How is Adventism like Atheism?

[Joe67]

How then can Seventh-day Adventism even have a resurrection?

Gilbert Jorgensen

Our Lord Jesus said that all that are in the grave will hear the voice of the Son of God.

In Ezekiel 36 the Word of the Lord by his Spirit make the dry bones live.

In Hosea 6 after 2 days the Lord revives us and the 3rd day he raises us up.

We sleep without breathing, just like Daniel when he fell on his face at the vision.

It is by the Word of the Lord, the Savior of all humanity.

Joe

 

[Avonia]

Seeing how your graphic identifies you as "SDA", I can certainly understand your confusion.

Why are you mistaking me for a religious community? I am not a religious community. I am a Divine child participating in the Adventist community.

It's entirely different than the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that we as Christians experience.

How do you experience that?

Since you are quick to tell me you have something I don't, please describe it, so I may know if it's something I want.

 

[BobRyan]

What Adventism teaches is not anhilation like you refer to, but partial anhilation!

Perhaps we could ask Avonia (since I presume she is a woman) how one gets "partially pregnant". I've never heard of such a thing, and likewise Adventism concept of partial anhilation.

Gilbert Jorgensen

A. then by definition that is not the Atheist position so what you are really doing is showing how Adventists are NOT like Atheists despite your title.

B. Christ said "Do not fear those who kill the body and can not kill the soul - but rather fear Him who can DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

The SLEEP state - is a dormant state for the soul - it is not a "non-existant state". It is not correct to say that the soul "does not exist" when a person is dead.

Christ said in John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS" He did not say "Lazarus does not exist". The 28FB position is that the person is in a dormant state until the resurrection.

Paul says in 1Thess 4 that the "Dead in Christ" are those who have "fallen asleep".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now in the name of "fairness" and giving Gilbert his due on this one. While I do agree with the SDA 28 FB statements on this subject -- I do agree that sometimes "enthusastic yet ill thought-out" illustrations and applications have been made by "some" SDA sources trying to explain the doctrine of soul sleep.

Box and nails. Bad example
Lightbulb and electricity. Bad example

Ezek 18:4 "The soul that sins it shall die" is about the 2nd death not the first death because in Ezek 18 all those who do good - LIVE! Only the wicked die in Ezek 18.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Seeing how your graphic identifies you as "SDA", I can certainly understand your confusion.

When I use to attend Seventh-day Adventist Sabbath morning services the Pastor would frequently pray that God would "send" the Holy Spirit -- kind of like calling "911" and asking that the police make a visit.

Adventism has a very strange external relationship with what they refer to as the "Holy Spirit". It's entirely different than the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that we as Christians experience. As New Covenant Christians we no longer have to call God's "911" number and request that the Holy Spirit give us a "house call".

You can discover more about how this works by reading about it in the New Testament. Romans and Hebrews are the "owner's manuals" for your particular model of body that you will be most able to relate to.

Gilbert Jorgensen

Gilbert if you want to reach people you have to engage in discussing ideas and doctrines with them - simply talking "at them" doesn't work.

It is clear from your statement above that you have some pretty faulty views of Adventists.

We probably need to talk at some point.

It sounds like you may also have fallen into the error of OSAS. Again - we need to talk.

Every SDA that I know was born-again WHEN they were justified - WHEN they came to Christ. Hint - this is something that happens by the Holy Spirit working on the heart according to Romans 2.

However - we are not Calvinists and neither are quite a number of Baptists.

You can not simply argue for Calvinist doctrine without actually supporting it from scripture when the group you are talking to is in fact Arminian.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[sentipente]

It sounds like you may also have fallen into the error of OSAS. Again - we need to talk.

What is the error that you find in OSAS?

 

[BobRyan]

What is the error that you find in OSAS?

Well for starters -

in the 4Pt Calvinist example of it -- it denies the Rom 2:7 doctrine on the perseverance of the saints.

in the 5pt Calvinist example of it - it denies assurance of salvation.

In both cases - it denies the Matt 18 teaching on "forgiveness revoked"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Man-ofGod]

A Christian was talking with an Atheist one day. The Atheist was making fun of the Bible the Christian had. The Christian asked the Atheist, "Don't you believe that we go somewhere when we die?" The Atheist replied, "No. We just cease to exist. We just go out like a light bulb and cease to exist."

According to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, when a person dies, they just cease to exist. They just go out like a light bulb, and cease to exist. Their breath leaves them and that's it. Poof! They're gone. Nothing but dust. No soul. No spirit. Nothing but dust.

Of course that creates a real problem trying to make it to a resurrection, and so more creative theological surgery is required.

In the book, "Seventh-day Adventists Believe", page 352, it says

"Death Is a Sleep. Death is not complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits the resurrection."
​

That statement doesn't even make any sense. What is "incomplete annihilation"?

To say, "the person awaits the resurrection" is equally disingenuous. What "person"? What, actually is awaiting the resurrection?

Awaiting implies anticipation. Anticipation is a function of consciousness requiring a conscious existence. Both are impossible during death according to SDA doctrine. No one and no thing dead "awaits" the resurrection.

According to SDA doctrine, how does a dead person exist? And if they don't exist, then the resurrection can have nothing to do with any person who has lived and died, but is the creation of another being altogether.

Furthermore there can be no such thing as "eternal life" for all persons who die. No other persons created in the image of the formerly living, even the exact same image, can bring them back.

Ellen White, in Great Controversy, page 588, also states that "immortality of the soul" is one of the "two great errors ... Satan will bring the people under his deceptions."

How then can Seventh-day Adventism even have a resurrection?

Gilbert Jorgensen

I am sure you mean well, but your perception of Adventist is flawed. All of your statements are not biblical. The fact that all humas go straight to the after life after dying is a man made teaching. The Bible confirms this over and over again.

Matthew 15:9

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

 

[BobRyan]

Another point to consider is that Gilbert doesn't appear to be reading these threads -- think these are just drive-by's

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Man-ofGod]

Another point to consider is that Gilbert doesn't appear to be reading these threads -- think these are just drive-by's

in Christ,

Bob

True, but other people might. But I guess we can't get them all.

 

[sentipente]

Well for starters -

in the 4Pt Calvinist example of it -- it denies the Rom 2:7 doctrine on the perseverance of the saints.

in the 5pt Calvinist example of it - it denies assurance of salvation.

In both cases - it denies the Matt 18 teaching on "forgiveness revoked"

in Christ,

Bob

Do not confuse the Calvinist example with the reality. Second, how can any view of OSAS deny the assurance of salvation?

 

[BobRyan]

Do not confuse the Calvinist example with the reality. Second, how can any view of OSAS deny the assurance of salvation?

3 and 5 point Calvinists accept some form of the Bible doctrine on "Perseverance of the saints" - but since they also argue that OSAS "must be true" they end up believing that 'you are saved today UNLESS you fail to persevere 10 years from today -- in which case the assurance you think you have today - is retro-deleted".

The result is that you can not KNOW you are really saved today until you SEE that you persevere ten years from today.

4 Point Calvinists get out of the problem by simply denying the Bible doctrine on the Perseverance of the Saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe67]

Let us enter into his rest and speak the words he gives us.

Everyone must give the answer of the tongue from the Lord.

We can say nothing against the truth, but for it.

He turns our unrighteousness to his glory.

Let us speak as the oracles of God.

Joe

 

[sentipente]

Let us enter into his rest and speak the words he gives us.

Everyone must give the answer of the tongue from the Lord.

We can say nothing against the truth, but for it.

He turns our unrighteousness to his glory.

Let us speak as the oracles of God.

Joe

Godtalk does not add to the discussion.

 

[radlad72]

Gilbert, your posts are full of sophistry. You are deliberately misunderstanding words and writing about them as if you are the only one who understands them correctly. You are not completely annihilated until the second death (if God deems you unrighteous). The life force (ruach/pneuma) or breath that goes back to God when you die is replaced when you are raised from death at the second coming (once again, if God deems you fit for it). You have a lot to learn.

Just a question: Are you an ex-Adventist? It seems you have some kind of axe to grind against Adventists which is generall the domain of ex-Adventists or someone who may have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It seems you have some kind of axe to grind against Adventists which is generally the domain of ex-Adventists or someone who may have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists.

Two questions:

(1) Are former SDAs the only SDAs who have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?

(2) Do former SDAs leave the denomination solely because they have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?
​

BFA

 

[Kyran]

Two questions:

(1) Are former SDAs the only SDAs who have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?

(2) Do former SDAs leave the denomination solely because they have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?​

​

Of course not, there could be plenty of reasons why Gilbert has an axe to grind. A close friend of his may have been converted, and his just trying to anything he can to portray the denomination in a negative light.

 

[djconklin]

(1) Are former SDAs the only SDAs who have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?

Ever heard of the phrase "Gid isn't finished with me yet"?

(2) Do former SDAs leave the denomination solely because they have had a bad experience with certain people who call themselves Adventists?

Or, because they misunderstood basic Christianity and SDA beliefs.

OTOH, there was a former member who quit when he found out that he wasn't going to be asked to be the head elder. He wrote my folks a long letter defending himself. I noted that for a portion of the letter he suplied what he called "proof" for what he was saying. But, when he made a negative remark ab't EGW--poof, no "proof"--showed that to my folks and chucked the letter into the trash.