How important is it for a minister to have a seminary degree?

[Deidre32]

When I was a practicing Christian, I was part of the Catholic faith, and so never had lay people presiding over the service. (mass) Well, they could read and help with mass, but there was always a priest to preside over the mass, and present the Gospel message, and his homily/sermon.

I've been thinking of going to church again, have been experiencing feelings of missing my faith, and there is a non-denominational church in town that I may explore. I looked it up online tonight, and there were 'reviews' for it, one person commenting how the ministers are lay people with no seminary degrees.

How important is it do you think to attend a church where someone has a degree from a seminary? Weren't the Apostles...lay people?

Thought I'd ask your opinion on this. Thank you...

 

[oi_antz]

When I was a practicing Christian, I was part of the Catholic faith, and so never had lay people presiding over the service. (mass) Well, they could read and help with mass, but there was always a priest to preside over the mass, and present the Gospel message, and his homily/sermon.

I've been thinking of going to church again, have been experiencing feelings of missing my faith, and there is a non-denominational church in town that I may explore. I looked it up online tonight, and there were 'reviews' for it, one person commenting how the ministers are lay people with no seminary degrees.

How important is it do you think to attend a church where someone has a degree from a seminary? Weren't the Apostles...lay people?

Thought I'd ask your opinion on this. Thank you...

As with any profession, a curriculum ensures a broad, relevant base of knowledge. But, it doesn't necessarily result in a skilled graduate. Likewise, those who learn a skill apart from a curriculum can be more skilled, yet they probably have some gaps in their knowledge. Why does it matter though? For instance, a lot of lay-person preachers will only know their own beliefs, and will not have learned about alternative valid beliefs, so they might be inclined to mislead congregations into believing too that their belief is exclusively right, when actually it might be reasonably disputed. This might not cause any harm, but it might. Though to balance that, even those who are trained usually are confined to the doctrinal positions of the denomination they are serving. So I think that probably you should go along to all churches to listen to what God teaches you as the church acts in service to Him, but do not submit yourself to a church's declaration of truth, instead submit to Him (because He is The Truth) and allow Him to speak to you in church, and to support the church as they work for Him. Consider Matthew 7:20. Notice that education cannot necessarily produce this, and this is found abundantly in people who aren't formally educated in Christianity. Apply this test to the critic whose review you read too.

 

[paul1149]

I wouldn't let lack of a degree hold me back. The apostles started out as lay people, but they then had an intensive 3 year course in ministry! But it wasn't formalized training. It was on-the-job.

You can get error from people who aren't trained, but you can find faith and goodness and brilliant insights as well. Frankly, by far most of the sermons I watch are not from denominationally trained ministers, most of which I find boring. Then again, it was trained denominational people who committed, and people very high up who covered up and enabled, all the sex crimes we've heard so much about. Ultimately there's no safety but in the Lord Himself, and we have to exercise wisdom and seek Holy Spirit guidance in all our choices. There is much that can be gained by being among believers. May the Lord lead you to where you can grow in Him.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

When I was a practicing Christian, I was part of the Catholic faith, and so never had lay people presiding over the service. (mass) Well, they could read and help with mass, but there was always a priest to preside over the mass, and present the Gospel message, and his homily/sermon.

I've been thinking of going to church again, have been experiencing feelings of missing my faith, and there is a non-denominational church in town that I may explore. I looked it up online tonight, and there were 'reviews' for it, one person commenting how the ministers are lay people with no seminary degrees.

How important is it do you think to attend a church where someone has a degree from a seminary? Weren't the Apostles...lay people?

Thought I'd ask your opinion on this. Thank you...

Hi Deidre,

I concur with what oi_antz has already said in his post above, so I won't repeat that. But I will add briefly that while it is true that from a Jewish perspective, the original 12 disciples were just "lay people," it is also true that Jesus is reported to have taught in an authoritative fashion for that time, i.e. in a rabbinical kind of way. So, it is difficult to say that by the time Jesus was done with the original disciples, they were still mere laymen. And if we take into account that Jesus might actually have been the Son of God, what better place to learn than at the feet of the Master.

Additionally, we can see from the New Testament writings that Paul claims to be a highly educated individual, and he writes as someone who indeed has a more advanced thought level; he wasn't a layman at any point, and he is recognized as an apostle within the Christian tradition, even if he was a "late comer," so to speak.

So, while I don't think that God requires a person to have a seminary degree, if we take many of the epistemological indicators in the New Testament seriously, neither can we say that God values an uneducated mind...

Just some food for thought....

2PhiloVoid

 

[Deidre32]

As with any profession, a curriculum ensures a broad, relevant base of knowledge. But, it doesn't necessarily result in a skilled graduate. Likewise, those who learn a skill apart from a curriculum can be more skilled, yet they probably have some gaps in their knowledge. Why does it matter though?

Thank you for this reply! I think it 'matters' to me, maybe because I came from a Catholic background, and there is a lot of organization and structure to be had. Not that there wouldn't be in a non-denom church, but that is just what I'm used to. i'm thinking of looking into a Lutheran church, because I don't feel called necessarily back to the Catholic faith. I just feel a calling right now to Jesus, himself, but would like a place of worship to count on, if that makes sense.

For instance, a lot of lay-person preachers will only know their own beliefs, and will not have learned about alternative valid beliefs, so they might be inclined to mislead congregations into believing too that their belief is exclusively right, when actually it might be reasonably disputed. This might not cause any harm, but it might. Though to balance that, even those who are trained usually are confined to the doctrinal positions of the denomination they are serving. So I think that probably you should go along to all churches to listen to what God teaches you as the church acts in service to Him, but do not submit yourself to a church's declaration of truth, instead submit to Him (because He is The Truth) and allow Him to speak to you in church, and to support the church as they work for Him. Consider Matthew 7:20. Notice that education cannot necessarily produce this, and this is found abundantly in people who aren't formally educated in Christianity. Apply this test to the critic whose review you read too.

Excellent points. Just because someone went through seminary, doesn't mean they will be a good nurturer to their congregation. There are many fire and brimstone Catholic priests out there, who leave you feeling completely spiritually dry when you leave their services. I like your advice here...to visit all churches to see where the message resonates. This is somewhat new to me because I honestly haven't 'talked' to Jesus, or thought about him much since deconverting, which was 4 years ago, going on 5. It is exciting and scary at the same time...where are these feelings coming from, I ask myself.

 

[Deidre32]

I wouldn't let lack of a degree hold me back. The apostles started out as lay people, but they then had an intensive 3 year course in ministry! But it wasn't formalized training. It was on-the-job.

You can get error from people who aren't trained, but you can find faith and goodness and brilliant insights as well. Frankly, by far most of the sermons I watch are not from denominationally trained ministers, most of which I find boring. Then again, it was trained denominational people who committed, and people very high up who covered up and enabled, all the sex crimes we've heard so much about. Ultimately there's no safety but in the Lord Himself, and we have to exercise wisdom and seek Holy Spirit guidance in all our choices. There is much that can be gained by being among believers. May the Lord lead you to where you can grow in Him.

Good points you make, and that's just it. I'm looking for him to lead me to the right place. Or places. TY for your thoughts.

 

[Deidre32]

Hi Deidre,

I concur with what oi_antz has already said in his post above, so I won't repeat that. But I will add briefly that while it is true that from a Jewish perspective, the original 12 disciples were just "lay people," it is also true that Jesus is reported to have taught in an authoritative fashion for that time, i.e. in a rabbinical kind of way. So, it is difficult to say that by the time Jesus was done with the original disciples, they were still mere laymen. And if we take into account that Jesus might actually have been the Son of God, what better place to learn than at the feet of the Master.

Additionally, we can see from the New Testament writings that Paul claims to be a highly educated individual, and he writes as someone who indeed has a more advanced thought level; he wasn't a layman at any point, and he is recognized as an apostle within the Christian tradition, even if he was a "late comer," so to speak.

So, while I don't think that God requires a person to have a seminary degree, if we take many of the epistemological indicators in the New Testament seriously, neither can we say that God values an uneducated mind...

Just some food for thought....

2PhiloVoid

What's funny about Paul, is I don't really hold much of what he stated as truth. Maybe that is something to sort out on my own, but he seemed like someone interested in people paying attention to him, and not as much on Jesus. But, that's just my opinion. Perhaps it comes down to if someone takes their career/vocation seriously, they will wish to put some time into it, I'm just concerned of getting swept up in wrong teachings, and a 'feel good' atmosphere. Is that makes sense.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What's funny about Paul, is I don't really hold much of what he stated as truth. Maybe that is something to sort out on my own, but he seemed like someone interested in people paying attention to him, and not as much on Jesus. But, that's just my opinion. Perhaps it comes down to if someone takes their career/vocation seriously, they will wish to put some time into it, I'm just concerned of getting swept up in wrong teachings, and a 'feel good' atmosphere. Is that makes sense.

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Deidre. When I first encountered Christianity a few decades ago, I didn't feel comfortable with churches, or church people, who approach faith with what you've termed as a "feel good atmosphere." I'm rather skeptical of that kind of thing myself, even now, although, like you, neither am I looking for a "fire-and-brimstone atmosphere."

As far as Paul is concerned, I do understand the concerns which some scholars (or laypeople) express about him. However, from my experiences with his New Testaments texts, I really haven't had a problem with him, and I say this as one who has had quite a bit of academic deliberation behind him (although I'm not claiming to be "the" expert here on the subject.) If you are wanting to avoid a "feel good atmosphere," then Paul is one of the ones to pay attention to.

P.S. As I sat here ruminating over what I've just said above, it came to my mind that one of the major hurdles which people have with Paul is in his apparent 'sexism.' So, I thought I'd suggest a book written by Richard and Catherine Kroeger, (she being a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota) which deals with one of the more 'sexist' propositions of Paul in 1 Timothy 2. The title of the book is, I Suffer Not A Woman, from which I think you can glean the angle of the investigation; although the way in which the text is handled may not be the one you'd expect. I leave it to you to check out.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[oi_antz]

Thank you for this reply! I think it 'matters' to me, maybe because I came from a Catholic background, and there is a lot of organization and structure to be had. Not that there wouldn't be in a non-denom church, but that is just what I'm used to. i'm thinking of looking into a Lutheran church, because I don't feel called necessarily back to the Catholic faith. I just feel a calling right now to Jesus, himself, but would like a place of worship to count on, if that makes sense.

Excellent points. Just because someone went through seminary, doesn't mean they will be a good nurturer to their congregation. There are many fire and brimstone Catholic priests out there, who leave you feeling completely spiritually dry when you leave their services. I like your advice here...to visit all churches to see where the message resonates. This is somewhat new to me because I honestly haven't 'talked' to Jesus, or thought about him much since deconverting, which was 4 years ago, going on 5. It is exciting and scary at the same time...where are these feelings coming from, I ask myself.

Ok, good for you. I think my speech was confusing. I actually meant to say that regardless of which church you go to, listen to what God teaches you as the church acts in service to Him, but do not submit yourself to a church's declaration of truth. I said this because the truth is not owned by a church.

I didn't mean to say that you should go around all the different churches, although I would encourage you to do that. Probably you would enjoy that, and you would see something about the faith that you seem to have not seen before. Probably you will find a church too that you feel God's spirit is calling you to, rather than picking one intellectually and getting set set up for a disappointment.

 

[Deidre32]

Ok, good for you. I think my speech was confusing. I actually meant to say that regardless of which church you go to, listen to what God teaches you as the church acts in service to Him, but do not submit yourself to a church's declaration of truth. I said this because the truth is not owned by a church.

I didn't mean to say that you should go around all the different churches, although I would encourage you to do that. Probably you would enjoy that, and you would see something about the faith that you seem to have not seen before. Probably you will find a church too that you feel God's spirit is calling you to, rather than picking one intellectually and getting set set up for a disappointment.

haha No worries, you explained yourself just fine.

If this makes sense, I'll put it like this...I always believed I was devout, as a Christian, but Jesus was sort of 'out there' somewhere. Untouchable and unreachable. I would pray to him and ask for his guidance, but he was still so remote. I knew of him, but he was always 'out there' (points away) ...and now I feel he is 'in here.' (pointing to my heart)

I didn't experience that before.

 

[Deidre32]

Yes, that makes perfect sense, Deidre. When I first encountered Christianity a few decades ago, I didn't feel comfortable with churches, or church people, who approach faith with what you've termed as a "feel good atmosphere." I'm rather skeptical of that kind of thing myself, even now, although, like you, neither am I looking for a "fire-and-brimstone atmosphere."

As far as Paul is concerned, I do understand the concerns which some scholars (or laypeople) express about him. However, from my experiences with his New Testaments texts, I really haven't had a problem with him, and I say this as one who has had quite a bit of academic deliberation behind him (although I'm not claiming to be "the" expert here on the subject.) If you are wanting to avoid a "feel good atmosphere," then Paul is one of the ones to pay attention to.

P.S. As I sat here ruminating over what I've just said above, it came to my mind that one of the major hurdles which people have with Paul is in his apparent 'sexism.' So, I thought I'd suggest a book written by Richard and Catherine Kroeger, (she being a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota) which deals with one of the more 'sexist' propositions of Paul in 1 Timothy 2. The title of the book is, I Suffer Not A Woman, from which I think you can glean the angle of the investigation; although the way in which the text is handled may not be the one you'd expect. I leave it to you to check out.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

This is very insightful, thank you.
I used to be a feminist, and struggled with Paul's words because of that. Maybe the trouble was with me, and not Paul at all. But, my issue with him now is that he strikes me as just too 'look at me.' He would have loved face book. lol

 

[David Hunter]

It doesn't matter to me if someone went to a seminary school or not. I'd rather someone preach to me about their trials and how God helped them through it than someone who went to school without firsthand experience.

Heck, look at Joel Osteen. I know some people like him and others don't, but he's helped millions of people and he doesn't have a seminary degree, or any degree for that matter. He was just an AV geek (just throwing in some humor here, haha) and then started preaching after his dad past away (well, he did his first sermon 6 days before).

 

[Deidre32]

It doesn't matter to me if someone went to a seminary school or not. I'd rather someone preach to me about their trials and how God helped them through it than someone who went to school without firsthand experience.

Heck, look at Joel Osteen. I know some people like him and others don't, but he's helped millions of people and he doesn't have a seminary degree, or any degree for that matter. He was just an AV geek (just throwing in some humor here, haha) and then started preaching after his dad past away (well, he did his first sermon 6 days before).

I'm careful about mega churches like Osteen's though. I've read that he owns mansions, etc. It's important for me, that the pastor not be using tithes to live lavishly. I mean, where else would he get the money to fund his lifestyle? (he sells books, too, etc)

Far cry from Jesus telling his Apostles to go to villages with just the clothes on their backs, no money in their hands, etc...and let the villages take them in...to how some of these evangelists live. Jesus himself was pretty humble, and lived a poor lifestyle. Not that we need to not own a car and live like he did, but definitely shouldn't be 'getting rich' off of the word of God. Something about that troubles me. But, other than that, I know what you are saying. lol

If I could find a non-denom church like the one where Francis Chan is the pastor, that'd be really great. Might look into Lutheran churches though, as I've been to those services in the past, and came away feeling positive.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is very insightful, thank you.
I used to be a feminist, and struggled with Paul's words because of that. Maybe the trouble was with me, and not Paul at all. But, my issue with him now is that he strikes me as just too 'look at me.' He would have loved face book. lol

I appreciate your sense of humor. I suppose Paul would have had a blast on FB, with all of it's exposure potential...

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[Deidre32]

I appreciate your sense of humor. I suppose Paul would have had a blast on FB, with all of it's exposure potential...

Peace
2PhiloVoid

haha yes. I wonder if he'd post endless selfies of himself...

jk!

 

[Deidre32]

It just dawned on me that the congregation could be made up of all cats and I'm the only human...it's the pastor that drives me. The priest/head pastor at my last Catholic church, is pretty awesome. Humble, funny, smart. Just felt like he was a real man, not over expectational. Not judging, but definitely loves God. That's what tends to keep me interested in a particular parish or church...the Pastor.

 

[David Hunter]

I'm careful about mega churches like Osteen's though. I've read that he owns mansions, etc. It's important for me, that the pastor not be using tithes to live lavishly. I mean, where else would he get the money to fund his lifestyle? (he sells books, too, etc)

Far cry from Jesus telling his Apostles to go to villages with just the clothes on their backs, no money in their hands, etc...and let the villages take them in...to how some of these evangelists live. Jesus himself was pretty humble, and lived a poor lifestyle. Not that we need to not own a car and live like he did, but definitely shouldn't be 'getting rich' off of the word of God. Something about that troubles me. But, other than that, I know what you are saying. lol

If I could find a non-denom church like the one where Francis Chan is the pastor, that'd be really great. Might look into Lutheran churches though, as I've been to those services in the past, and came away feeling positive.

Ha! Yeah, he does live a pretty lavish lifestyle. I guess it's how you use the money God gives you. Though, I don't know if Joel uses his Mansion for himself and family, or if he uses his mansions for the greater good. I dunno.

I do know a very Godly man who has very expensive cars, nice house, and only carries $100 bills with him (which he just hands out and gives as tips). He preaches the Word of God at his business and has changed many people's lives (including mine). So, I guess it really is how the money is used... to live selfishly or to do God's work.

Paul does say in 1 Corinthians 9:18, "What then is my reward? Just this: That in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel." I guess I'd question if selling books, audio, programs, etc. is preaching. I don't know the answer.

I've never heard of Francis Chan, so I just looked him up. Wow! Donates 90% of his income and didn't take any income form his Church. That is pretty amazing! Thanks for bringing him to my attention!!!

 

[David Hunter]

I'm really liking Francis Chan, Deidre!!! http://crazylove.org/sermon/334

 

[Willie T]

One thing you are NOT likely to ever find in a seminary trained person is the ability to truly think much beyond the confining accepted beliefs that their school leaned toward. Most any Religious institution has a rather limited way they have decided certain Scriptures or concepts are to be taken, and that is almost always ingrained into their professors.... who then teach others to believe the same way... who then teach their followers that there is no other thought to even be entertained. Thus "The Traditions of Men" are formed, grow, and are perpetuated and elevated to the status of divinely decreed truths.

From that point on, adherents of a particular "way" are no longer really studying God's word, but rather, they are being taught "how to do worship as we 'have always' done it."

 

[Deidre32]

I'm really liking Francis Chan, Deidre!!! http://crazylove.org/sermon/334

I'm so glad! Yes he is pretty awesome. Walks the walk.