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How Have You resolved the Creationism vs Evolution Debate?

gluadys

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I don't accept the genus,family and order groupings,because they imply common descent and yet are not based upon known reproductive connections between species.

Actually they don't, since they are a remnant of the pre-Darwin Linnean taxonomy which was based solely on morphological traits. So, for example, two of the defining traits of a mammal are hair as a skin covering during at least part of its life and milk glands for nourishing the newborn. Since, I possess those traits, it is correct to define me as a mammal.

Darwin introduced the idea that shared morphology could be explained as an effect of common ancestry. So the categories work in an evolutionary context too, though not as well. As more emphasis has been placed on genetic clues to actual inheritance, and taxonomy has been becoming more cladistic, the old categories are not as important. Some strict cladists advocate doing away with them altogether as they give a false sense of hierarchy. The terrestrial vertebrates, for example, are all given class status, even though some are descendants of others--which ought to put them in a lesser ranking in the Linnean system.



You are human. That is your species,whether you are considered considered alone or as belonging to the rest of the human race.

Exactly, along with 6 billion+ other individual creatures. So the species is a collectivity. There is no species of 'gluadys' because 'gluadys' is not a collectivity or even potentially a collectivity.

Sure, if the human species dwindles in number until only one is left, that individual will still be human, but that is hardly relevant to the issue. That individual, qua individual, will still not be "species x" but simply the last remaining exemplar of what was once a population of similar individual creatures inter-related by procreation and inheritance.



We also use species names for individual creatures. If someone asks you what species your cat is,you will say it is a such and such.


Sure, and in doing so, I am naming the collection of individual creatures to which it is related and which it resembles because of that relatedness. If someone, seeing one of my cats, asked "who is that?" I would say "Makheer" or "Louis" or "Lacroix" and these are not species.


Scientists will give a new species name to a single newly discovered dinosaur skeleton. They don't wait until a group of identical skeletons are discovered. And they certainly cannot demonstrate reproductive connections between dead species.


Right, but they are certainly not assuming that the living dinosaur of which this is a remnant was the only creature of its kind. They give it a species name because the existence of one fossil implies the former existence of a group of individuals of the same species.


In short, none of these examples removes the idea that a species is, by definition, not an individual qua individual, but a category of individuals grouped together through reproductive affinities which assure a commonality of morphological character traits.

This does not mean that species evolve into existence through genetic changes in groups.


No, the definition of species doesn't imply the origin of species.

I am not certain what you mean by "genetic changes in groups". Genetic changes can only occur in individuals. But, because they are genetic, they can be inherited. Of course, it follows they can only be inherited by descendants of the individual in which they occurred. So, right away, in the next generation, there will be two groups within the species: a small one consisting of those who inherited the genetic change from one of their parents, and a larger group which did not.


If, at some point, these groups are separated from each other, the group with this change (and others which are also never passed on to the other group due to the separation) could become reproductively isolated from the other group and so become a new species.


I do. The separation of one group from another is not the same thing as the first existence of a new kind of creature.


You are partially right. Unless and until the separation involves reproductive isolation, it is not the same thing as the generation of a new species. If the barrier keeping the groups apart is geophysical the division is of one species into two groups--not the first appearance of a new species. However, the geophysical separation permits different traits to appear and spread in each group without affecting the other. And if members of the two groups are brought together again, they may be unwilling or unable to successfully mate with each other. This has been verified experimentally several times. And it appears to happen in nature as well, as in ring species or rapid radiations such as observed in chichlid fish.

So while separation of some sort is essential to speciation, depending on the nature of the barrier, it is not identical to speciation. What non-reproductive separation does is provide an incubator for the development of reproductive isolation. Speciation is the development of reproductive barriers between two groups that were originally one species.

Of course, sometimes it happens that the form of separation involves a barrier to reproduction right from the beginning. So then, separation and speciation occur concurrently.




The speciation of one group from another begins with the individual creation of a new kind of creature.

Possibly, but this creature still has to be of the same kind as its parents and siblings.


First you have to be certain that the historical narrative of evolution theory happened.

Actually, it is the reverse. What one needs to be certain of is that the process of evolution is taking place, that the mechanisms which permit a species to diversify and change form over time really do that.

If evolutionary change doesn't happen, there is no historical narrative possible, no matter how tempting it may be to invent one.

But since evolutionary change does happen, the historical narrative is an inevitable consequence. Of course, we often don't know the details of the narrative. That is a matter of ongoing research. But it is the process of evolution that tells us there is a historical narrative of evolution that is potentially traceable all the way back to the last universal common ancestor. The history doesn't prove evolution happened. Evolution proves the history happened.



God can create immediately as many creatures of a kind as he pleases.

Sure, as long as he is by-passing the normal modes of reproduction. But that is not the scenario you have been presenting till now. You have been uniting the reproductive process and God's creation of individuals as simultaneously an act of nature and an act of God.


If only one individual of a species lives,it is still the species. It does not lose its identity as a species.

Yes, but that one individual (a bacterium, for example) is still potentially part of the group that will be its descendants or the remnant of the group that was its ancestors. It is not a species qua individual.


A new kind of creature doesn't need to be able to reproduce to come into existence. And it may be reproductively compatible with the members of the group it came from.

If it is still reproductively compatible with the group it came from, then it is likely still the same species, or a close enough species to still hybridize from time to time. This is why speciation is gradual. The development of reproductive barriers doesn't happen all at once with one individual. The two groups separate (reproductively) over a period of several (sometimes hundreds) of generations.



When I say that species come into existence as individuals,I do not mean that only one individual of each species comes into existence. I mean that species begin with distinct creations.

But the distinct individual creation which is the ancestor of a new species is not yet a different species than the other individuals of its own generation. The differentiation of its descendants (or those of them that carry its unique species traits) from the descendants of its siblings and neighbours happens gradually as for one reason or another, they cease to mate (or even to be able to mate) with each other.




The beginning of the group is still individual creation. Groups do not necessarily come into existence together as a group.


Right. That's why it takes time for a new species to emerge from another. There is seldom a key moment where you can pinpoint when two sub-species become two species.




They have an ontological reality in the mind of God.

Ah, so we have a classic Platonic realist here. Of course, many in the church have taken that stand. And many, like myself, prefer Aristotelian nominalism (a la Thomas Aquinas). The realist/nominalist controversy over the nature of form was one of the most intense debates of the High Middle Ages. And I doubt it was ever resolved, though few would take the realist stand today.
 
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Anthony Puccetti

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Actually they don't, since they are a remnant of the pre-Darwin Linnean taxonomy which was based solely on morphological traits.

The nested hierarchy is used to support evolution theory and common descent theory. Evolutionists take it as a given that the nested hierarchy shows how species are related to each other through common ancestry.

So, for example, two of the defining traits of a mammal are hair as a skin covering during at least part of its life and milk glands for nourishing the newborn. Since, I possess those traits, it is correct to define me as a mammal.
That's alright,but the way that species are scientifically grouped determines how they they are thought to be related to other species. With traditional groupings such as animal,bird,fish,
people don't assume that all the species are related by ancestry. But with the modern scientific groupings,
people do assume relatedness,because science assumes it and does not recognize that species have permanent boundaries.

Darwin introduced the idea that shared morphology could be explained as an effect of common ancestry. So the categories work in an evolutionary context too, though not as well. As more emphasis has been placed on genetic clues to actual inheritance, and taxonomy has been becoming more cladistic, the old categories are not as important. Some strict cladists advocate doing away with them altogether as they give a false sense of hierarchy. The terrestrial vertebrates, for example, are all given class status, even though some are descendants of others--which ought to put them in a lesser ranking in the Linnean system.
Whatever the problems that cladists have with the nested hierarchy model,it is still used as an argument for evolution theory and common descent theory. Cladistics is not better,because it still makes presumptuous connections between species that cannot be known to be related by ancestry.

Exactly, along with 6 billion+ other individual creatures. So the species is a collectivity. There is no species of 'gluadys' because 'gluadys' is not a collectivity or even potentially a collectivity.
There is no species of your self because your self is not a primary form or kind in itself,it is secondary to being a human.

A species exists as an individual,whether or not it exists as a collectivity.

Sure, if the human species dwindles in number until only one is left, that individual will still be human, but that is hardly relevant to the issue. That individual, qua individual, will still not be "species x" but simply the last remaining exemplar of what was once a population of similar individual creatures inter-related by procreation and inheritance.
When only Adam existed,the human species (humankind) existed.

Sure, and in doing so, I am naming the collection of individual creatures to which it is related and which it resembles because of that relatedness. If someone, seeing one of my cats, asked "who is that?" I would say "Makheer" or "Louis" or "Lacroix" and these are not species.
Those names do not signify species anyway.

Right, but they are certainly not assuming that the living dinosaur of which this is a remnant was the only creature of its kind. They give it a species name because the existence of one fossil implies the former existence of a group of individuals of the same species.
It is an assumption that the dinosaur was a separate species from any that have been discovered. Scientists can only judge by the skeleton,not by other physical characteristics or by reproductive incompatibility with other species of dinosaur. The point is that scientists do not determine what is a species according to the biological definition of species,but according to physical characteristics.

In short, none of these examples removes the idea that a species is, by definition, not an individual qua individual, but a category of individuals grouped together through reproductive affinities which assure a commonality of morphological character traits.
The original meaning of species is simply kind or form. It applies to both individual creatures and to groups.
 
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Keachian

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The nested hierarchy is used to support evolution theory and common descent theory. Evolutionists take it as a given that the nested hierarchy shows how species are related to each other through common ancestry.

Linnaean taxonomy is quite different to cladistics, rather than having the rigid family, genus, species. We have clades, within each clade is more clades. Sure this doesn't mean therefore common ancestry, however and this is quite a big however, we have built the same tree of life from evidence found in every subdiscipline of biology.
 
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Greg1234

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Sure, as long as he is by-passing the normal modes of reproduction. But that is not the scenario you have been presenting till now. You have been uniting the reproductive process and God's creation of individuals as simultaneously an act of nature and an act of God.

So what if we put a human, goat and walrus in a lab and monitor for 3 weeks. After said time, we find that they have changes in their bodies- b-cells changed, bones cells changed, and skin cells changed. This, according to lab technicians, reveals that a human kept changing and eventually turned into the walrus. A walrus somewhere kept changing and eventually you got a goat. This of course discounts the notion of special creation via birth. Can we call the human-walrus-goat somatic transition an act of God? If not, then why discount birth from the spirit, and not map the continual changing of germ cells with somatic variances?
 
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Keachian

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So what if we put a human, goat and walrus in a lab and monitor for 3 weeks. After said time, we find that they have changes in their bodies- b-cells changed, bones cells changed, and skin cells changed. This, according to lab technicians, reveals that a human kept changing and eventually turned into the walrus. A walrus somewhere kept changing and eventually you got a goat. This of course discounts the notion of special creation via birth. Can we call the human-walrus-goat somatic transition an act of God? If not, then why discount birth from the spirit, and not map the continual changing of germ cells with somatic variances?

NO

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Jg6L16Mzs&feature=g-vrec&context=G2d25c47RVAAAAAAAABQ
 
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spartakis

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I would like to read discussions of how other Christians have thought about this debate. Serious and theological discussions only, please.

Did we come from nothing, random chance or was we created? I know what I believe what about you? Evolutionist state we evolved in this order. Chemical Pools of Pre-biotic Soup, Single Celled Organisms, Invertebrate Sea Life, Vertebrate Sea Life, Amphibians, Reptiles, Birds, Mammals, and Man. The fact is a signle cell organism needs 3 major compnents, spiraled functional DNA, proteins, and a cell membrane, these do not form spontaneously, or natually.

Where did spontaneous generation come from. Unintelligent scientist. Believing in their imagination. 1st. proof A mouse came from a jar of wheat and dirty underwear. I guess Dr. Von Helmont didn't see the mouse get in the jar. 2 nd. Maggots on rotted meat. Was proved wrong in 1668 by Dr. Francesco Redi, Italian Physician/scientist. 3 rd. Scum From clear pond water. Scientist mocked anyone who dared to question this. Louis Pasteur proved spontaneous generation wrong in 1859. Darwin then came up with evolution claiming things like horses necks stretching to be a giraffe.

Did you know evolutionist teach the whale came from a 4 legged animal like a hyena?

They continue to change the animal, but they believe the whale came from a deer/hyena type creature that would jump in rivers to flee predators lol.

Lets take a look at what would have to happen comparing to a hyena.

Well first the hyena would have to learn how to swim, and holds it's breath. Then it would have to grow a dorsal fin, bony tail would have to evolve into a cartilaginous fluke, the teeth would have to change into a very big baleen filter, nostrils would have to move from the nose to the head disconnecting from the mouth passage to form a blow hole on top of the whales head, the front legs would have to change into fins, the body of the hyena would have to increase 2400x its size, its ears would have to disappear and learn to compensate for high pressure diving down to 1,640 ft deep, and the back legs would have to disappear. The odds of this happening are 1/364 with 1,625 zero's. This was calculated by DNA changing and etc... Look at the differences of these animals and tell me what you think.

I am not making this up, this is what they believe. This is what they are now teaching in public schools as facts. Why? because they want to come up with anything they can to say there is not a God that will judge them for their sins. Look it up. I believe they have recently changed the animal to a 4 legged deer like creature from India.

Evolutionist try and prove evolution with similarities between animals. They will do this with fossils and living animals. Why does this not hold up? Well the first example should be the panda and the red panda. Evolutionist claimed these animals were related because of the similarities. They both have an extra thumb on their hands, both have similar v shaped jaws, similar teeth, and similar skulls. The evolutionist were proven wrong when scientist took DNA from both of them. They found out the red panda was in the raccoon family and the giant panda in the bear family. Similarites did not work out well, even though these are how they try and use the fossil record, and live animals to prove evolution.

They claim a lizard like retile is a common ancestor to a whale, dinosaur, bird, and chimpanzee. Why? Because they all have one bone in their upper arm, two bones in the forearm, and multiple bones in the wrist. They disagree with each other over similarities of the hyrax. Some evolutionist claim it is related to the elephant and sea cow because of it's teeth. Others claim it is related to the rhino and horse because of it's ears. The real proof is in DNA. It proves that there are multiple animals that are unrelated and have similarities. Nowhere is there any type of DNA evidence of evolution. Is there any evidence for evolution? I think not.

What does the laws of science say? Laws of Thermodynamics are laws of science that are proven and can not be denied. They state that energy can not be created or destroyed only transferred, And that energy deteriorates during transfer by becoming unused energy that can not be changed back. So we see the universe could not create itself. Then we see things brake down over time. But evolution requires billions of years of constant violations of the second law. So evolutionist beliefs brake both laws.

A letter from Dr. Wernher Von Braun ( Father of our space program with NASA) to California State Board of Education.

Dear Mr. Grose: In response to your inquiry about my personal views concerning the “Case for DESIGN” as a viable scientific theory or the origin of the universe, life and man, I am pleased to make the following observations. For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design. We can see the will of the species to live and propagate. And we are humbled by the powerful forces at work on a galactic scale, and the purposeful orderliness of nature that endows a tiny and ungainly seed with the ability to develop into a beautiful flower. The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based.

While the admission of a design for the universe ultimately raises the question of a Designer (a subject outside of science), the scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life and man are based on design. To be forced to believe only one conclusion—that everything in the universe happened by chance—would violate the very objectivity of science itself.

Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolvedout of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?
 
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I would like to read discussions of how other Christians have thought about this debate. Serious and theological discussions only, please.

Evolution is Kabbalah, which is Ancient Babylonian Mystical Talmudism; and it's religion in the guise of "secular" science as part of the preface to ushering in the Eschaton Agenda. It became exponentially more prolific as the Copernican Revolution fed into the Darwinian Revolution, both paving the way for the Marxian Revolution and Freudian Revolution that has culminated in the Einsteinian and Saganian Revolutions.

This widespread delusion has permeated the Physical and Natural Sciences, the Social and Behavioral Sciences, and on into the Arts and Religion. It's the unifying theistic and atheistic One-World Religion for the Eschaton. Christians are embracing and integrating Theistic Evolution in droves.

Beware the Leaven of the (literal, actual, modern) Pharisees. The Synagogue of Satan.
 
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Keachian

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Evolution is Kabbalah, which is Ancient Babylonian Mystical Talmudism; and it's religion in the guise of "secular" science as part of the preface to ushering in the Eschaton Agenda. It became exponentially more prolific as the Copernican Revolution fed into the Darwinian Revolution, both paving the way for the Marxian Revolution and Freudian Revolution that has culminated in the Einsteinian and Saganian Revolutions.

This widespread delusion has permeated the Physical and Natural Sciences, the Social and Behavioral Sciences, and on into the Arts and Religion. It's the unifying theistic and atheistic One-World Religion for the Eschaton. Christians are embracing and integrating Theistic Evolution in droves.

Beware the Leaven of the (literal, actual, modern) Pharisees. The Synagogue of Satan.

I find this post to be devoid of historical, or theological basis let alone scientific ones. But if I understand correctly you are saying that belief in evolution whether from an atheistic or theistic standpoint is the religion of the beast. Come on I agree far more with my creationist counterparts on matters than I do with atheistic evolutionists.
 
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mark kennedy

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Evolution is Kabbalah, which is Ancient Babylonian Mystical Talmudism; and it's religion in the guise of "secular" science as part of the preface to ushering in the Eschaton Agenda. It became exponentially more prolific as the Copernican Revolution fed into the Darwinian Revolution, both paving the way for the Marxian Revolution and Freudian Revolution that has culminated in the Einsteinian and Saganian Revolutions.

I'm rather curious, by what standard did you determine this. I have long suspected a mystical tie of Darwinism to pagan mythology but it's always been like chasing ghosts in the dark. How do you correlate this pattern? Philosophically, historically, thematically. Just curious really, how did you come to you conclusions?

This widespread delusion has permeated the Physical and Natural Sciences, the Social and Behavioral Sciences, and on into the Arts and Religion. It's the unifying theistic and atheistic One-World Religion for the Eschaton. Christians are embracing and integrating Theistic Evolution in droves.

Beware the Leaven of the (literal, actual, modern) Pharisees. The Synagogue of Satan.

Eschaton, is a concept that is a kind of metaphysics that attempts a unified theory of religion (better described as transcendence). That much I can grasp loosely but I was wondering, would you care to elaborate on this a little?

I find this post to be devoid of historical, or theological basis let alone scientific ones. But if I understand correctly you are saying that belief in evolution whether from an atheistic or theistic standpoint is the religion of the beast. Come on I agree far more with my creationist counterparts on matters than I do with atheistic evolutionists.

I would advise caution here, not because the post was comprehensive but because the subject matter could prove relevant. I have spent some time looking into unified theories like the RCC synthesis, string theory as well as Darwinism (aka the Modern Synthesis). Give it a little time to run it's course, it might prove significant unless it turns out to be pedantic rhetoric.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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I find this post to be devoid of historical, or theological basis let alone scientific ones.

It was intended as a brief introductory summary overview. A comprehensive thesis would, of course, require its own thread and then some.

But if I understand correctly you are saying that belief in evolution whether from an atheistic or theistic standpoint is the religion of the beast.

Not exactly. Kabbalah is the One-World religion being subtly ushered in by the spirit of antichrist, which has been culture-sculpting since Eden to fulfill Genesis 3:5 and seize creation from the Creator Himself (if it were possible).

Big bang, expanding universe, billions of years, chaos to order, abiogenesis, evolution theories... all Kaballah. It's ancient religion subtly installed as "secular" science through theoretical methodologies. Mystery Babylon the Great.

The impersonal god-force "shattered" itself as the light into what is creation (big bang). Over billions of years, chaos found order within an infinitely-expanding vast creation. Life came out of this randomly, but all this was overseen and ordered by the one personal celestial being (Satan) who would shape it all into recapturing the "sparks" of the divinity that exploded and expanded. It's about reassembling the parts of divinity of which certain elite religious men can ascend back to by progressing beyond the current biological and physiological evolution to an intellectual and mental evolution. This is the process of man regaining and recapturing his inherent divinity. Of course, it's only for the elite initiates who are in world political, economic, and religious power; the rest of the world is chattel except for the "chosen of God".

One can be a theist or atheist and still share the basic tenets of parts of Kaballah, which is Ancient Babylonian Talmudism. There will be basic moral laws for those who are not initiates, and they appear to comply with Christian principles. The penalty for violating them will be death by beheading. This is already in place in the Executive and Legislative branches of our government; and our law schools and justices have already been progressing toward the integration and implementation of this at every level of government. The international scope is even more developed.

Again, this is just an extended introduction. I don't bother going much further unless others are receptive to something they ultimately know nothing of. History has been written by the victors, and much has been manipulated for many centuries and many generations. It's all unerringly culminating into all that scripture has foretold. You'd be mad or incredulous (or both or worse) about who was at the helm of this miasma of deceit and delusion, but it's a done deal and we're being thrust headlong into the latter stages approaching the Eschaton according to their Agenda.

Evolution is but a cog in the wheel, but a vital one. The Copernican Revolution paved the way, but nobody wants to hear about the basis of theoretical science being coerced. It's perceived to be "objective", and few can face the reality of long-term deception on this scale.

It's the spirit of antichrist. Be not ignorant of Satan's devices. He wants God's creation and glory and worship all for himself. This is HIS agenda in men. It's modern Babel... on steroids. And few are aware of any of it. I've spent the last 12 years in prayer/fasting/study and natural research to compile over 600GB of data and direct evidence. Every modern war has been started and manipulated to desired ends, among many other things. The world banks are all fractional reserve and ripe for planned collapse like a giant Jenga game. Fascism (National Socialism) and Communism (Multi-National Socialism) have been intentionally played off against Capitalism to ultimately combine them into Communitarianism. The Dialectic replacing the Didactic. Truth is now what consensus determines rather than being absolute and by divine authority. Tolerance. Speaking against certain things is and will become hate crimes. Homeland Security. Council on Foreign Relations. International Monetary Fund. United Nations. On and on.

Come on I agree far more with my creationist counterparts on matters than I do with atheistic evolutionists.

This isn't personal toward you or anyone else. I'm just sounding a warning trumpet that there's much more than most have any clue about. It's time to awake unto righteousness, and to have the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

Cosmology/Cosmogeny "Science" is NOT secular. It's part of Mystery Babylon.
 
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Keachian

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It was intended as a brief introductory summary overview. A comprehensive thesis would, of course, require its own thread and then some.
Most conspiracies tend to.

Not exactly. Kabbalah is the One-World religion being subtly ushered in by the spirit of antichrist, which has been culture-sculpting since Eden to fulfill Genesis 3:5 and seize creation from the Creator Himself (if it were possible).

Big bang, expanding universe, billions of years, chaos to order, abiogenesis, evolution theories... all Kaballah. It's ancient religion subtly installed as "secular" science through theoretical methodologies. Mystery Babylon the Great.

The impersonal god-force "shattered" itself as the light into what is creation (big bang). Over billions of years, chaos found order within an infinitely-expanding vast creation. Life came out of this randomly, but all this was overseen and ordered by the one personal celestial being (Satan) who would shape it all into recapturing the "sparks" of the divinity that exploded and expanded. It's about reassembling the parts of divinity of which certain elite religious men can ascend back to by progressing beyond the current biological and physiological evolution to an intellectual and mental evolution. This is the process of man regaining and recapturing his inherent divinity. Of course, it's only for the elite initiates who are in world political, economic, and religious power; the rest of the world is chattel except for the "chosen of God".
This is the first time hearing about any of this, I can say that my critical realism kicks in here and I dismiss that this is going on.

<snip>

In fact the rest of your post relies on the idea that Kabbalah is present everywhere, it's not. NWO drivel, unsupported by history and scripture
 
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I'm rather curious, by what standard did you determine this.

Spiritually, by long years of intense prayer/fasting/study. Naturally, through accessing and compiling a dozen years of copious research by the leadership of the Spirit.

I have long suspected a mystical tie of Darwinism to pagan mythology but it's always been like chasing ghosts in the dark.

Very true. It's been a grueling and arduous search for me.

How do you correlate this pattern? Philosophically, historically, thematically. Just curious really, how did you come to you conclusions?

By knowing the Word by the Spirit, and through voluminous research. Encountering a few key people at various times certainly helped put pieces together, as well.

Eschaton, is a concept that is a kind of metaphysics that attempts a unified theory of religion (better described as transcendence). That much I can grasp loosely but I was wondering, would you care to elaborate on this a little?

The Eschaton Agenda refers to the endtime judgement as the culmination of everything throughout human history. Satan, by the spirit of antichrist and then the man of sin, will be attempting to finally wrest all of creation from the Creator. There is MUCH detail regarding the "hows" and "whats", but it boils down to man believing the lie of Genesis 3:5 and attempting to ascend to regain his lost divinity. If not for the sovereignty of God, it would happen. Everything is in place for the "chosen" to have earthly dominion and progress toward the final evolutionary processes to become divine. Many areas of science are poised to contribute as the singularity of technology continues its exponential increase. Cloning, artificial intelligence, etc. The silliness of SciFi as reality going forward.

I would advise caution here, not because the post was comprehensive but because the subject matter could prove relevant. I have spent some time looking into unified theories like the RCC synthesis, string theory as well as Darwinism (aka the Modern Synthesis). Give it a little time to run it's course, it might prove significant unless it turns out to be pedantic rhetoric.

Grace and peace,
Mark

You and others can determine whether you consider it pedantic rhetoric or not. I know the truth and have been gradually preparing for it in many ways. This is just me blowing the trumpet.
 
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Trogool

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I don't understand this thread title. What debate? There isn't any. There's science, and a bunch of hicks and fundies who aren't well educated in science who don't believe in science because their pastor says its evul. Oh, and a bunch of people who fleece them like the Creation Museum and ICR and AiG and Ray Comfort.
 
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Most conspiracies tend to.


This is the first time hearing about any of this, I can say that my critical realism kicks in here and I dismiss that this is going on.

<snip>

In fact the rest of your post relies on the idea that Kabbalah is present everywhere, it's not. NWO drivel, unsupported by history and scripture

Okay. Well, go your way in oblivious ignorance and arrogant self-delusion, trusting presumed empiricism of theoretical science and all your own wisdom and knowledge. Your "critical realism" is irrelevant. Strong delusion. Enjoy.
 
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Trogool

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Keachian

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Okay. Well, go your way in oblivious ignorance and arrogant self-delusion, trusting presumed empiricism of theoretical science and all your own wisdom and knowledge. Your "critical realism" is irrelevant. Strong delusion. Enjoy.

I focus on what God's doing, not what Satan is doing, that old snake has been defeated and his most powerful weapons have been blunted by the Cross, I do not seek after what Satan is doing, why would I? It is far more interesting and far more beneficial to my faith to know that God is in control and is working to bring his Kingdom out of the darkness and to work with him to achieve that end, I am his tool and he uses me well.
 
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I focus on what God's doing, not what Satan is doing, that old snake has been defeated and his most powerful weapons have been blunted by the Cross, I do not seek after what Satan is doing, why would I? It is far more interesting and far more beneficial to my faith to know that God is in control and is working to bring his Kingdom out of the darkness and to work with him to achieve that end, I am his tool and he uses me well.

If you believe the spirit of antichrist Evolution model of Goo-2-Zoo-2-You, you're wholly seeking after what Satan is doing.
 
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