How Have You resolved the Creationism vs Evolution Debate?

[Keachian]

Citation? I don't recognize that phrasing. Which apostle?
Is not God, who is entirely spiritual, prior to matter? The existence of matter has a beginning; God is eternal.

Paul, 1 Corinthians 15. However this passage is not dealing with a dualistic mindset such as Old Seer wants to say, it is more about our Bpatism in Christ and our Resurrection than about there being two distinct and separate things, the Body and the Spirit

 

[mathetes123]

They're both wrong.
Biblical creation isn't a material creation, it's spiritual. Material wan't made in this sequence IE- first the light and then the sun. It's symbolism for spiritual things such as - Light=enlightenment, waters =though or state of mind, earth=soul, greater light=knowledge of being rightful, lesser light=knowldge of the dark side or evil-etc. Biblical creaton is the creation of a personage not a material universe. Christianity is about spiritual condition of one's self not about where material things came from. the evolutionist is wrong in that ---the study of the body or where it came from does not make one human. Human is a spiritual entity not a physical one. There-fore to say they are studying humanity is not so. The bod is material and that is the physical--the physical is still material and cannot be human. There's no such thing as a "human" body. Only one's personage can be human. Both are in the same mistake.

2 John 1:7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

 

[mathetes123]

Alpha Guardianship: a team of explorers/adventurers, of which are also academics in engineering, psychiatry, archeology, physics, law, the medicines, and other fields. In 1985 we took on the bible as a project of study. Our studies were completed in the summer of 1992. We are making the effort to rely the findings to others. We are not Theists, Deists, Atheists, Christians, but independent thinkers, and are of no religion other then one we have encountered/found.. We are voices calling in the wilderness.

Yer rowng. Christianity is about ones' own spiritual condition--not about material studies or adoring the physical. Material studies belong to another science. Christianity is not about the material sciences. Everyone has been deceived by Dark Age, Medieval interpretations and translations. Why is it that anything new that's been found is attributed to Satan or improper biblical understanding. The Pope and his minions have been claiming such since Europeans got a hold of the book. It's their way or the highway. There's a new Sheriff in town with (finally) the proper shootin irons and ammo. Christianity is about one's person not one's bod or where it came from. Bear in mind--the end times happen because Proper interpretaions arrive, and ruins conventional idea and thinking.

1 Timothy 6:20-21
20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," 21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith.

Grace be with you.

 

[Old Seer]

2 John 1:7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

So, anything you guys don't understand or have seen before is a message from Satan. That meas the old age Euros were all knowing and all enlightened. The interpretations you have today have been generated from them. This sounds like the Pope abot 800 years ago. Anything he doesn't understand originates from the devil. The folks that gave you the present understandings of the book believed the planet was flat. And it's these types that you are relying on for understanding. Not hearing it. We were brought up in religions too, but to much didn't make sense. But none of you are deceived --right. We've beaten the best Atheists on the planet---and we're wrong. We, bet none of you can do it. They're wrong to, but won't admit it either, Quite a conundrum we have here eh. Go on one of their sites and show them wrong. If your right it'll take about 30 days to back them in a corner they can't get out of. If you can't beat them you are deceived. One who is deceived cannot beat an Atheist. Show them God, don't just tell them there's one.

 

[gluadys]

Show them God, don't just tell them there's one.

The best way to show anyone there is a God is to live as Christ taught us:

Love one another, as I have loved you. By this all will know you are my disciples, if you love one another.

If you love me, keep my commandments.

 

[mathetes123]

So, anything you guys don't understand or have seen before is a message from Satan. That meas the old age Euros were all knowing and all enlightened. The interpretations you have today have been generated from them. This sounds like the Pope abot 800 years ago. Anything he doesn't understand originates from the devil. The folks that gave you the present understandings of the book believed the planet was flat. And it's these types that you are relying on for understanding. Not hearing it. We were brought up in religions too, but to much didn't make sense. But none of you are deceived --right. We've beaten the best Atheists on the planet---and we're wrong. We, bet none of you can do it. They're wrong to, but won't admit it either, Quite a conundrum we have here eh. Go on one of their sites and show them wrong. If your right it'll take about 30 days to back them in a corner they can't get out of. If you can't beat them you are deceived. One who is deceived cannot beat an Atheist. Show them God, don't just tell them there's one.

Christians have been disputing the heresy of Gnosticism since the verses I quoted were first penned nearly 2000 years ago.

 

[Somchai]

I would like to read discussions of how other Christians have thought about this debate. Serious and theological discussions only, please.

I have not resolved this. As new Christian I find Christian friends are split. Some one way, some other way. I am seeking answer.

 

[miamited]

hi somchai,

Welcome. Let me just offer a strong caution that wandering around in these threads without a firm knowledge of the Scriptures can be dangerous. I don't say this to send you off, but to encourage that along with all that you pick up in here and enter into your 'truth' file, be sifted through the words of truth first.

I am 56 years old and was born again about 15 years ago. I have been in the exact same spot as the many on these boards who see the writings of Genesis as some sort of parable, poem, or whatever is used to describe the writings as not presenting the true facts of the beginning of how and why God created this realm of existence. When I was born again, one of my first cries to my Father was to give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him through His word. To know the truth. For about 2 years I couldn't put the Scriptures down. Much like Paul, I went through an initiation of saturation in the truth, before going out to do the works of service that God asks of all His children.

You will never understand what I'm talking about unless you have been born again, but I hope that you will understand that it is the first step to finding the truth. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again, he cannot 'see' the kingdom of God." The clear, to me, implication being that once we are born again, and yes, it is a test of that very event, we then become able to 'see' the kingdom of God.

My two years of diligent study confirmed for me the realtime factual account of the creation, flood, parting of the sea, turning back the sun, child born with no human sperm, etc. I stood in awe as I went through a sort of metamorphosis from the old creature to the new. From believing much of what the world taught to believing that only God and His word are the truth about all things regarding our existence, spiritual, and moral truth. It was an amazing time in my life and has led me to a place of total love and awe and prayerful thanksgiving to Him who gave me life.

I began to realize a God who is so powerful, so wise and so majestic and full of love that in a mere instant He could merely sweep His hand, so to speak, across the emptiness of black inky space of this realm and literally fill it with all that we see, for I began to understand that where the Scriptures say that He created all things, both visible and invisible, that that didn't just mean the molecular structure of the earth and all that is in and on it, but likewise everything in the entire expanse of the universe. Trust me, it'll just blow you away when you can 'see' the kingdom of God.

But I also understood that not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' was born of God's Spirit. Nicodemus, obviously a man who had spent the better part of his entire life studying and living what he believed God wanted of him by his understanding of the Scriptures and what the Jewish teachers and synagogues told him was the 'truth', didn't understand what Jesus was saying.

Friend, God is so powerful, so wise that to fill the universe from one end to the other, which we can't even find yet, is like child's play and once we realize that then we begin to ask the questions: Well, why would it take this God that can do this in an instant, millions of years? This God who creates nothing that isn't perfect, how is it that He had to allow animals and mankind to evolve?

Now, yes, there are those who will try to convince you that if 'science' is wrong, then God's a liar, but I believe if science is wrong then man just doesn't understand yet, the marvelous work that God has done. There honestly is no way for man to ever understand and appreciate all that God has done. Our minds just aren't capable of wrapping itself around such profound power, strength and wisdom.

God bless you and my encouragement to you is to seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.

God bless you,.
In Christ, Ted

 

[gluadys]

I have not resolved this. As new Christian I find Christian friends are split. Some one way, some other way. I am seeking answer.

Welcome to CF, Somchai. I think you are the first participant I have seen from Thailand.

As a new Christian, it is probably best to take your time. There are many things more important to think about than creation/evolution. Remember, it makes no difference to your relationship to Jesus what you think on this issue. It is much more important to fill your life with Christ's love and share it with all your family and friends.

As for my own thoughts, I think the debate should never have been set up as "creation or evolution". From the time Darwin first published there have been Christians who understood that if evolution is how we originated, then that was God's way of creating us. So it is really God creating by evolution. There is no need to choose one to the exclusion of the other.

 

[duordi]

Hello all!
I see everyone is still here.

As for the thread topic.

There is no reason to accept a non-literal Geneses unless of course you want to.

Science and short term dating systems (especially carbon 14) agree with a literal Geneses creation. Long term dating systems ( millions and billions of years ) disagree with carbon 14 methods and recent discoveries such as the discovery of blood residue in dinosaur bones.

Neither the expanded creation or the short creation theories have proof without holes.

In my opinion the evolutionary theory is not compatible with the Bible record event if you take is as metaphorical because the Bible starts with perfection and de-evolves. Evolution starts with nothing and evolves. So you see they are opposites of each other.

Evolution has had much more support from research endeavors and is the predominant belief of society. Of course the majority of humanity will go to hell so I highly recomend you check things for yourself.

You will have to search to find the aliterate view because those of us who actually consider that the Bible may be literal are few even among professing christians.

The Internet is a wonderful tool because it can not be dominated by the majority opinion but be aware this topic is has very strong opinions on both sides of the fence and opinions tend to cause a filtering of information to tip the scales toward one side or the other. This is true for opinions on both sides of this argument.

I can take this a step further and say you should not take what anyone says without checking it which includes my comments. Even though I believe I am correct you must get into the habit of checking everyone for your own good.

Because of the polarization on this issue it is difficult to get the positives and negatives for both the long creation and short creation ideas at one location.

Before you start know the Bible record. Many on this forum know a lot more about the evoloutionary theory then they do about the creatoin account. It is important that you understand both.

Have fun!

Duordi

 

[Keachian]

There is no reason to accept a non-literal Geneses unless of course you want to.

Well I could number a whole lot, it's a poem, it's prophetic, it describes the construction of a temple...

Science and short term dating systems (especially carbon 14) agree with a literal Geneses creation. Long term dating systems ( millions and billions of years ) disagree with carbon 14 methods and recent discoveries such as the discovery of blood residue in dinosaur bones.

Neither the expanded creation or the short creation theories have proof without holes.

Wrong.

In my opinion the evolutionary theory is not compatible with the Bible record event if you take is as metaphorical because the Bible starts with perfection and de-evolves. Evolution starts with nothing and evolves. So you see they are opposites of each other.

Well done, you have totally missed what the opening chapters of Genesis say if we take them at parable level.

Evolution has had much more support from research endeavors and is the predominant belief of society. Of course the majority of humanity will go to hell so I highly recomend you check things for yourself.

Really? Where on earth do you get that idea?

You will have to search to find the aliterate view because those of us who actually consider that the Bible may be literal are few even among professing christians.

The Internet is a wonderful tool because it can not be dominated by the majority opinion but be aware this topic is has very strong opinions on both sides of the fence and opinions tend to cause a filtering of information to tip the scales toward one side or the other. This is true for opinions on both sides of this argument.

The internet is full of loonies, anyone can peddle their own crackpot ideas that do not line up with reality in any way shape or form.

I can take this a step further and say you should not take what anyone says without checking it which includes my comments. Even though I believe I am correct you must get into the habit of checking everyone for your own good.

Well that's what peer review does...

Because of the polarization on this issue it is difficult to get the positives and negatives for both the long creation and short creation ideas at one location.

Before you start know the Bible record. Many on this forum know a lot more about the evoloutionary theory then they do about the creatoin account. It is important that you understand both.

Agreed, however that doesn't mean that I need to swallow all the gross ineptitudes in theology that most creationists want to ram down my throat.

Have fun!

I am!

 

[duordi]

I see we disagree on many topics.
Is there a specific "gross ineptitudes in theology" that you would like to discuss.

Duordi

 

[Somchai]

hi somchai,

Welcome. Let me just offer a strong caution that wandering around in these threads without a firm knowledge of the Scriptures can be dangerous. I don't say this to send you off, but to encourage that along with all that you pick up in here and enter into your 'truth' file, be sifted through the words of truth first.

I am 56 years old and was born again about 15 years ago. I have been in the exact same spot as the many on these boards who see the writings of Genesis as some sort of parable, poem, or whatever is used to describe the writings as not presenting the true facts of the beginning of how and why God created this realm of existence. When I was born again, one of my first cries to my Father was to give me an unquenchable thirst to know Him through His word. To know the truth. For about 2 years I couldn't put the Scriptures down. Much like Paul, I went through an initiation of saturation in the truth, before going out to do the works of service that God asks of all His children.

You will never understand what I'm talking about unless you have been born again, but I hope that you will understand that it is the first step to finding the truth. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again, he cannot 'see' the kingdom of God." The clear, to me, implication being that once we are born again, and yes, it is a test of that very event, we then become able to 'see' the kingdom of God.

My two years of diligent study confirmed for me the realtime factual account of the creation, flood, parting of the sea, turning back the sun, child born with no human sperm, etc. I stood in awe as I went through a sort of metamorphosis from the old creature to the new. From believing much of what the world taught to believing that only God and His word are the truth about all things regarding our existence, spiritual, and moral truth. It was an amazing time in my life and has led me to a place of total love and awe and prayerful thanksgiving to Him who gave me life.

I began to realize a God who is so powerful, so wise and so majestic and full of love that in a mere instant He could merely sweep His hand, so to speak, across the emptiness of black inky space of this realm and literally fill it with all that we see, for I began to understand that where the Scriptures say that He created all things, both visible and invisible, that that didn't just mean the molecular structure of the earth and all that is in and on it, but likewise everything in the entire expanse of the universe. Trust me, it'll just blow you away when you can 'see' the kingdom of God.

But I also understood that not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' was born of God's Spirit. Nicodemus, obviously a man who had spent the better part of his entire life studying and living what he believed God wanted of him by his understanding of the Scriptures and what the Jewish teachers and synagogues told him was the 'truth', didn't understand what Jesus was saying.

Friend, God is so powerful, so wise that to fill the universe from one end to the other, which we can't even find yet, is like child's play and once we realize that then we begin to ask the questions: Well, why would it take this God that can do this in an instant, millions of years? This God who creates nothing that isn't perfect, how is it that He had to allow animals and mankind to evolve?

Now, yes, there are those who will try to convince you that if 'science' is wrong, then God's a liar, but I believe if science is wrong then man just doesn't understand yet, the marvelous work that God has done. There honestly is no way for man to ever understand and appreciate all that God has done. Our minds just aren't capable of wrapping itself around such profound power, strength and wisdom.

God bless you and my encouragement to you is to seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.

God bless you,.
In Christ, Ted

Thank you Ted. I do not see God's kingdom as you do. I need more study I guess. When I became a Christian I found Christ. I felt Christ. I know He lives. Pastor told me that this means I born again. I need faith more to see what you see.

 

[miamited]

hi somchai,

You responded: Thank you Ted. I do not see God's kingdom as you do. I need more study I guess. When I became a Christian I found Christ. I felt Christ. I know He lives. Pastor told me that this means I born again. I need faith more to see what you see.

I understand. That's part of the process of maturing and sanctification. We do, initially, come to understand that Jesus, the Son of the living God, died for our sin. He carried our sin upon himself when he suffered death, but because he himself was without sin, God raised him from the dead. Now, I think, it's very important for us to understand why God raised Jesus from the dead on this earth.

Jesus had spent some 3 years traveling throughout Israel teaching and explaining all about God, his Father. He explained why we were created and how God asks us to live so that we can live an eternal existence of peace and love. If we harbor hate, then we aren't going to be able to live eternally with other people. If we want to steal to gain things that we don't have, then we're not going to be able to live eterally with other people. If one considers all of the laws of the 10 commandments, I believe, we see two issues being asked of us. The first is to love the one who created us and gave us life and provided through the creation all that we need to live and breath and eat. To know that that One desires to live with and enjoy in peace and reciprocal love people that He has done all of this for. For those people to trust and understand that God gets to make the rules. He gets to be in charge just by the fact that He is the One who gives life. Apart from God there is no life. No universe. No earth. No plants or animals or anything else that we need to live. Apart from God we wouldn't even exist, period. Because of that 'fact' God demands to be respected for who He is and the first laws declare this.

The remaining laws provide the rules by which we must live with one another if we are to live in peace with each other. God knows this and it is the plan that God is going to give to each one of us who decides to allow God the authority that He deserves, to be resurrected to live that life. The eternal life of our being submissive and giving glory to God and living among other people who feel and live and understand exactly as each other.

So, why did God raise Jesus up to life on earth? Jesus is our 'proof'. God has shown by the power of his resurrection that He can do and will do that which He has promised to do and we can look at the resurrection of Jesus and say to ourselves, "Yep, God can do it!" So, Jesus' resurrection on the earth was a testimony for us to see that God can and will do just exactly what He has said He can and will do. After Jesus made known to men the 'proof' that God can do what He has said He can and will do, Jesus ascended then up into heaven.

Now, I respect your pastor and I'm sure he's striving like the rest of us to be a godly man, but here's what Jesus said was the proof of being born again. "I tell you the truth. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

If you ever read through the Scriptures, here's what I believe you will find, if the Holy Spirit is leading you into all truth:

About 6,000 years ago God created this realm of existence. All the stars and planets and all that is on the earth didn't even exist before that because that is when God began the work of creating this realm and this entire realm was created to be a place, a realm in which man could live. The earth was populated with plants and animals and water and atmosphere so that man could live here. The stars and all the other heavenly bodies were created so that the earth could exist eternally. If you ever get to see a moving planetarium you may be impressed with awe at just how perfect the univese was created that it all moves about with precision and is choreographed that our sun and the entire solar system in which we live is just asmall piece of the whole, but that the whole was created to provide eternal existence for the earth, which would in turn provide an eternal place for man to live. It truly is a perfect and eternal design. If you read the last two chapters of the Revelation you will see that in the end all those who have loved God and agreed to His terms will live right here on the earth where we will be His people and He will be our God.

That, my friend, is the ultimate end that we are moving towards. However, God has decreed a time of His patience to allow some to come to understand and choose to live as He desires that we live. We are living in that time and God wants us to know what it is that we are to be doing.

So, shortly after creating this realm and after sin and rebellion of mankind became the normative lifestye of men. God called a man by the name of Abram and promised to raise up from him a nation of people who would be His people. They were raised up for the purpose of doing the work on earth that God wanted done that people might know Him and repent and return to Him and thus enjoy the ultimate promise of eternal life. But, God is wise and He knows that men can't be trusted just to hand down by word of mouth over centuries what it is that He wants us to know and come to understand and so part of the purpose of raising up this nation of people who were to honor Him, was to write the Scriptures. And so they did! God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, had men write down all that He wanted us to know.

Throughout the next 1500 years after God called Abraham, He had a written account made of who He is and His purpose in creating this realm and how it was necessary and expected that men would live, if they were to live eternally with Him. He also put in prophecy after prophecy of someone who was going to come and redeem us from our sin. Someone would be sent by God to make righteous the unrighteous. That someone, of course, was Jesus! God had all of this written down so that generation after generation after generation could know the truth if they so desired.

Then, as the Scriptures declare, in the fullness of time, in other words once all that had to be written of prophecy telling us how this redeeemer was going to live, where he would be born, how he would be born, the things that he would do, the things by which men could look at his life and say, "Hey, that guy is the one that the Scriptures tell us about." Jesus came to us.

We now live in the times of the Gentiles. God opened His heart to the descendents of Abraham and worked through those people, the Jews, to set out in clear written language just exactly what and why He was doing the things that He was doing. Once Jesus came, then the whole plan of God's salvation was made known to all the peoples of the earth. Today we are living in those days. We have all that we need to know and understand who God is and His great plan of salvation and God is patiently waiting that some will come to understand His truth.

Finally, God has also given us the true prophecie of how this is all going to end. A day is coming when God will stand up from His throne and declare, "Enough!! The time has come!! Son, go get your children!! Those who have believed your testimony, and bring them into the storehouse for I am about to release all my pent up wrath that I have held over for the centuries that the earth has so far existed!" After God has released His wrath He will then call all men to judgment and those who have believed, by faith, the true testimony of His Son, His Spirit and His word will then be given the eternal existence of peace and love and brotherhood among one another and giving glory and honor and praise to God. They will live eternally under God's loving and patient authority.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[gluadys]

hi somchai,

I agree with almost everything Ted has said, except this:

If you ever read through the Scriptures, here's what I believe you will find, if the Holy Spirit is leading you into all truth:

About 6,000 years ago God created this realm of existence.

One disagreement is factual. Does scripture tell us God created about 6,000 years ago? Even before Jesus was born, Jewish scholars debated the nature of the days in Genesis 1, some perceiving them to be days unlike ours. But whatever their personal conclusions, they did not exclude others from the Jewish community. Early Christian scholars also debated the nature of these days and came to different conclusions, but did not make one conclusion a test of faith or excommunicate anyone because they believed differently.

Today even among those who disagree on matters such as evolution, there are a variety of opinions about the age of the earth. So we can't really say of a certainty that scripture teaches any one moment at which creation began.




A much more serious concern though, is that an interpretation of scripture is aligned with "the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth". Agreement on the way to interpret a passage of scripture is made a test of whether a person is led by the Holy Spirit.

This is not the test named in scripture itself. There the apostles tell us "No one can say 'Jesus is lord' except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3 and "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." 1 John 4:2

The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father to those who name Jesus as Lord, in heart and mind and obedience as well as by tongue. These, Jesus tells us, will be known by their fruits, the fruits of the Spirit in their lives---not by their opinion on a passage of scripture that has been debated for over two millennia with no consensus forthcoming.

 

[Somchai]

hi somchai,

You responded: Thank you Ted. I do not see God's kingdom as you do. I need more study I guess. When I became a Christian I found Christ. I felt Christ. I know He lives. Pastor told me that this means I born again. I need faith more to see what you see.

I understand. That's part of the process of maturing and sanctification. We do, initially, come to understand that Jesus, the Son of the living God, died for our sin. He carried our sin upon himself when he suffered death, but because he himself was without sin, God raised him from the dead. Now, I think, it's very important for us to understand why God raised Jesus from the dead on this earth.

Jesus had spent some 3 years traveling throughout Israel teaching and explaining all about God, his Father. He explained why we were created and how God asks us to live so that we can live an eternal existence of peace and love. If we harbor hate, then we aren't going to be able to live eternally with other people. If we want to steal to gain things that we don't have, then we're not going to be able to live eterally with other people. If one considers all of the laws of the 10 commandments, I believe, we see two issues being asked of us. The first is to love the one who created us and gave us life and provided through the creation all that we need to live and breath and eat. To know that that One desires to live with and enjoy in peace and reciprocal love people that He has done all of this for. For those people to trust and understand that God gets to make the rules. He gets to be in charge just by the fact that He is the One who gives life. Apart from God there is no life. No universe. No earth. No plants or animals or anything else that we need to live. Apart from God we wouldn't even exist, period. Because of that 'fact' God demands to be respected for who He is and the first laws declare this.

The remaining laws provide the rules by which we must live with one another if we are to live in peace with each other. God knows this and it is the plan that God is going to give to each one of us who decides to allow God the authority that He deserves, to be resurrected to live that life. The eternal life of our being submissive and giving glory to God and living among other people who feel and live and understand exactly as each other.

So, why did God raise Jesus up to life on earth? Jesus is our 'proof'. God has shown by the power of his resurrection that He can do and will do that which He has promised to do and we can look at the resurrection of Jesus and say to ourselves, "Yep, God can do it!" So, Jesus' resurrection on the earth was a testimony for us to see that God can and will do just exactly what He has said He can and will do. After Jesus made known to men the 'proof' that God can do what He has said He can and will do, Jesus ascended then up into heaven.

Now, I respect your pastor and I'm sure he's striving like the rest of us to be a godly man, but here's what Jesus said was the proof of being born again. "I tell you the truth. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

If you ever read through the Scriptures, here's what I believe you will find, if the Holy Spirit is leading you into all truth:

About 6,000 years ago God created this realm of existence. All the stars and planets and all that is on the earth didn't even exist before that because that is when God began the work of creating this realm and this entire realm was created to be a place, a realm in which man could live. The earth was populated with plants and animals and water and atmosphere so that man could live here. The stars and all the other heavenly bodies were created so that the earth could exist eternally. If you ever get to see a moving planetarium you may be impressed with awe at just how perfect the univese was created that it all moves about with precision and is choreographed that our sun and the entire solar system in which we live is just asmall piece of the whole, but that the whole was created to provide eternal existence for the earth, which would in turn provide an eternal place for man to live. It truly is a perfect and eternal design. If you read the last two chapters of the Revelation you will see that in the end all those who have loved God and agreed to His terms will live right here on the earth where we will be His people and He will be our God.

That, my friend, is the ultimate end that we are moving towards. However, God has decreed a time of His patience to allow some to come to understand and choose to live as He desires that we live. We are living in that time and God wants us to know what it is that we are to be doing.

So, shortly after creating this realm and after sin and rebellion of mankind became the normative lifestye of men. God called a man by the name of Abram and promised to raise up from him a nation of people who would be His people. They were raised up for the purpose of doing the work on earth that God wanted done that people might know Him and repent and return to Him and thus enjoy the ultimate promise of eternal life. But, God is wise and He knows that men can't be trusted just to hand down by word of mouth over centuries what it is that He wants us to know and come to understand and so part of the purpose of raising up this nation of people who were to honor Him, was to write the Scriptures. And so they did! God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, had men write down all that He wanted us to know.

Throughout the next 1500 years after God called Abraham, He had a written account made of who He is and His purpose in creating this realm and how it was necessary and expected that men would live, if they were to live eternally with Him. He also put in prophecy after prophecy of someone who was going to come and redeem us from our sin. Someone would be sent by God to make righteous the unrighteous. That someone, of course, was Jesus! God had all of this written down so that generation after generation after generation could know the truth if they so desired.

Then, as the Scriptures declare, in the fullness of time, in other words once all that had to be written of prophecy telling us how this redeeemer was going to live, where he would be born, how he would be born, the things that he would do, the things by which men could look at his life and say, "Hey, that guy is the one that the Scriptures tell us about." Jesus came to us.

We now live in the times of the Gentiles. God opened His heart to the descendents of Abraham and worked through those people, the Jews, to set out in clear written language just exactly what and why He was doing the things that He was doing. Once Jesus came, then the whole plan of God's salvation was made known to all the peoples of the earth. Today we are living in those days. We have all that we need to know and understand who God is and His great plan of salvation and God is patiently waiting that some will come to understand His truth.

Finally, God has also given us the true prophecie of how this is all going to end. A day is coming when God will stand up from His throne and declare, "Enough!! The time has come!! Son, go get your children!! Those who have believed your testimony, and bring them into the storehouse for I am about to release all my pent up wrath that I have held over for the centuries that the earth has so far existed!" After God has released His wrath He will then call all men to judgment and those who have believed, by faith, the true testimony of His Son, His Spirit and His word will then be given the eternal existence of peace and love and brotherhood among one another and giving glory and honor and praise to God. They will live eternally under God's loving and patient authority.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Thank you for your long response Ted. I still do not see "the kingdom of God" as you seem to do. I can't see how being born again allows seeing something that has yet to come to be. Pastor said this was with second coming of Christ. You said: You will never understand what I'm talking about unless you have been born again, but I hope that you will understand that it is the first step to finding the truth. Jesus said, "Unless a man be born again, he cannot 'see' the kingdom of God" The clear, to me, implication being that once we are born again, and yes, it is a test of that very event, we then become able to 'see' the kingdom of God. I do not think any of us can come to see this now. I think I am born again and I cannot for it has not come to be yet.

 

[miamited]

hi glaudys,

You responded: One disagreement is factual. Does scripture tell us God created about 6,000 years ago? Even before Jesus was born, Jewish scholars debated the nature of the days in Genesis 1, some perceiving them to be days unlike ours. But whatever their personal conclusions, they did not exclude others from the Jewish community. Early Christian scholars also debated the nature of these days and came to different conclusions, but did not make one conclusion a test of faith or excommunicate anyone because they believed differently.

I understand. Yes, even in the days that Peter wrote his epistles he warned that there were those who distorted Paul's writings just as they have done the other Scriptures.

See if this sounds familiar.
The ox knows his master, the donkey his owner's manger, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand."

So, now you tell me that there are even Jews who would disagree with the way, and many others, believe about the beginning of this creation. Well, that honestly doesn't make them any different today then God told Isaiah centuries ago. So, if the Jews didn't get it with all that God personally spoke to them about through the prophets and the Scripture, I'm not at all surprised that the world at large doesn't get it.

However, as to your claim: Does Scripture God created about 6,000 years ago.? Yes! Take a pencil and a piece of paper and write down the years of Adam until Seth was born. Then write down the years after Seth was born until Enosh was born. Then write down he number of years until Enosh had Kenan, etc. until you get to Noah. Add those numbers up and set the total aside. (Genesis 5)

Now, Noah was 600 years old when the flood came. (Genesis 7:6) Add that to your total. Shem was 100 years old 2 years after the flood. (Genesis 11:10) Add two years to your total. At that time Shem became the father of Arphaxad. Arphaxad was 35 years old when Shelah was born. Shelah was 30 when Eber was born, etc. Total of the years from father to son until the birth of Abram and add that to your total.

Now it becomes a bit more difficult because you have to read each son's account to find out the length of years that passed. Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (Genesis 21:5) Add that to your total. Isaac was 60 years old when Rebekah gave birth to Jacob and Esau. (Genesis 25:26) Add that to your total. Jacob was 130 when he and his sons went to live in Egypt. (Genesis 47:9) Add that to your total. The Israelites lived in Egypt 430 years. (Exodus 12:40) Add that to your total.

Now it becomes even more difficult because we have to count out the 40 years the Israelites wandered in Egypt and then begin to count the reigns of the kings. However, at this point there is plenty of extrabiblical evidence that we can draw on, but suffice it to say that if you take the total number of years that you have so far, my study bible tells me that the Exodus from Egypt occurred about 1450 BC, so add 1,450 years to your running total and you will have reached, in your timeline, the change in the calander from BC to AD. We know for a fact that it is right now today the year 2012 AD and so if you add 2,012 to your present total you will have, within a few years of course, how many years have passed upon the earth since Adam was created.

Now, for us literalists it is therefore easy to work out and understand that the age of the earth is the total of years that you have counted up + six days. With a fudge factor of, oh, maybe 100 years or so. Further we have the Jewish calander and God has revealed himself to us always, always, always through His people Israel. The count of years of the Jewish calander right now today is 5762. Hmmmmm. Now, there are some that will claim that the Jewish calander didn't really start from year one of the creation and so I don't base my claim solely on the Jewish calandar. I base it on both calculations. The account of years that God has written to me and the count of years that supports the Jewish calandar. But, even if we 'assume' that the Jewish calandar started at least with Moses, then we'd only be off about 1500 years by adding the time from Adam to Moses.

So, yes, God's word does spell out for us in clear mathematical language that anyone with a pencil and piece of paper can work out, if they believe the word of God is the 'truth' that God has revealed to mankind through His Holy Spirit, that the earth, and the universe created a couple days after the earth, is about 6,000 years old. If you don't want to accept the Jewish calandar as being correct and that it was started with at least Moses, then the most you will add to that time is 1500 more years or so. Certianly not millions or billions of even anywhere close to 20,000.

Now, the choice that every man must make is this. Will I believe God or man? Am I going to believe that even though Paul has told me that the Scriptures are the mind of the Holy Spirit, all these accountings of years of geneology recorded in the Scriptures are not correct because some scientist tells me its impossible. Remember, God can do and does the impossible! Even though God has clearly told me that He created all things in this realm in six days, each one consisting of an evening and a morning just like a day is still today, and repeats it at least 3 times in the Scriptures; even though God has clearly given an accounting of the years from Adam, the first man, to today through the geneologies and records of the Scriptures. I don't believe it! That, my friend, is your choice. Will you live by faith in God and trust that He has told you the truth or will you rather work to obfuscate and wander from that truth because some men have told you that it just isn't at all whatsoever even hardly cannot be possible!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[miamited]

hi Somchai,

You posted: I can't see how being born again allows seeing something that has yet to come to be.

Who told you that the kingdom of God has not yet come? Jesus spoke in at least a couple of places that the kingdom of God is here now. Unfortunately, without the Holy Spirit and truth, we can't see it. The kingdom of God is where the angels live right now and have always since their creation. The kingdom of God has always existed as God has always existed. When the angels appeared to men throughout the Scriptures, they stepped out of the kingdom of God and God made them visible to whoever it was they were supposed to be seen by. Gabriel seems to be the angel most often sent from the invisible kingdom of God to the visible realm we live in, but there is also the account of the shepherds watching their flocks at night who witnessed the most glorious and awesome sighting of angels out of the kingdom of God.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:28 But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Luke 17:21
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

You cannot inherit something that does not exist.

Yes, much of Scripture does talk about that future day when born again believers will live in the kingdom of God which is what Jesus said next to Nicodemus. "I tell you the truth. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit."

So, Jesus is clear that we can 'see' the kingdom of God now when we are born of God's Spirit in this life, but we will later 'enter' the kingdom of God which is shown us in the last two chapters of the Revelation. Jesus is speaking of two separate events in the life of the born again child of the living God. The first, we receive now as we live this life. The second we enjoy later when God will be our God and we will be His people living in the kingdom of God on the earth. We presently live 'in' the kingdom of Satan, but can 'see' the kingdom of God.

Let me encourage you to read over that passage in John 3 where Jesus is saying these things to Nicodemus and pray the Father, by the Spirit give you wisdom and understanding of what these things mean. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to do that and God delights in revealing himself to those who love Him. Read it over a few times and ask God straight out, "Father, why did Jesus first say 'see' the kingdom of God and then 'enter' the kingdom of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Somchai]

You cannot inherit something that does not exist.

Yes, much of Scripture does talk about that future day when born again believers will live in the kingdom of God which is what Jesus said next to Nicodemus. "I tell you the truth. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit."

So, Jesus is clear that we can 'see' the kingdom of God now when we are born of God's Spirit in this life, but we will later 'enter' the kingdom of God which is shown us in the last two chapters of the Revelation. Jesus is speaking of two separate events in the life of the born again child of the living God. The first, we receive now as we live this life. The second we enjoy later when God will be our God and we will be His people living in the kingdom of God on the earth. We presently live 'in' the kingdom of Satan, but can 'see' the kingdom of God.

Let me encourage you to read over that passage in John 3 where Jesus is saying these things to Nicodemus and pray the Father, by the Spirit give you wisdom and understanding of what these things mean. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to do that and God delights in revealing himself to those who love Him. Read it over a few times and ask God straight out, "Father, why did Jesus first say 'see' the kingdom of God and then 'enter' the kingdom of God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

My pastor thinks otherwise and I think he may know better. Jesus told Nicodemus what was needed to enter the kingdom of God. I think he meant the same thing as enter when he said see. To see it you must be there. To see Bangkok I must be here.

 

[Keachian]

I see we disagree on many topics.
Is there a specific "gross ineptitudes in theology" that you would like to discuss.

Duordi

Sorry about the long time in between replies.

The problems I have with YEC boil down to biblical literalism and the idea that things were created to have the appearance of age, in my mind there isn't really any other viable way of explaining YEC.

But that may very well be me building a strawman, so let's actually discuss what our theological beliefs are, building up how we understand the nature of these things:

• the Bible being inspired
• Sin
• Relationship between the scriptures and the universe