How important is it to be baptized by water?

[Denisa Tharsos]

Hmmm. Are there exceptions? Does this command include the water baptism of paraplegics, people suffering from aquagenic urticaria (allergy to water) or aguaphobia (fear of water) or mental illness, or people who are saved but live in the desert or the frozen arctic where there is not enough water to baptize them? If there is no one around to baptize you, can you baptize yourself? Can a pagan baptize you? Etc. Etc. This can get complicated (as works always is).

Hmmm, you have a point here...but there are always exceptions of the rules,no? So if we are not part of the exception, why shouldn't we make that thing?

 

[Qnts2]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Just look at this topic: water baptism. It demonstrates and fulfills our Covenant in which we are lowered into the water as death to self, and lifted from the water as living for Christ. What does that really mean? Dying to self and allowing Christ to live through us is our part of the Covenant. Jesus atoned for our sins paying the price we couldn't pay, but the price we pay is our lives. Anything short of that is rejected. Again, look at the rich young man. He was rejected. Think about it. Why was he rejected? He had faith. Isn't that all that's needed? Apparently not, as Jesus demonstrated. Our faith has to be matched by laying down our lives and being willing to obey the Lord in all things.

What if you have someone come to you and say he's a contract killer, but he put his faith in Jesus. When you tell him he needs to stop killing, he says he's not willing to stop killing. Even after you show him Scripture saying 'thou shall not commit murder', he says he won't stop. Is his faith real and backed by his actions (works/obedience) and yielded will and therefore able to save him? Or is his faith without works and thus unable to save him?

This should not be hard. The Holy Spirit is telling you this is true, but a lifetime of false teachings on God's grace and salvation are making your mind resist the truth.

The rich man had more faith in money. Faith in money is not saving faith. This was an issue of where ones faith is.

If a contract killer won't stop murdering, about all we can do is to pray, and share the gospel. With the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, either he is resisting, or the Holy Spirit is not indwelling to start with. What makes a believer do the works? That they are a new creation and have the indwelling Holy Spirit. These are both the result of salvation. One is not saved by works, but salvation results in works.

 

[jamadan]

Hmmm. Are there exceptions? Does this command include the water baptism of paraplegics, people suffering from aquagenic urticaria (allergy to water) or aguaphobia (fear of water) or mental illness, or people who are saved but live in the desert or the frozen arctic where there is not enough water to baptize them? If there is no one around to baptize you, can you baptize yourself? Can a pagan baptize you? Etc. Etc. This can get complicated (as works always is).

You're assuming full emersion is required. The term Greek term and original concept of baptism includes the idea of both immersion and effusion, as in a pouring out of water from a pitcher. In the early church, when there was no place to physically immerse someone in a body of water, they accepted the practice of pouring water over the person's forehead for baptism. They also developed the idea of "baptism by desire" to cover those that are incapable of being physically baptized due to the kinds of constraints you cite.

 

[JimB]

Hmmm, you have a point here...but there are always exceptions of the rules,no? So if we are not part of the exception, why shouldn't we make that thing?

But God has not spelled out the "exceptions" has he? So, what is excepted and what is not?

 

[jamadan]

The rich man had more faith in money. Faith in money is not saving faith. This was an issue of where ones faith is.

If a contract killer won't stop murdering, about all we can do is to pray, and share the gospel. With the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, either he is resisting, or the Holy Spirit is not indwelling to start with. What makes a believer do the works? That they are a new creation and have the indwelling Holy Spirit. These are both the result of salvation. One is not saved by works, but salvation results in works.

Okay, so back to your example. If someone says they are saved, knows the Lord commands water baptism, and yet refuses to obey, are they truly saved?

 

[JimB]

You're assuming full emersion is required. The term Greek term and original concept of baptism includes the idea of both immersion and effusion, as in a pouring out of water from a pitcher. In the early church, when there was no place to physically immerse someone in a body of water, they accepted the practice of pouring water over the person's forehead for baptism. They also developed the idea of "baptism by desire" to cover those that are incapable of being physically baptized due to the kinds of constraints you cite.

I think you have just opened a really stinking can of worms?

 

[jamadan]

But God has not spelled out the "exceptions" has he? So, what is excepted and what is not?

This is where the authority of the church to bind and loose come into play. Jesus gave the apostles the authority to make decisions about how to administer the New Covenant. For instance, the decision to make Sunday the day for the Eucharist and Christian worship instead of Saturday was made using that authority, and Jesus said such decisions will be honored in Heaven.

 

[jamadan]

I thinkl you have just opened a really stinking can of worms?

Yep - love to stir up the flesh, which usually seems to love black and white rules with no discretionary judgments involved.

 

[Qnts2]

Okay, so back to your example. If someone says they are saved, knows the Lord commands water baptism, and yet refuses to obey, are they truly saved?

So you think failing to be water baptised is the same as murder?

Overall, there are two groups of people. Saved saints and unsaved sinners. As believers, we treat these two groups differently.

The saved: if they sin, there is a scriptural method of handling this. Essentially, to go to them. And ultimately, to throw them out of the church and treat them as sinners.


1 Cor 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

So, does refusing water baptism fall into this list, immoral, covetous, idolator, reviler, drunkard or swindler? That is our list.

Or another list, but this list is the fruit of the Spirit, meaning it is the fruit produced by the Holy Spirit in a believers life. We bear, or hold up the fruit, but we don't produce the fruit. In my view, the fruit of the Spirit is something which develops over time for anyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, because the Spirit will produce this fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is actually a sign of maturity.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.



For the unsaved, we are not to judge them, for God will be their judge. We are to share the gospel with them and treat them well, although not as brothers in the Lord.

What are the deeds of the flesh?

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Does this mean a new believer, who has outbursts of anger (anger issues), is actually not saved? No. We are talking about a new believer or a carnal Christian. Being conformed to Messiah is a process. But, as a new believer, refusing water baptism is not in the list of the deeds of the flesh either.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

And there is the point. A new Christian, although filled with the Spirit, is likely carnal, and in need of the steady teaching of the Holy Spirit, to conform them to Messiah.

 

[Qnts2]

But God has not spelled out the "exceptions" has he? So, what is excepted and what is not?

Mercy and grace.

But, let's go back to a little more black and white legal system of Gods laws. The Mosaic covenant.

According to the Mosaic covenant, a person is restricted in what they can eat. If there is no permissable food available to eat, should the person refuse food which is forbidden in scripture and starve to death, or should they eat the 'unclean' food and live? What of the children, if there is no 'clean' food available, do you feed your child 'unclean' food, or let them starve to death because there is no clean food?

In the Mosaic law, there are certain conflicts, and the decision is based on the higher law.

 

[jamadan]

So you think failing to be water baptised is the same as murder?

Overall, there are two groups of people. Saved saints and unsaved sinners. As believers, we treat these two groups differently.

The saved: if they sin, there is a scriptural method of handling this. Essentially, to go to them. And ultimately, to throw them out of the church and treat them as sinners.


1 Cor 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

So, does refusing water baptism fall into this list, immoral, covetous, idolator, reviler, drunkard or swindler? That is our list.

Or another list, but this list is the fruit of the Spirit, meaning it is the fruit produced by the Holy Spirit in a believers life. We bear, or hold up the fruit, but we don't produce the fruit. In my view, the fruit of the Spirit is something which develops over time for anyone who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, because the Spirit will produce this fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is actually a sign of maturity.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.



For the unsaved, we are not to judge them, for God will be their judge. We are to share the gospel with them and treat them well, although not as brothers in the Lord.

What are the deeds of the flesh?

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Does this mean a new believer, who has outbursts of anger (anger issues), is actually not saved? No. We are talking about a new believer or a carnal Christian. Being conformed to Messiah is a process. But, as a new believer, refusing water baptism is not in the list of the deeds of the flesh either.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

And there is the point. A new Christian, although filled with the Spirit, is likely carnal, and in need of the steady teaching of the Holy Spirit, to conform them to Messiah.

Isn't sin disobeying God? And if someone refuses to be baptized, aren't they sinning? Jesus said, if you love me, obey my commands.

The point is, when someone believes and has faith, genuine faith, they should be willing to yield to Christ and obey. If someone can't obey the simply command to be baptized, then they have much deeper issues and sin. It speaks of where the person is spiritually. Just as Jesus tested the rich young man and determined he was not ready to enter the kingdom of heaven, so to are those who disobey with the command to be baptized.

 

[Qnts2]

Isn't sin disobeying God? And if someone refuses to be baptized, aren't they sinning? Jesus said, if you love me, obey my commands.

The point is, when someone believes and has faith, genuine faith, they should be willing to yield to Christ and obey. If someone can't obey the simply command to be baptized, then they have much deeper issues and sin. It speaks of where the person is spiritually. Just as Jesus tested the rich young man and determined he was not ready to enter the kingdom of heaven, so to are those who disobey with the command to be baptized.

Once again, obedience is a growth process. No one is instantly mature or 100% obedient.

Jesus commands that we are to love God. And to love our neighbors as ourselves. Ultimately, love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which we learn to bear. There are no commands greater then these two so if a person as a new believer, does not love God as commanded "The first of all the commandments is: Mark 12:29 ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." have they sinned? Well, yes, but the very basis of the New Covenant is that Jesus died for all of our sins. So, there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus the Messiah. The rule is grace and mercy. So, to be Christlike in the most fundamental way, is to offer grace and mercy.

Once again, the most black and white law is the Mosaic covenant. A baby boy is to be circumcised on the 8th day, but life is the higher law, so if a baby is too ill or weak, the 8th day circumcision can be postponed. It is more important that the baby live, rather then risking the life for a circumcision which can be postponed.

 

[jamadan]

Once again, obedience is a growth process. No one is instantly mature or 100% obedient.

Jesus commands that we are to love God. And to love our neighbors as ourselves. Ultimately, love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which we learn to bear. There are no commands greater then these two so if a person as a new believer, does not love God as commanded "The first of all the commandments is: Mark 12:29 ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." have they sinned? Well, yes, but the very basis of the New Covenant is that Jesus died for all of our sins. So, there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus the Messiah. The rule is grace and mercy. So, to be Christlike in the most fundamental way, is to offer grace and mercy.

Once again, the most black and white law is the Mosaic covenant. A baby boy is to be circumcised on the 8th day, but life is the higher law, so if a baby is too ill or weak, the 8th day circumcision can be postponed. It is more important that the baby live, rather then risking the life for a circumcision which can be postponed.

So you're saying Jesus was wrong in sending the rich young man away? You're not quite getting it.

 

[Qnts2]

So you're saying Jesus was wrong in sending the rich young man away? You're not quite getting it.

I never said that Jesus was wrong for sending the rich man away. That man chose his money over Jesus and salvation. I don't think you are getting what I am saying.

No person who has accepted Jesus is born again fully mature. But, Jesus died for all of our sins, so now, there is no condemnation. Our attitude towards other believers must be one of grace and mercy, allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work in others.

The scripture is specific about those who claim to be brothers and what actions cause us to send them away.

Does turning down water baptism mean a person is not saved? Of course not. No more then a person who does not love God with all their heart, with all their soul, with all their mind, and with all their strength prove someone is not saved, and this command is the number one command. In order of importance, loving God comes first. But being water baptised does not prove a love for God as many have done that and not been saved, but have done this out of tradition or perceived obligation.

 

[jamadan]

But baptism isn't about perfection, spiritual maturity, holiness, etc. It's a command that is the entry point into Christ. It does not involve anything other than a simple willingness to obey. Doesn't require any tough decisions or sacrifice. Just do it. Anyone not willing to yield to it, has far less faith and willingness to follow Christ than the rich young ruler who had to make a serious decision and sacrifice - did you have to sell everything you possess and give it to the poor in order to be saved?

 

[JimB]

I don’t think that refusing baptism is a sin as much as is what’s causing a person to refuse baptism. Whatever it is is not just affecting their decision but is probably affecting other areas of their life as well. IMO.

 

[lismore]

Psalm 116:

14 I will fulfill my vows to the Lord
in the presence of all his people.

 

[jamadan]

I don’t think that refusing baptism is a sin as much as is what’s causing a person to refuse baptism. Whatever it is is not just affecting their decision but is probably affecting other areas of their life as well. IMO.

Well, refusing ANY command of the Lord is sin; there's no other way to view that. But I agree with your assessment that refusing to be baptized is a sign of a more serious underlying issue, which is really my point in comparing it to the rich young ruler. If pride or whatever prevents someone from yielding their will to the Lord's through baptism, that position is preventing them from entering the Kingdom of Heaven in the same way dependence on wealth was preventing that rich young ruler - it represents a fundamental issue of who is Lord in your life. If Jesus is truly Lord, obeying through baptism isn't ever an issue or challenge. If you ask to enter a house and the owner of the house says you're welcome to enter and hands you a key, it's up to you to use the key to unlock the door and enter. Refusing to be baptized is like standing at the door with the key in hand and refusing to use it to unlock the door.

 

[greatdivide46]

I don’t think that refusing baptism is a sin as much as is what’s causing a person to refuse baptism. Whatever it is is not just affecting their decision but is probably affecting other areas of their life as well. IMO.

It's sad that people have become so inured to false doctrine that we now don't think that refusing baptism is a sin. I just wish people would open their minds when they read the Bible instead of relying on what their "teachers" tell them. Not that all teachers are wrong, but in my experience what the Bible says takes precedence over what I'm taught by any person.

 

[Qnts2]

But baptism isn't about perfection, spiritual maturity, holiness, etc. It's a command that is the entry point into Christ. It does not involve anything other than a simple willingness to obey. Doesn't require any tough decisions or sacrifice. Just do it. Anyone not willing to yield to it, has far less faith and willingness to follow Christ than the rich young ruler who had to make a serious decision and sacrifice - did you have to sell everything you possess and give it to the poor in order to be saved?

Baptism isn't about perfection, but it is also not the entry point into Christ. Salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus. That is the entry point. So, a refusal to be baptised is not a salvific issue. Nor is it listed anywhere as an indicator that a person is not saved. Nor is it something which is in the list for believers to reject that person as a member of the body.

As far as tough decisions, or sacrifice, there I would strongly disagree. It can very much require a huge sacrifice, including the loss of family and community, when a person comes to faith in Jesus from a family or community which is not Christian. Or from a family which is devoutly Roman Catholic. Baptism has different connotations to different people. Being declared dead by mother and/or father, is a sacrifice and a tough decision.

But, since so many question the need for Baptism, since it is not a salvific issue, there is more to it. And whatever that more is, is part of the training process for that individual. Again, a process of being conformed to Jesus.

In the Mosaic law, baptism was a command and a requirement to enter the assembly. Without the ritual baptism (mikvah) as commanded in the law, people were not allowed to enter the assembly. The New Covenant baptism does not make a person saved, so a saved person prior to Baptism is spiritually a member of the assembly/body of Messiah. In the Mosaic law, a person who has become ritually unclean, goes thru whatever it takes to become ritually clean (like the healing of an oozing sore becoming healed), and then goes to the baptism bath, prior to being allowed to enter the assembly. Baptism is only for a person already saved/clean.

So what would be the equivalent today? A person is saved, made clean by the blood and then becomes baptised, which is a symbol of what has occurred and is also a recognition by the assembly which baptises the person that this person is clean and a member of the body.