism needs to corporately repent of it.
​

Gilbert Jorgensen

It has been 164 Years, 1 Months, and 15 Days since October 22, 1844​

so let me see I have this correct, your journey led you away from adventism, so now your goal is to what? Show every flaw that exists in adventism or is this a cathartic experience for you? I don't think those who hang out in this sub-forum are apologists for the sda church, so you probably won't find the 28 fundamentals or other beliefs vigorously defended... so having said that, have you moved passed having to bash what adventism believes or are you still in the purging process?

 

[StormyOne]

I'm glad that you asked!

I was reared in a very exclusive religion called Seventh-day Adventism. I had been taught from a small child that our particular church group included the only true followers of Jesus Christ. Eventually I realized that this was not true and decided to leave this environment.

As a part of this spiritual awakening the Holy Spirit has led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God.

How about you? Have you been born again?

Your friend,
Gilbert Jorgensen

"born again" is a metaphor, how are you using it and does it describe what you believed happened to you?

Given that thus far all of your posts reflect a "reaction to adventism" I think you are still linked to it in some way... is that the impression you wish to give?

 

[Avonia]

I'm glad that you asked!

Wonderful. Let's see if it lasts.

As a part of this spiritual awakening the Holy Spirit has led me into the full freedom of the gospel, and the absolute assurance that I have been saved, and that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. No one, no demon, no person, no false doctrine, no legalism can separate me from the love, the eternal love of my Savior and God.

That told me absolutely nothing about your experience of the Holy Spirit. Please be specific about the "led me into" part. Did the Holy Spirit overlay your thoughts? Create emotions? Did you feel something in your body? Did you have dreams?

How do you experience the Holy Spirit?

 

[Avonia]

How about you? Have you been born again?

I find it much like a progressive waking up. With each awakening, another possible.

So, for all intents and purposes, my answer then is . . . yes.

 

[sentipente]

Gilbert, one looks much better as a seeker than as a basher. The problem with presenting yourself as a basher is that you should be bashing the beliefs that are more current with you than some you released some time ago. If you now believe that death is a passage to another exisitence you must tell us what is the reason for a resurrection.

 

[jorgfe]

Wonderful. Let's see if it lasts.


That told me absolutely nothing about your experience of the Holy Spirit. Please be specific about the "led me into" part. Did the Holy Spirit overlay your thoughts? Create emotions? Did you feel something in your body? Did you have dreams?

How do you experience the Holy Spirit?

Seeing how your graphic identifies you as "SDA", I can certainly understand your confusion.

When I use to attend Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath morning services the Pastor would frequently pray that God would "send" the Holy Spirit -- kind of like calling "911" and asking that the police make a visit.

Adventism has a very strange external relationship with what they refer to as the "Holy Spirit". It's entirely different than the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that we as Christians experience. As New Covenant Christians we no longer have to call God's "911" number and request that the Holy Spirit give us a "house call".

You can discover more about how this works by reading about it in the New Testament. Romans and Hebrews are the "owner's manuals" for your particular model of body that you will be most able to relate to.

Gilbert Jorgensen

 

[sentipente]

You can discover more about how this works by reading about it in the New Testament. Romans and Hebrews are the "owner's manuals" for your particular model of body that you will be most able to relate to.

Gilbert Jorgensen

You did not answer the question.

 

[Avonia]

You can discover more about how this works by reading about it in the New Testament. Romans and Hebrews are the "owner's manuals" for your particular model of body that you will be most able to relate to.

Just say you don't know - or are unwilling to share. I'm quite fine with either.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

How is Adventism like atheism?

Neither Adventists nor atheists worship the Aztec god Quezecoatal.

Seriously though, is it really so hard to understand the difference between cessation of consciousness and cessation of existence?

 

[AzA]

How is Adventism like atheism?
Neither Adventists nor atheists worship the Aztec god Quezecoatal.

Lol, Soldier...
Brings to mind the comment that all men are atheists in respect to other men's gods.
There are many ways to represent a non-god through doctrine or dissociated practice; it is far from uncommon and certainly not unique to any Christian or other tradition.