How green is my Catechism.

atpollard said:

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith​

Chapter 1 – The Holy Scriptures​

1. The Holy Scriptures are the only sufficient, certain, and infallible standard of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.1 The light of nature and the works of creation and providence so clearly demonstrate the goodness, wisdom, and power of God that people are left without excuse; however, these demonstrations are not sufficient to give the knowledge of God and his will that is necessary for salvation.2 Therefore, the Lord was pleased at different times and in various ways to reveal himself and to declare his will to his church.3 To preserve and propagate the truth better and to establish and comfort the church with greater certainty against the corruption of the flesh and the malice of Satan and the world, the Lord put this revelation completely in writing. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures are absolutely necessary, because God’s former ways of revealing his will to his people have now ceased.4​

1 2 Timothy 3:15–17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20. 2 Romans 1:19–21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalm 19:1–3. 3 Hebrews 1:1. 4 Proverbs 22:19–21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19, 20.​

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2. The Holy Scriptures, or the Word of God written, consist of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. These are:​

THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.​

THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.​

All of these are given by the inspiration of God to be the standard of faith and life.5​

5 2 Timothy 3:16.​

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3. The books commonly called the Apocrypha were not given by divine inspiration and so are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures. Therefore, they have no authority for the church of God and are not to be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings.6​

6 Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2.​

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4. The authority of the Holy Scriptures obligates belief in them. This authority does not depend on the testimony of any person or church but on God the author alone, who is truth itself. Therefore, the Scriptures are to be received because they are the Word of God.7​

7 2 Peter 1:19–21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9.​

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5. The testimony of the church of God may stir and persuade us to adopt a high and reverent respect for the Holy Scriptures. Moreover, the heavenliness of the contents, the power of the system of truth, the majesty of the style, the harmony of all the parts, the central focus on giving all glory to God, the full revelation of the only way of salvation, and many other incomparable qualities and complete perfections, all provide abundant evidence that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Even so, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority of the Scriptures comes from the internal work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.8​

8 John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10–12; 1 John 2:20, 27.​

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6. The whole counsel of God concerning everything essential for his own glory and man’s salvation, faith, and life is either explicitly stated or by necessary inference contained in the Holy Scriptures. Nothing is ever to be added to the Scriptures, either by new revelation of the Spirit or by human traditions.9​

Nevertheless, we acknowledge that the inward illumination of the Spirit of God is necessary for a saving understanding of what is revealed in the Word.10 We recognize that some circumstances concerning the worship of God and government of the church are common to human actions and organizations and are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian wisdom, following the general rules of the Word, which must always be observed.11​

9 2 Timothy 3:15–17; Galatians 1:8,9. 10 John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9–12. 11 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40.​

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7. Some things in Scripture are clearer than others, and some people understand the teachings more clearly than others.12 However, the things that must be known, believed, and obeyed for salvation are so clearly set forth and explained in one part of Scripture or another that both the educated and uneducated may achieve a sufficient understanding of them by properly using ordinary measures.13​

12 2 Peter 3:16. 13 Psalm 19:7; Psalm 119:130.​

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8. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the native language of the ancient people of God.14 The New Testament was written in Greek, which at the time it was written was most widely known to the nations. These Testaments were inspired directly by God and by his unique care and providence were kept pure down through the ages. They are therefore true and authoritative a, so that in all religious controversies the church must make their ultimate appeal to them.15 All God’s people have a right to and a claim on the Scriptures and are commanded in the fear of God to read16 and search them.17 Not all of God’s people know these original languages, so the Scriptures are to be translated into the common language of every nation to which they come.18 In this way the Word of God may dwell richly in all, so that they may worship him in an acceptable manner and through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19​

a authentical​

14 Romans 3:2. 15 Isaiah 8:20. 16 Acts 15:15. 17 John 5:39. 18 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28. 19 Colossians 3:16.​

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9. The infallible rule for interpreting Scripture is the Scripture itself. Therefore, when there is a question about the true and full meaning c of any part of Scripture (and each passage has only one meaning, not many), it must be understood in light of other passages that speak more clearly.20​

c sense​

20 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16.​

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10. The supreme judge for deciding all religious controversies and for evaluating all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, human teachings, and individual interpretations d, and in whose judgment we are to rest, is nothing but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit. In this Scripture our faith finds its final word.21​

d private spirits​

21 Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23.​

[Sounds like Sola Scriptura to me ... and before 1900]

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Indeed, that is Sola Scriptura, and that is also not what I was talking about. I was talking about the extremist view of Nuda Scriptura that challenges the propriety of having a catechism or a Statement of Faith such as the one you quoted. Basically the “No creed but Christ” movement, albeit taken to much more of an extreme than the Stone/Campbell Movement.

Baptists are clearly a Sola Scriptura family of denominations, rather than a Nuda Scriptura movement, in that they give primacy to Scripture while having their own tradition of distinctives, such as the use of congregational polity and Baptism by full immersion, and historically, some distinct practices concerning church music, and in some cases, extra-Biblical beliefs like Landmarkism.

Fervent said:

That's great to hear, and there's nothing really wrong with a house church model but that doesn't make other governmental structures invalid or without their place within the broader Christian mission. While house churches create an intimate bond the larger denominational models are able to more effectively pool resources which is also needed. To claim that the Biblical model is the house church model is to say more than the evidence allows in its favor.

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I am of the opinion we have a lot more resources than we need to do the job. This same western missionary went to the house of one house church leader to meet his two sons who wanted to do mission work, which the missionary had experience doing and felt he could help them be good missionaries. They had picked out a spot in China far from where they lived and it had no know Christians, which my western missionary friend thought was almost too ambitious, but loved their spirit and went into explaining how to get support for such venture (thinking it would take years). These two young men were only months away from leaving and their support was just enough money to get them there (a one-way trip). My missionary friend was shocked and gave them all the money he had, his watch and prayed over them.

Fervent said:

I get that, but as someone who believes in a form of "sola scriptura" I find it important to distinguish between it and the modern understanding that has gone too far to the other extreme and attempts to drive a wedge between Christian history and the Bible not only in responding to people who hold such beliefs but also in responding to Catholic and Orthodox polemics that try to place an exclusive claim on history for their "church."

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I don’t see any Catholics or Orthodox putting scare quotes around references to other churches in this denomination, and I would politely request you not do so in regard to us. Particularly in light of the fact that there are many such as myself who are extremely ecumenically oriented and who desire full communion with certain similar churches, such as High Church continuing Anglicans, Evangelical Catholic Lutherans, and the Roman Catholics, as a matter of some urgency.

Indeed there are i think very few Catholic or Orthodox on this forum who are devoid of at least some interest in ecumenical dialogue, for there exist forums elsewhere that are specifically or primarily for Catholics or Orthodox

bling said:

I am of the opinion we have a lot more resources than we need to do the job. This same western missionary went to the house of one house church leader to meet his two sons who wanted to do mission work, which the missionary had experience doing and felt he could help them be good missionaries. They had picked out a spot in China far from where they lived and it had no know Christians, which my western missionary friend thought was almost too ambitious, but loved their spirit and went into explaining how to get support for such venture (thinking it would take years). These two young men were only months away from leaving and their support was just enough money to get them there (a one-way trip). My missionary friend was shocked and gave them all the money he had, his watch and prayed over them.

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That's certainly a possiblity, but the history of missions is littered with missionaries who weren't prudent about the risks/resources necessary and seemingly failed because of it. Denominational resources still are an asset to mission more often than they are a hindrance.

The Liturgist said:

I don’t see any Catholics or Orthodox putting scare quotes around references to other churches in this denomination, and I would politely request you not do so in regard to us. Particularly in light of the fact that there are many such as myself who are extremely ecumenically oriented and who desire full communion with certain similar churches, such as High Church continuing Anglicans, Evangelical Catholic Lutherans, and the Roman Catholics, as a matter of some urgency.

Indeed there are i think very few Catholic or Orthodox on this forum who are devoid of at least some interest in ecumenical dialogue, for there exist forums elsewhere that are specifically or primarily for Catholics or Orthodox

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I didn't mean an offense by it, I have the highest respect for the Orthodox and find myself far more often in agreement with Orthodox theology than most protestant denominations, excepting ecclesiology. The centrality of ecclesiology in that instance was why I used scare quotes, not as a means of questioning the legitimacy of the institutions beyond the disagreements in faith.

atpollard said:

I just could not accept the Tradition/Church Authority explanation for the discrepancy that I saw between what I read in the Bible and what the Church taught (mostly surrounding the Mariology doctrines).

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Interesting, I've never come across a conflict between the Bible and Catholic Church teachings in all of my years of study.

Xeno.of.athens said:

It is wonderful to hear of persecuted Christians working together to keep the faith alive and to spread it. Yet what happens under persecution is exceptional, and people who really have differences set them aside to face the greater threat. But once the danger is passed and they can return to themselves and the things that matter to them beyond the core of beliefs that were endangered under persecution, those people will return to their distinct beliefs and to their separate fellowship groups. Persecution causes a kind of unity but not quite the unity that is needed when the gospel is not under threat by an atheist communist government or any other government that persecutes.

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In China (a place I am most formular with) 99% of the Christians have never been totally away from persecution, so that is all they know. Eight to sixteen years ago the persecution was weaker for a while, but commentaries were still band, but otherwise in some cities the communist just did not bother them, the communist just wanted growth and to stay in power. Even during these lite persecution times Christians in the unregistered churches were breaking the law. The unity is based on the published communist list of what cannot be taught, so that is what they teach.

Xeno.of.athens said:

So their catechism is invisible and they must make do with what they can smuggle into China or that other can smuggle in for them. God grant them times of peace soon, and a land more religiously free than it is today.

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The Communist early on saw all the good ethics, loyalty, concern for others and morals in the Bible and actually encouraged people to read it. They eventually printed 90 million Bibles and sold the at a fraction of the cost (around $2.00 at the last printing) at all registered churches, but the unregistered Christians might pay more to get the Bible from a registered Christian. They use to be able to buy online, more modern translations, but that was outlawed a few years ago, the Communist printing was in classical Chinese.
It is felt now that there are 175 million each week attending unregistered house Churches each Sunday, which is much more then we have in the USA attending church. It is an amazing story, since before the bamboo curtain went up there were only estimated to be 2 million Christians in China and the Communist sent all the Christian leadership (males) to reeducation camps and never seen again. Instead of vanishing, women met in caves along the coast and grew these gatherings add men along the way, by developing house churches (or we might say the Spirit grew the number through living in and through these women, whom we will never know the names of, in this life).
Do they need more religious freedom to become like us (Better?)?

bling said:

The Communist early on saw all the good ethics, loyalty, concern for others and morals in the Bible and actually encouraged people to read it. They eventually printed 90 million Bibles and sold the at a fraction of the cost (around $2.00 at the last printing) at all registered churches, but the unregistered Christians might pay more to get the Bible from a registered Christian. They use to be able to buy online, more modern translations, but that was outlawed a few years ago, the Communist printing was in classical Chinese.
It is felt now that there are 175 million each week attending unregistered house Churches each Sunday, which is much more then we have in the USA attending church. It is an amazing story, since before the bamboo curtain went up there were only estimated to be 2 million Christians in China and the Communist sent all the Christian leadership (males) to reeducation camps and never seen again. Instead of vanishing, women met in caves along the coast and grew these gatherings add men along the way, by developing house churches (or we might say the Spirit grew the number through living in and through these women, whom we will never know the names of, in this life).
Do they need more religious freedom to become like us (Better?)?

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The Chinese people need, and deserve, religious freedom. They may be getting by in house churches, but many would be happier being able to worship publically in a large traditional church such as those that have become the main form of religious expression in South Korea. And frankly, 175 million people out of a population of a billion, while good, is still suboptimal, and pales in comparison to the number of Chinese who still practice various aspects of traditional Chinese folk religion, Confucianism and Buddhism.

And furthermore, the house church model is a hindrance to the normal operation of several traditional churches which are either banned in China, like the Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, or that have been separated through state-imposed schism from the rest, for example, the Roman Catholics.

I find the argument regarding the supposed superiority of house churches to be wrong, insensitive and insofar as it suggests that we in the free world would be better off worshipping under such adverse conditions, absurd, given that such a scenario would deprive us of the considerable evangelical power of church architecture. You seem to not appreciate how much, for most Christians, being able to see their church and easily find it, and also being able to identify a public church or chapel based on its appearance, means. In Greece in addition to churches being visually obvious there are large numbers of tiny chapels on the road, decorated like miniature Orthodox Churches, placed along the beaches, in parks, and even in the main airport in Athens, chapels which provide a quiet place for Christians to pray and which are convenient. In China, not only are such chapels illegal, but also simply quietly praying in public is illegal, and venturing into a state-run church, or even a mosque or a Taoist/traditional Chinese temple, is a good way to get placed under the observation of the secret police.

It also seems probable that large numbers of the house churches are known to the authorities and I fear a crackdown by Xi Jinping is likely, and the evil CCP has demonstrated it has the power to crack down on religious groups - look at what it did to the Falun Gong following that group daring to conduct a non-violent demonstration outside the party headquarters in Peking.*.

Thus, my position is to pray for the safety of all Chinese Christians, and to pray that soon the CCP will collapse and the majority of them will be able to worship openly, in church buildings and in public rather than having to practice their religion in houses, which is a scenario I actively fear could become the reality in some Western countries, given how the majority of Christians believe truths which are deeply unpopular among the general public, for example, that homosexuality is immoral.

*I feel morally compelled to use the old Wade-Giles system when referring to Chinese cities in order to avoid giving the CCP, which popularized the Pinyin system of translation, even the subtle victory of causing the capital to be referred to as “Beijing.”

The Liturgist said:

The Chinese people need, and deserve, religious freedom. They may be getting by in house churches, but many would be happier being able to worship publically in a large traditional church such as those that have become the main form of religious expression in South Korea. And frankly, 175 million people out of a population of a billion, while good, is still suboptimal, and pales in comparison to the number of Chinese who still practice various aspects of traditional Chinese folk religion, Confucianism and Buddhism.

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The thing about 175 million is the fact it has grown rapidly form less than 2 million 60 years ago. It has been doubling in size every 3 years, so if they kept up that pace in 15 years they will run out of people on earth (all 10 billion would be Christian). The method of growth has been continued training of disciple makers and splitting the group every time it reaches a full house about 40 at max.
The Chinese people are not following "folk religions", but are for the most part learning only atheism, where are you getting the information about their religious believes?

The Liturgist said:

And furthermore, the house church model is a hindrance to the normal operation of several traditional churches which are either banned in China, like the Orthodox, Lutherans and Anglicans, or that have been separated through state-imposed schism from the rest, for example, the Roman Catholics.

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It is not the unregistered house churches hindering other religions, but the Government has outlawed them.

The Liturgist said:

I find the argument regarding the supposed superiority of house churches to be wrong, insensitive and insofar as it suggests that we in the free world would be better off worshipping under such adverse conditions, absurd, given that such a scenario would deprive us of the considerable evangelical power of church architecture. You seem to not appreciate how much, for most Christians, being able to see their church and easily find it, and also being able to identify a public church or chapel based on its appearance, means. In Greece in addition to churches being visually obvious there are large numbers of tiny chapels on the road, decorated like miniature Orthodox Churches, placed along the beaches, in parks, and even in the main airport in Athens, chapels which provide a quiet place for Christians to pray and which are convenient. In China, not only are such chapels illegal, but also simply quietly praying in public is illegal, and venturing into a state-run church, or even a mosque or a Taoist/traditional Chinese temple, is a good way to get placed under the observation of the secret police.

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They have set up camaras in most of the registered churches, so people have quit attending them.
The church is the people and not the buildings.
The Chinese Christians get together more than just once a week, these house churches ae their extended family.
I asked about the fact they were not even taking up a collection on Sundays and they said, "no one has money". I asked how they were caring for the family of the member in jail for being a Christian and they said "we take care of family", (his family was their family).

The Liturgist said:

It also seems probable that large numbers of the house churches are known to the authorities and I fear a crackdown by Xi Jinping is likely, and the evil CCP has demonstrated it has the power to crack down on religious groups - look at what it did to the Falun Gong following that group daring to conduct a non-violent demonstration outside the party headquarters in Peking.*.

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I had a Western Christian friend with a chronic illness going to a wonderful doctor in China for a year, before the doctor told her he was a Christian also, she knew he was only a very caring person up until then.
It is a long story, ten years ago, I was part of a group meeting with Chinese government delegates for religion in China looking to allow the register churches more freedom and training them at the Dallas Seminary since it was nondenominational. They were opening up wanting to register the unregistered churches, but Iwas not encouraging the members in China to trust them or give any information (which I am glade I did.
The unregistered churches I know do not allow anyone who has not been believer baptized emersed and have a real friendship with a member to know where they meet.

The Liturgist said:

Thus, my position is to pray for the safety of all Chinese Christians, and to pray that soon the CCP will collapse and the majority of them will be able to worship openly, in church buildings and in public rather than having to practice their religion in houses, which is a scenario I actively fear could become the reality in some Western countries, given how the majority of Christians believe truths which are deeply unpopular among the general public, for example, that homosexuality is immoral.

*I feel morally compelled to use the old Wade-Giles system when referring to Chinese cities in order to avoid giving the CCP, which popularized the Pinyin system of translation, even the subtle victory of causing the capital to be referred to as “Beijing.”

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Xeno.of.athens said:

Perhaps the unregistered churches intend no hinderance - being the creation of necessity rather than of inter-church rivalry - but may it not be an unintended consequence of these essentially independent churches, that survive on the well meaning smugglers and well meaning Chinese illegal printing groups as well as hand written texts gleaned from the scares sources in the hands of individuals, that they end up promoting doctrines and practises that are, from an Orthodox and a Catholic perspective, illicit and heretical, and thus hinder the growth of licit and orthodox Catholic and Orthodox faith communities? Of course, similar comments could be made regarding what would be, from a Baptist or a Presbyterian and so forth perspective, licit and orthodox faith groups?

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Where have you heard about: “well meaning smugglers and well meaning Chinese illegal printing groups as well as hand written texts gleaned from the scares sources in the hands of individuals, that they end up promoting doctrines and practices”?

They did for 8 years legally order on line modern Chinese translations of the Bible, but I have not heard of them smuggling in someone’s denominational material or an individual spreading a false doctrine. I had only one friend ten years ago (when the Communist were less interested in Christians), teaching all night to a group of 100 house church leaders. He spent all night talking about all the books of the Old Testament, which the Chinese house leaders know the least about. Other missionary friends were not trying to pitch some denominational doctrine, but answer personal questions in a few hours with individuals it is hard to find a “group” to meet with, for security reasons. There is no setting up a six-month study on doctrine, because the Communist would learn about that.

Think about it: The house church method of having every individual being trained to do the evangelizing individually and also become a leader, since as the grow they split on average every three years, will not fit an orthodox, Catholic, and even most denominational Wester churches system. Can you come up with another growth design that would work under severe Communist persecution?

The “allowed” Catholic group in China (which the Roman Catholic do not approve of) is not growing and they are starting to put camaras in their buildings, so I expect a decrease in attendance.

Xeno.of.athens said:

From one of them, a Pentecostal lady, now deceased, a very close friend who I loved dearly, and she smuggled in bibles and books in the 1990s.

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The Bibles were of great use, but I do not know what might have happened to the other "books", the Communists alone printed and sold 90 million bibles and there were millions of Bibles ordered or smuggled in besides the ones print in China, so a few even hundred books would not be much of an influence and maybe they were all OK and the Spirit allowed them. Did she consider these "books" to be equivalent with scripture?

Xeno.of.athens said:

The topic is not a question. It's an exclamation. My catechism is very green indeed.

But what do I mean by green?

Well, on a superficial level, my catechism's cover is green leatherette, slightly firm but soft to the touch. So that's one way in which it is green.
And, it is green like an oasis in a dry land. By which I mean it is a place of theological rest and comfort in a surrounding landscape of dry and barren theology.
Also, it is green like a traffic light telling me to go! To go forth and speak of Jesus Christ, bible in hand, catechism on my phone, it is a missionary document.

It's also the same height and width as my New Catholic Bible, which is the bible I use for the liturgy, which is a useful feature. The same is true of my Sunday missal, and my weekday missal, and also true of the Divine office, and morning & evening prayer. Somebody planned this, despite coming from several publishers.

It is, of course, also the mainstay of Catholic teaching in Catechumen classes and plays a significant role in many a Catholic's life and prayers.

Mine looks like this:

It isn't as big as that photo suggests. It's about 4" wide and 6" tall. It cost $10 when I bought it, but I've seen copies on ebay for $50 and more, so some people are making a profit out of it.

Its content is available online without charge here -> Catechism of the Catholic Church


So, why is this post here, in General Theology? Well, mainly to encourage folk here to share what they use as a theological help in their bible reading and in evangelism. What book or books shape your beliefs and practises?

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Most catechisms reflect light of the wavelength between 495-570 nm, commonly referred to green in the optical range of EM radiation.


JK. Walking myself out.

AlexB23 said:

Most catechisms reflect light of the wavelength between 495-570 nm, commonly referred to green in the optical range of EM radiation.


JK. Walking myself out.

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Cue rimshot.