How I came to embrace Preterism.

P70 quotes:

No end to what?
the existance of Sin and Evil?

Are you an annhilationist or universalist?
Only through universalism or annhilationism do you come to an end game that includes the "end" of the existance of all sin and Evil.

Is that your position?

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neither

The rest of us must agree that the non-elect will never be free of the Devil's influence, no matter what location the devil resides.

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Do you have Scriptural basis for satan having power over the unregenerate from the LOF?

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Tawhano said:

So I was correct in assuming that you and Jack have the finally say in just what the scriptures say then?

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We each have the responsibility to determine what the scriptures say.

Why do you make this a personal attack? The accusation that Jesus was a false prophet comes often, using the very hermeneutical principals that futurists use. C. S. Lewis is one of the bolder of the bunch and actually comes out and says that it is embarassing because Jesus told them (the disciples and apostles) to expect Him to come back while they were alive, so they were mislead by Jesus.

It is not even a claim that the preterists started. We are just leveraging it because it is important.

daneel said:

Then a correct understanding of the parable of the fig tree would be needed.

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If you can show me the correct understanding of Lukes account of that parable, and explain what Jesus meant when he said "all the trees", please do so.

If, as the preterist would like me to believe, that all these things had come to pass, then I am obliged to look at what some of the early church fathers had to say. I would look specifically at Polycarp and Ignatius. They were students of John. John would have certainly taught them correctly as to what had happened. I might also look to Clement.

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Since the Bible iteslf records how the apostles own flocks were succeptable to, and indeed fell into mass apostasy, I'm curoius why you would think 2nd and 3rd generation pupils would be less apt to err?

daneel said:

Do you have Scriptural basis for satan having power over the unregenerate from the LOF?

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Do you have scriptural basis for the unregenerate to share in Christ's victory over Satan's influence, EVER?

Is there a Biblical way apart from Christ to free ones self from Satanic influence?

parousia70 said:

If you can show me the correct understanding of Lukes account of that parable, and explain what Jesus meant when he said "all the trees", please do so.



Since the Bible iteslf records how the apostles own flocks were succeptable to, and indeed fell into mass apostasy, I'm curoius why you would think 2nd and 3rd generation pupils would be less apt to err?

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It boils down to what is acceptable to show ones point, and disregard that which opposes it. Were Polycarp and Ignatius to write of "waiting for Jesus", I would imagine that it could be disregarded by the preterist. But if a 4th century father were to claim something that shows to validate the preterist point, then that would be accepted?


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parousia70 said:

Of course not Taw, don't be silly.
I offer my understanding up for correction and reproof all the time.

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It’s not your understanding I have a problem with; it is the logical conclusion from your remarks that your understanding and Jack’s are facts and anybody who disagrees is making Jesus out to be a liar.

parousia70 said:

On this thread alone I have repeatedly challenged those of you who disagree with my position (and the position spelled out in Jack's Article) to dissect it, step by step, and demonstrate which step(s) are off the mark and why.

So far , no takers.

You up to it?

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I’m still reading through the material. By no takers I am guessing that anything I offer will be put into the ‘useless’ information pile as you are doing with daneel’s rebuttal.

stauron said:

Why do you make this a personal attack? The accusation that Jesus was a false prophet comes often, using the very hermeneutical principals that futurists use.

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What personal attack? I take exception to remarks that indicate one group has the truth above any other group simply because they think their interpretations are superior to others and I am not afraid to say so.

parousia70 said:

Do you have scriptural basis for the unregenerate to share in Christ's victory over Satan's influence, EVER?

Is there a Biblical way apart from Christ to free ones self from Satanic influence?

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There is no way to free oneself apart from the sinful nature without Christ Jesus. Without Him, we can do nothing.

I have Scripture that shows that satan has no power to deceive the nations whilst in the pit for a 1000 years.

Where can we find this in history?


Do you have Scripture that shows satan has power from the LOF?

thanx

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1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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daneel said:

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

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Yep, then cometh the end of the OT covenental age. Why do you assume it means the end of anything else?

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

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He did reign for 40 years (from 30AD until 70AD) Thus ending the 1000 yr reign of the Davidic line of kings. And in 70AD He put ALL enemies under His feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

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So you don't believe Jesus has destroyed death? You believe Jesus STILL doesn't have power over death? The greek word rendered "destroyed" is KATARGEO and means "to be idle"...or "to make to cease" "be unfruitful" "make void". Didn't Jesus make death "void" when He ascended into the Holy of Holies in heaven and presented Himself as the sacrifice for sins? I hope your answer is yes.

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

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Right, God the Father isn't put under the feet of Jesus. That's understood.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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Right, as of right now....GOd is all in all. The fulness of the Godhead indwells all believers.

parousia70 said:

On this thread alone I have repeatedly challenged those of you who disagree with my position (and the position spelled out in Jack's Article) to dissect it, step by step, and demonstrate which step(s) are off the mark and why.

So far , no takers.

You up to it?

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If by Jack’s article you are referring to “Time keeps on Ticking” then I have finished reading it and can’t see where you think this is a sound defense of Preterism.

He bases his entire article on a rebuttal on the futurist view that 2 Peter 3 is the measuring stick for all prophecy in the Bible. I can’t find any futurist sites or material to verify that this is their views. I’m picking this is a strawman. If this is their view then all Jack has done was provide strong argument that you can’t apply that to all the prophecies in the Bible which does nothing to strengthen the Preterist views. Too many people think that a sound defense is to launch an offence on the opponent. This isn’t proof that Preterism is true. This is what I see jack is attempting in this article.

He goes to great lengths to show how prophecy is literal in the Old Testament and then tries to make a connection to the poetic version of prophecy in 2 Peter 3. If his argument that the reference to the details of the second coming is not literal then it can be applied to both preterism and futurism. I think his article is mostly a ruse with very little rebuttal provided.


Therefore, Peter recognized that what had happened in the upper room, was the beginning of the "last days" or the beginning of the "end of the age."

So? Where is his proof that this isn’t still the last days?

It should be pointed out that Peter instructed his first century audience that they should "watch unto prayer." Why? What was the reason for Peter’s admonition? Because "the end of all things [was] at hand." This was written to them, not us.

So? Do we discount what we read in the Bile because it wasn’t written to us? Is he saying nothing in the Bible pertains to us because it wasn’t written directly to us?

As we have seen, Peter and his generation, were already living in the last days. So, apparently, the mockers were even then present in their generation.

So? There are still mockers.

The mockers were a first century reality.

So now they aren’t a reality?

He was dealing with the destruction of "the world of the ungodly" in his generation.

And they were destroyed how? Take a good look around you; the world of the ungodly is alive and well.

I don’t know, perhaps not being a futurist of preterist prevents me from seeing the argument Jack was trying to put forth. I think he simply created a strawman to disprove the other’s views and then stretched a few scriptures to come up with his views. I was disappointed in what the article had to offer. Perhaps I’ll try reading it again later tonight.

daneel said:

It boils down to what is acceptable to show ones point, and disregard that which opposes it. Were Polycarp and Ignatius to write of "waiting for Jesus", I would imagine that it could be disregarded by the preterist. But if a 4th century father were to claim something that shows to validate the preterist point, then that would be accepted?


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Can you show me where Polycarp and Ignatius speak of waiting for Jesus? I would like to see it in context. If it's a clear statement regarding them looking forward to the second coming of Jesus as a future event it wouldn't be disregarded.....but I'm not going to let the writings of fallible men (who were not writing under inspiration of the Spirit) shake my belief in what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught regarding His return.

Our litmus test is NOT the writings of early church historians or fathers. It is the clear teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It wouldn't matter if Josephus never spoke about the fall of Jerusalem and the supernatural events that surrounded it.....I would STILL believe that Jesus came back within THAT generation.....because it's what He said. Let God be true and every man a liar. But it is edifying that Josephus DOES recount the prophecies being fulfilled. It is just MORE proof.

What I would like to know is....If Jesus HAD NOT come back when Polycarp and Ignatius began writing their letters to the churches, then why didn't they carry on in the same fashion as the apostles and encourage their readers to watch, pray for, and expect the second coming soon? Why didn't they even mention it? Wouldn't it STILL have been an important topic if Jesus hadn't returned yet?

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daneel said:

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

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An end, yes but an end to what?

Hmmm....

daneel said:

neither



Do you have Scriptural basis for satan having power over the unregenerate from the LOF?

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This scripture is during the time of the new heaven and earth when believers are in the heavenly city. Satan was cast into the lake of fire before this event.

Revelation 22:15
But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

EP quotes:

Can you show me where Polycarp and Ignatius speak of waiting for Jesus? I would like to see it in context. If it's a clear statement regarding them looking forward to the second coming of Jesus as a future event it wouldn't be disregarded.....but I'm not going to let the writings of fallible men (who were not writing under inspiration of the Spirit) shake my belief in what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught regarding His return.

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Have you read Polycarp? I know of only one letter he wrote.

Is there something he wrote that opposes Scripture in the bible? I've not found any. I find his writing to be inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Paul got up in the morning and put his pants on one leg at a time, just like you and I. We're all fallible, but cannot be under the power of the Holy Spirit, when talking or writing of Christ Jesus.

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Hidden Manna said:

Revelation 22:15
But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

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You do realize that these are now in the LOF, along with satan and his co-horts, yes?

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daneel said:

You do realize that these are now in the LOF, along with satan and his co-horts, yes?

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I have considered that and have also wandered if that applies to those who preach or teach a futuristic view not iqnorantly but in rebellion after hearing the truth and fight against it.

I believe the believer whether an futuristist never hearing the truth or a one who has, live spiritually in the new Jerusalem.

But I have wandered if those who are outside the gates are partaking in the lake of fire and are spiritually in outer darkness even as we speak.

When reading all the text about outer darkness in scripture the thing that comes to my mind is that all who were cast into outer darkness wanted to be with the Lord in the parrables. They were not like the heathen or unbelievers as such, but they all eagerly wanted to be with Jesus in His Kingdom.

Now if so, the next thing to consider is how can those people be saved from abiding in God's wrath or is it even possible.

Two texts of scripture come to my mind first Rev.14:6 speaks of a everlasting gospel to be preached.

Second is Jude 1:15-23 and verse 23 speaks of pulling [them] out of the fire.





"Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, * 15 "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." * 16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling [words,] flattering people to gain advantage. * 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: * 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. * 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. * 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, * 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. * 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; * 23 but others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Now the way I see it is, that the "them" spoken of were those before the end of the OC age.

Scripture is there for us today for our learning and it is profitable for doctrine, correction, etc and is an example of how things operate in the spiritual realm and can be spiritual appied to all people in all generation unto the eones of time.

So my question to you is do you think you might be in the lake of fire because of lying about what Jesus said about His coming soon not being soon at all, or do you beieve that you are abiding in the truth with Jesus right now in His Kingdom in the new heaven and earth that He created right after destroying the old heaven and earth at the end of the age of the old covenant?

Hidden Manna said:

I have considered that and have also wandered if that applies to those who preach or teach a futuristic view not iqnorantly but in rebellion after hearing the truth and fight against it.

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So in your opinion preterism is a salvation issue; salvation has little to do with Christ but everything to do with subscribing to the correct theological thought?

Tawhano said:

So in your opinion preterism is a salvation issue; salvation has little to do with Christ but everything to do with subscribing to the correct theological thought?

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I don't believe that is what HM meant....at least going by other things he has said in the past. But I'm sure he will clarify when he comes on board today.

(for the record..I don't believe it is a salvation issue)

HM quotes:

I have considered that and have also wandered if that applies to those who preach or teach a futuristic view not iqnorantly but in rebellion after hearing the truth and fight against it.

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Those that are relegated to the LOF are clearly represented as to their identity in the bible. The short summary says "anybody who is not found in the Lambs book of Life."

I believe the believer whether an futuristist never hearing the truth or a one who has, live spiritually in the new Jerusalem.

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The kingdom of heaven is in my heart today. THe NJ is in the future.

But I have wandered if those who are outside the gates are partaking in the lake of fire and are spiritually in outer darkness even as we speak.

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I believe the White Throne judgement futuristic. Nobody is yet in the LOF.

When reading all the text about outer darkness in scripture the thing that comes to my mind is that all who were cast into outer darkness wanted to be with the Lord in the parrables. They were not like the heathen or unbelievers as such, but they all eagerly wanted to be with Jesus in His Kingdom.

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Feel free to quote some and we can discuss. I would question the "eagerness" part.

Now if so, the next thing to consider is how can those people be saved from abiding in God's wrath or is it even possible.

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If there is Scripture that points to redemtion from the LOF, please point it out. I consider the LOF the finality of judgement. The universalists have tried.

Two texts of scripture come to my mind first Rev.14:6 speaks of a everlasting gospel to be preached.

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The term "everlasting" has different meanings in the bible. For instance, "everlasting" has a different meaning in the context of God. God is everlasting to everlasting.

In the context of the "everlasting gospel" can it really be used in the same context of God?

Second is Jude 1:15-23 and verse 23 speaks of pulling [them] out of the fire.

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The word "fire" also has different meanings, depending on the context. There is a refiners fire, fiery wrath of God, the LOF, and I'm sure others.

So my question to you is do you think you might be in the lake of fire because of lying about what Jesus said about His coming soon not being soon at all, or do you beieve that you are abiding in the truth with Jesus right now in His Kingdom in the new heaven and earth that He created right after destroying the old heaven and earth at the end of the age of the old covenant?

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Nope, not at all. Why?

Because you and I and all the preterists, futurists, pre-trib, amillenialists, blah blah blah have at least one thing in common.

That would be, hopefully, being saved by Grace through faith, and not by works.

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EchoPneuma said:

(for the record..I don't believe it is a salvation issue)

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Neither do I, I’m quite comfortable in sharing heaven with Preterist.

I am concerned that some of the comments made on here and on the web make it sound like an ‘us and them’ situation. I am interested in this topic but I’m not interested in invoking indignation from somebody because I don’t see their point of view. I look on the other threads for that.