• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How I lost my Faith; through study of Early Christian History...

Status
Not open for further replies.

jckstraw72

Doin' that whole Orthodox thing
Dec 9, 2005
10,160
1,145
41
South Canaan, PA
Visit site
✟79,442.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
Faith: belief without evidence

your understanding of faith isn't correct. God reveals Himself to people, and then people must decide to either love and trust God or to turn from Him -- this is the faith part. you can know without any doubt that God is real, but you must still place your faith in Him. just like someone might say "i have faith in my mom to get the job done" -- well heck, you know you're mom is real, but you're trusting her.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
30,993
9,979
NW England
✟1,295,624.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Faith: belief without evidence

If you are married, did you have evidence before you tied the knot that your wife would always love you and remain faithful to you, no matter what difficult circumstances came your way? Suppose you married and she went away for 6 months. When she came back you asked her if she'd been out with anyone else and she said 'no, of course not." If you then said "I don't believe you, prove it to me", don't you think she'd be hurt that you didn't love her enough to take her word, based on what you knew about her?
Did you have evidence that your job would work out how you wanted, that you'd be able to do it, that the firm wouldn't go broke after a year? Or that your children would always do as you said and would live their lives the way you wanted them to; not letting the family down? I doubt it. You could make informed decisons based on what you knew of your fiancee, of your love for her and her love for you; the research you'd done for a particular job or company; the information you'd read on childrearing, etc etc. But they'd come a point where you'd just have to go ahead and do something, because we can't have evidence for a future event.

This is exactly what many of us have done with Jesus. We read the Gospels, ask questions and are satisfied that he existed. We hear his claims and promises and may decide that we want to receive his forgiveness and eternal life. So we put our faith in him and a relationship begins. As we get to recognise his voice and receive and trust his love, we come to know him a bit better and have a bit more faith in him.

God is pleased with faith. When Thomas said to the other apostles "I won't believe unless I can touch his [Jesus'] scars for myself", Jesus graciously appeared to Thomas and let him do just that. He then said; "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Anyone can believe in something, or someone, when it is right in front of them. That doesn't require faith.
 
Upvote 0

Disippelen

Peaceful Crusader
Dec 22, 2005
880
47
41
Oslo, Norway
✟23,775.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi people. Interesting debate... but remember, only Jesus himself can reveal himself to human beings. Debates will never win anyone for the Christian faith.

Fortunately, Jesus has all power in heaven and on earth, so we should just pray that he reveals himself to he who searches for the truth of his existence.


Dis :)
 
Upvote 0

dcyates

Senior Member
May 28, 2005
1,513
88
59
Calgary, AB.
✟2,162.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
An yet none of the Gospel story details is contained in the epistles of Paul, although they date much earlier. He makes no mention of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Mary, Joseph or any of the other events. The way he describes Christ is 'Christ Jesus', not Jesus of Nazareth, an actual historical person who lived in recent times. Surely if Paul knew of all the details of the Gospel story of a human Jesus he would have provided them.
If you're speaking or writing to somebody about a mutual friend, do you always 'provide' details concerning that person's life of which both of you are already aware? Why would anybody do that? Given that there's good reason to believe that both Paul and his intended audience already shared knowledge concerning the pertinent details of who Jesus was, including the key events of Jesus' life, why on earth would he repeat these details in his letters to them?

Further, when referring to somebody with a title, it's not uncommon in other languages to refer to them using their name first followed by their title. For example, "Neron Kaiser" was how Emperor Nero designated by people in the ancient world. His given name first, and then the title he bore.
This frequent convention is also more recently reflected in the writings of master linguist, J.R.R. Tolkien. If you've seen the "Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" movie, you may recall the scene where Gandalf and company first go to seek the aid of the king of Rohan. The king's captain stops them at the door and declares, "We cannot allow you to appear before Theoden King so armed" (he's also referred to this way several other times throughout these films), upon which they then proceed to hand over their weapons before entering King Theoden's throne hall. Name first. Then title.
This custom is also seen throughout the Old Testament where we find God referred to as 'YHWH Elohim'. His name first, 'Yahweh', followed by his title, 'god'.
Paul is merely following this same practice when referring to 'IhsouV CristoV', Jesus Christ. Name first. Then title. Nothing more. Nothing less.

That said, the conclusions you've drawn from this are entirely unwarranted.
If you look at the choice of verbs in the Greek it also hints at a Cosmic Son of God not an historical figure who was tried and crucified by Pilate.
The choice of verbs? Do you know Koine Greek, OUAC? I've been studying NT Greek my entire adult life (and have been privileged enough to have done so at the feet of some of the most renowned NT scholars alive today). I know of no such "hints." In point of fact, I can't see how any such "hints" could even be possible.
 
Upvote 0

dcyates

Senior Member
May 28, 2005
1,513
88
59
Calgary, AB.
✟2,162.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Bad arguments; Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, outstripping Christianity, but does that make its claims true?
Islam is NOT the fastest growing religion in the world, Christianity is. The sources for this claim are inevitably either Muslims or non-religious people living in the West, which they themselves have labeled as being "post-Christian." (Or, there are some instances where such people are associated with the more liberal mainline denominations, which are bleeding members right-and-left, and so it appears to them that Christianity is slowly dying. Not true.)
The Christian Church is growing by leaps and bounds in such non-Western areas of the world such as sub-Saharan Africa, Central and South America, and Southeast Asia.
 
Upvote 0

SummaScriptura

Forever Newbie
May 30, 2007
6,986
1,051
Scam Francisco
Visit site
✟56,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled.

I'm sorry, but you've mistated your case. You've not lost your faith at all. Just switched it to a different object. Make no mistake, the above excerpt from your post is a statement of faith thru-and-thru.
 
Upvote 0

timmeh

Member
May 17, 2008
83
4
Berlin, Germany
✟15,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
your understanding of faith isn't correct. God reveals Himself to people, and then people must decide to either love and trust God or to turn from Him -- this is the faith part. you can know without any doubt that God is real, but you must still place your faith in Him. just like someone might say "i have faith in my mom to get the job done" -- well heck, you know you're mom is real, but you're trusting her.
No, incorrect. You define faith this way, but the OP has defined faith by the dictionary (read correct) definition
 
  • Like
Reactions: Iefan
Upvote 0

Iefan

non compos mentis
May 29, 2008
126
6
37
Great White North
✟22,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, incorrect. You define faith this way, but the OP has defined faith by the dictionary (read correct) definition

faith said:
c.1250, "duty of fulfilling one's trust," from O.Fr. feid, from L. fides "trust, belief," from root of fidere "to trust,"

Etymology is always more important than popular usage. Always. Otherwise you eventually stop speaking English and start speaking a new derivative language with less scholasticity. See "ebonics."
 
Upvote 0

JobM

Newbie
Jul 24, 2007
17
2
41
✟22,647.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
On some level, I can relate with the OP. I grew up raised with Man's traditional beliefs posed as Christianity. Recently I've started my own study of the scriptures. My interest was the true meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ and all that was relevant to it.

My careful study of the scripture for one thing has so far not supported the idea of torture of many people in a fiery hell for an endless duration. (Putting into consideration the original meaning of hell and the context it is always used in.) Now I'm reading articles that say that everlasting is a bad translation of the original Hebrew/Greek word. A better translation would be Age-abiding. The Greek word translated as punishment in English, meant correction. Which seems to suggest that the punishment for being disobedient to the gospel is not of endless duration.

This new finding hasn't destroyed my faith, but in fact has strengthened it. I understand that I am going to have to study the original languages for myself. Until then I draw no conclusion
 
  • Like
Reactions: Iefan
Upvote 0

Iefan

non compos mentis
May 29, 2008
126
6
37
Great White North
✟22,787.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Language evolves, this is why we speak modern English, and not the Middle English where he takes his definition. A definition that is not found in the modern dictionary.

Yes it is.

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
You would be hard pressed to find a word that is not directly related to it's etymology, and the original known meaning. Evolution is selective, it doesn't simply refer to change.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

vekarppe

Regular Member
Jun 18, 2007
528
15
Seinäjoki
✟23,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Faith: belief without evidence

You're kind of right. Oxford's dictionary defines faith as "complete trust or confidence; firm belief, esp. without logical proof." But doesn't we all have such beliefs? We believe, for example, that the human reason is reliable. It is assumption.
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟18,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're kind of right. Oxford's dictionary defines faith as "complete trust or confidence; firm belief, esp. without logical proof." But doesn't we all have such beliefs? We believe, for example, that the human reason is reliable. It is assumption.

Yes. If one looks back at the last 100-200 years of history we can see what the age of reason has produced. There are good things, but there are definitely bad as well. Naturalists do make the mind (and reason) center stage. However Existentialists and Postmodernists have offered some very incisive and valid critiques. Which is why - despite the educational systems being based on naturalist assumptions - we are now living in a postmodern world.


LDG
 
Upvote 0

vekarppe

Regular Member
Jun 18, 2007
528
15
Seinäjoki
✟23,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not only we trust in our reason, but senses and memory also. In the word of Denis Alexander, "many scientists do not realise that they have to make a whole range of philosophical assumptions, assumptions not provable by science itself, before the scientific enterprise can get started. For example, you need faith that the universe is comprehensible, that it's coherent, that we have the potential to understand it." So it's necessary to do a bunch of blind assumption in order to examine this universe or live in it.
 
Upvote 0

vekarppe

Regular Member
Jun 18, 2007
528
15
Seinäjoki
✟23,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later.

So only genuine scholarship is naturalistic one.
rolleyes.gif
Nice. :thumbsup:

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT.

One messianic pretender among the others, ending his life pitely at the cross... who cares?

All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

Can you prove that all the pagan and Jewish witness about Jesus are tampered with? All!

After several years of further study I lost my faith.

What a sad story. Really.:cry:
 
Upvote 0

vekarppe

Regular Member
Jun 18, 2007
528
15
Seinäjoki
✟23,250.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But it did not take long to discover the spurious nature of such apologetical special pleading. There was ample and early pre-Christian evidence for the dying and rising gods. The parallels were very close.

I challenge you to prove this statement. Ample evideces should make it very easy. However, some vague similarities isn't enough. You must be able to show:

1. That the similarities between Jesus, as portrayed in the NT, and the other relevant Savior-gods are very numerous, very 'striking', non-superficial, complex, within similar conceptual or narrative structures, detailed, have the same underlying ideas, be difficult to account for apart from borrowing, and be 'core' or 'central' to the story/image/motif enough to suspect borrowing.

2. That we can come up with a historically plausible explanation of how the borrowing occurred.
 
Upvote 0

GenemZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
22,169
1,377
75
Atlanta
✟109,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hail to All,

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...it is true; in some ways ignorance IS bliss...

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later. Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...:thumbsup:




The truth is?.... you never found Christ.

You were influenced by Christianity, but never found Christ.

I did not become a believer because I verified first all the things you think you have found. I found Christ without knowing who/what it was that had taken over my soul.

I was brought up a Jew. It was forbidden for us to believe in Jesus Christ. So, I had no teaching on regeneration. I had no idea of any transformation power to salvation.

When in college during the sixties, someone handed me a tract. He did not tell me a thing. He did not preach. he did not tell me anything about what happens when one believes. Just, "here."

I read the tract. At that point of my life I had no doubt I was a sinner.

While reading the tract I decided that not eating pork was going to save me (keeping the Jewish law) from the mistakes I had made. So? I said the little prayer found on the tract. Threw it in the garbage just before entering my next class.

Within a short, maybe a few weeks, I was was having a series of dreams and visions. I did not know what hit me. I was seeing future events before they came to pass. My life was flashed before my eyes.

I did not know what it all meant. How could I? I thought I had mysteriously become psychic and was now in contact with a mind much superior to my own.

I made no connection with having said the prayer for salvation. That was to come years later. When I finally came to the realization that I was saved. I prayed a prayer. I prayed because I knew what I was seeing was what I was shown in a dream ten years earlier. I prayed asking if I had ever cried out at some time in the past and did not know it....

That's when my a sight in my mind was switched to a scene I had totally forgotten about. One I gave no thought for. That of walking down the main lobby on campus and walking up to the table where the young man was setting out tracts.

So? I would have to say you never met Christ. Not yet, anyway.

For all the reasons you gave for your so called rejection? Has no impact on my soul. All it says to me is that you had been influenced by a culture that baptized you into a "christianized" way of life as you were growing up, but never having the life of becoming a believer.

Happens all the time. I grew up thinking I was a Jew. Like you thought you were a Christian. (Liberal Christian is an oxymoron)

A real Jew is one who knows his Lord because he has been made spiritually alive by the new birth. A real Christian is the same as a real Jew today. For there is neither Jew nor Gentile when we are to be found in Christ.

No amount of anti-Bible propganda like yours will effect the true Christian. Its designed to make the unbeliever feel comfortable with his desire to reject the truth. That's all.

A real Christian has a bond in the Spirit with God that you are oblivious to. And, God does save all. That means everyone from genius class to stupid. We are saved by grace, not works. So, just because someone may be stupid and not know how to debate your propaganda? It does not mean he does not see you as being the truly stupid one. For he knows Christ is real.

God saves anyone who will believe. Smart, or stupid. All who refuse to believe are stupid. Smart, or stupid.

Bell rings.. class over.
Grace and truth, Gene



.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrotherAtArms
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.
Hi there. I believe your fist mistake was going outside of the Bible to find evidence. How many times did you actually just sit down and read the Bible through, from Genesis to Reveation.

I read that book as if it just dropped down from heaven all at once and since Jesus was "not of the world", I beleive once must take themselves mentally out of this world to read it.

It all harmonizes quite nicely to me but then I never looked for contradictions or errors in it. Sorry you left the Faith and perhaps it is just as well to step back and maybe at a later time, you may once again come back when JESUS suddenly quickens you with His Spirit. Good luck to ya in your new Path :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 65:17 That behold! Creating Heavens New-ones and-Land New and-not they-shall-be-remembered the-former-ones and-not they-shall-come-up on heart.
18 But rather be elated and exult futures of future which I creating. That behold Me! creating the Y@ruwshalaim an exultation, and people of her an elation.

Revelation 21:1 And I perceived a-Heaven, New, and a-Land, New, for the first heaven and the first land pass-away......
6 And He said to me:" it-has-become.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrotherAtArms
Upvote 0

BrotherAtArms

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2005
1,689
39
✟24,586.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In reading the OP's first post, it appears to me that you were searching for God out of logic rather than faith to begin with. If you do it that way, most of the time you will disprove that God exists.
I do know of scientists who sought to prove God false through science, only to discover for themselves that He does exist.

God is above logic, He's outside of it, you won't find Him by trying to find out something about the authors of the 4 Gospels.
I could sit here and tell you that a lot of the events in history that 'there's no proof for' were covered up, but I have no evidence. Honestly, I have no evidence God exists or that Jesus is the Christ other than the fact that I know I feel His presence and He speaks to me (not audibly mind you).
It just surprises me that someone would try to search for more truth about Jesus outside of His own Word.

I'm sorry that through nice sounding doctrines outside the Bible based on logic and false perceptions of history you were able to leave God.
Yes life on earth goes on after you lose your faith... but not after death.

I don't know that you will, but you really need to search for God in the only way He can be found, and that's through prayer. You can't find Him in a text book, you can only read about Him until you receive your faith back, then the Bible, His love letter to you, will literally start speaking to you directly.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.