How green is my Catechism.

[bling]

She was Pentecostal, so I think not, she regarded them as useful teaching.

But you've sidestepped the issue really. She was one among many who smuggled in bibles and books. The influence was there and still is because some still do smuggle such materials in today.

As long as those receiving these "books" do not look upon them as, God's inspired writing and see them as a person's opinion, they are used to lots of opinions, but will look to scripture to judge the value of a person's opinion. The Communist are highly against Western influence (religious books from the West) yet tolerate people having the Bible (as of right now), so it would not be good to be caught with a banded book and really bad if you were distributing them. I have not heard of "band books" being distributed or any consolidated effort to get some particular denomination doctrine books into China.
The house churches I know of feel blessed to have Bibles for everyone.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As long as those receiving these "books" do not look upon them as, God's inspired writing

You write the above as a non-denominational protestant, which is exactly the thing that was discussed as an influence that "Orthodox and Catholic Christians see as an unorthodox influence that doesn't promote growth in ancient church communities."

 

[bling]

You write the above as a non-denominational protestant, which is exactly the thing that was discussed as an influence that "Orthodox and Catholic Christians see as un unorthodox influence that doesn't promote growth in ancient church communities."

I have been discussing rapid Christianity growth in China, using only the Bible. Right now, all denominations are withering in the West, so can you really "blame" non-denominational churches for Catholic and Orthodox churches withering in number? There is this huge growing number of "nones" all Christians need to be trying to convert, so there is no reason to mess with each other. Yes, I do talk with Catholics and Orthodox members, but they have for the most part quit going to their home churches. I used to have an ecumenical group of 40 men meeting at my house each week for a Bible study and really wanted them to go where they could do the best, which most likely was their home church.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have been discussing rapid Christianity growth in China, using only the Bible. Right now, all denominations are withering in the West, so can you really "blame" non-denominational churches for Catholic and Orthodox churches withering in number? There is this huge growing number of "nones" all Christians need to be trying to convert, so there is no reason to mess with each other. Yes, I do talk with Catholics and Orthodox members, but they have for the most part quit going to their home churches. I used to have an ecumenical group of 40 men meeting at my house each week for a Bible study and really wanted them to go where they could do the best, which most likely was their home church.

Actually the Orthodox Church is thriving in the West, and its also thriving in the East, and indeed the only Orthodox church in North America that is having problems with membership is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which has a lot of problems due to mismanagement by the politically minded archbishop and in general much of the Constantinopolitan hierarchy. And these losses in the Greek church are compensated by growth in the others, especially the Antiochian Orthodox and ROCOR, and also on the Oriental Orthodox side, well, pretty much all of them (Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, Armenian). The Assyrian Church of the East is also growing.

I really seriously doubt you actually spoke with any Orthodox; you might think you did, but I suspect you spoke with Roman Catholics of the Western Rite, which has experienced membership loss, due to a combination of bad liberal bishops and the impact of the sex scandal, except in the traditional Latin Mass parishes, which Pope Francis is stupidly trying to kill off. However, many of the Eastern Catholic Churches such as the Maronites, Chaldeans and Melkites are growing, and most of them are stable in membership.

Really the only denominational churches which are experiencing a severe membership loss are the liberal mainline churches (like the UMC, PCUSA, ELCA and especially the UCC, which has hemorrhaged members in the past 30 years.

I would also note that non-denominational churches are known to be experiencing membership decline at the same rate as the Roman Catholics and at a faster rate than the Greek Orthodox. They are failing to attract the youth, who are drawn to traditional liturgical worship in ever-increasing numbers. And this is something I am happy about, because as I see it the non-denominational churches were only enabled by weakness of the mainline Protestant churches, but as fast-growing traditional alternatives to those like the Continuing Anglicans, the LCMS, and others come online, those churches are siphoning off members. This is good from my perspective because of my belief in the destructive impact of praise and worship music and CCM more generally, and my belief in the importance of a return to solemn liturgical worship that glorifies God through beauty, reverence and holiness, and unfortunately, those churches which identify as non-denominational tend overwhelmingly to promote praise and worship music and CCM.

And consider the damage that will be done in China if the house churches stop growing, which could well happen if they fail to follow proper doctrine and liturgy and attach themselves to the richness of traditional Christianity. The CCP would have a field day with that. I don’t want the CCP to have a field day with anything; I want to see Xi Jinping and the rest of the Party leadership locked up in The Hague for war crimes, violating the treaty with the UK over Hong Kong by violating the rights of HK citizens, and crimes against humanity for the genocide against the Uighur people, the Falun Gong religion, and of course the Christians, especially the Orthodox Christians who were exterminated in mainland China in a genocidal act under Mao during the Cultural Revolution.

 

[bling]

Actually the Orthodox Church is thriving in the West, and its also thriving in the East, and indeed the only Orthodox church in North America that is having problems with membership is the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which has a lot of problems due to mismanagement by the politically minded archbishop and in general much of the Constantinopolitan hierarchy. And these losses in the Greek church are compensated by growth in the others, especially the Antiochian Orthodox and ROCOR, and also on the Oriental Orthodox side, well, pretty much all of them (Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, Armenian). The Assyrian Church of the East is also growing.

I really seriously doubt you actually spoke with any Orthodox; you might think you did, but I suspect you spoke with Roman Catholics of the Western Rite, which has experienced membership loss, due to a combination of bad liberal bishops and the impact of the sex scandal, except in the traditional Latin Mass parishes, which Pope Francis is stupidly trying to kill off. However, many of the Eastern Catholic Churches such as the Maronites, Chaldeans and Melkites are growing, and most of them are stable in membership.

Really the only denominational churches which are experiencing a severe membership loss are the liberal mainline churches (like the UMC, PCUSA, ELCA and especially the UCC, which has hemorrhaged members in the past 30 years.

I would also note that non-denominational churches are known to be experiencing membership decline at the same rate as the Roman Catholics and at a faster rate than the Greek Orthodox. They are failing to attract the youth, who are drawn to traditional liturgical worship in ever-increasing numbers. And this is something I am happy about, because as I see it the non-denominational churches were only enabled by weakness of the mainline Protestant churches, but as fast-growing traditional alternatives to those like the Continuing Anglicans, the LCMS, and others come online, those churches are siphoning off members. This is good from my perspective because of my belief in the destructive impact of praise and worship music and CCM more generally, and my belief in the importance of a return to solemn liturgical worship that glorifies God through beauty, reverence and holiness, and unfortunately, those churches which identify as non-denominational tend overwhelmingly to promote praise and worship music and CCM.

And consider the damage that will be done in China if the house churches stop growing, which could well happen if they fail to follow proper doctrine and liturgy and attach themselves to the richness of traditional Christianity. The CCP would have a field day with that. I don’t want the CCP to have a field day with anything; I want to see Xi Jinping and the rest of the Party leadership locked up in The Hague for war crimes, violating the treaty with the UK over Hong Kong by violating the rights of HK citizens, and crimes against humanity for the genocide against the Uighur people, the Falun Gong religion, and of course the Christians, especially the Orthodox Christians who were exterminated in mainland China in a genocidal act under Mao during the Cultural Revolution.

Google said: Yet despite these increases in absolute numbers, Orthodox Christians have been declining as a share of the overall Christian population – and the global population – due to far faster growth among Protestants, Catholics and non-Christians.

Alexei D. Krindatch, national coordinator of the U.S. Census of Orthodox Christian Churches, said the practicing Eastern Orthodox population in the U.S. was 675,000 in 2020, down from 816,000 a decade earlier, and most parishes lost members after the outbreak of the pandemic.

I did not say I got my information from talking to members.

It is nice to know the Orthodox church is growing, but it is starting from only 675,000 in the USA.

I ask: Can you come up with another growth design that would work for an Orthodox Church in China under severe Communist persecution?

The unregistered Church in China has shown the fastest growth under severe persecution, so what specifically could happen to stop their growth?

I know little about the Orthodox Church, but does it support Putin, the Chinese Communist consider Putin to be a hero?

 

[The Liturgist]

D. Krindatch, national coordinator of the U.S. Census of Orthodox Christian Churches, said the practicing Eastern Orthodox population in the U.S. was 675,000 in 2020, down from 816,000 a decade earlier, and most parishes lost members after the outbreak of the pandemic.

Which Orthodox churches? Any data which includes the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese will be skewed. If you look at the Oriental Orthodox only, you will see an increase over 2010 due to the high birthrate and immigration. The same is true of the Assyrian Church of the East. Neither of these groups would be counted by an Eastern Orthodox survey, whereas the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which is contracting for reasons I explained, as well as related denominations such as the American Carpatho-Rusyn Archdiocese, which suffers in my opinion from having a Greek bishop rather than a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop (ethnocentrism is one of the major problems with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, particularly the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, much more so than in the UK, where Metropolitan Kallistos Ware persuaded many British people to join and was himself English). Furthermore, such a survey would not count the members of the Old Calendarist churches, which have received many disaffected Greek Orthodox Christians from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, but are not regarded as canonical.

Furthermore, the pandemic hit everyone equally, so your inclusion of that is further distorting the statistics. Also, in the Orthodox Church most parishioners are not members. Members are limited to those who donate to the parish and vote in elections for parish offices. You can be a member of the Orthodox Church and a parishioner at a specific parish without being a member of the parish. Indeed at most Orthodox parishes, the paying members are a minority of the total parishioners, and it is actually a sign of bad health if most or all of the attendees are also members (conversely, it is also bad if very few are members). And I would expect parish membership to be down, since the economy has been plunged into chaos and people don’t have the money to donate that they had before the pandemic. But to summarize: in Orthodoxy, membership in a parish implies a specific financial commitment to the running of the parish; it does not equate to being a parishioner, whereas in many Protestant churches, anyone who joins a parish is counted a member of that parish.

As far as Google saying that the Catholics and Protestants are growing faster, that’s pure nonsense. I doubt Google itself said that, but rather you clicked on a polemic link that said that. It is well known that the mainline Protestant and the Roman Catholic Church have lost members at a time when most Orthodox Churches have gained members. The only Christians who for the time are growing faster than the Orthodox are the Pentecostals, and it is expected that the main clash in the future will be between the Orthodox and other liturgical churches and the Pentecostals.

But let us say for a moment that the Catholics and traditional Protestants were growing faster than the Orthodox, which they aren’t, but if we pretend that’s true, my point still stands, in that from the perspective of the Catholics and the largest Protestant denominations, namely the Anglicans, Lutherans and Reformed (in that order), the preferential status of house churches is problematic in that it represents the spreading of potential heresy. There is an immediate need for missionaries who will provide the house churches in China with theological guidance and ensure that they follow the doctrines of traditional Christianity, as exemplified by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Moravians and related denominations.

Also it disturbs me that you continue to ignore the horror of the genocide perpetrated against the Orthodox Christians in China, who represented one of the largest denominations, but were wiped out because Mao became suspicious of them after he fell out with the Soviet Union (nevermind the fact that the Chinese Orthodox Church is not a part of the Moscow Patriarchate but the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which was fiercely anti-communist; that is perhaps the real reason the Orthodox got purged). In Harbin there is a beautiful Orthodox church which survives as a museum. It is my prayer that the Divine Liturgy once more is celebrated therein.

Meanwhile, in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, the Chinese Orthodox Church is thriving, and it is also doing well in Korea and Japan, where, as stated previously, the main competition tends to be Pentecostals and other Charismatics.

In addition, in Brazil, which has a substantial Chinese expatriate community, the Polish Orthodox Church has been growing rapidly; whereas the Russians, Syrians and Greeks accounted for the majority of Eastern Orthodox growth in the US, and the Copts, Assyrians and Armenians for the Oriental Orthodox growth, in Brazil, it is the Polish Orthodox Church which is doing most of the evangelization (due to a historical oddity, the Portuguese Orthodox Church, which has since broken away from communion with the Polish church and become non-canonical, however, the Brazilian parishes remained a part of the Polish church.

 

[bling]

Which Orthodox churches? Any data which includes the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese will be skewed. If you look at the Oriental Orthodox only, you will see an increase over 2010 due to the high birthrate and immigration. The same is true of the Assyrian Church of the East. Neither of these groups would be counted by an Eastern Orthodox survey, whereas the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, which is contracting for reasons I explained, as well as related denominations such as the American Carpatho-Rusyn Archdiocese, which suffers in my opinion from having a Greek bishop rather than a Carpatho-Rusyn bishop (ethnocentrism is one of the major problems with the Patriarchate of Constantinople, particularly the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, much more so than in the UK, where Metropolitan Kallistos Ware persuaded many British people to join and was himself English). Furthermore, such a survey would not count the members of the Old Calendarist churches, which have received many disaffected Greek Orthodox Christians from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, but are not regarded as canonical.

Furthermore, the pandemic hit everyone equally, so your inclusion of that is further distorting the statistics. Also, in the Orthodox Church most parishioners are not members. Members are limited to those who donate to the parish and vote in elections for parish offices. You can be a member of the Orthodox Church and a parishioner at a specific parish without being a member of the parish. Indeed at most Orthodox parishes, the paying members are a minority of the total parishioners, and it is actually a sign of bad health if most or all of the attendees are also members (conversely, it is also bad if very few are members). And I would expect parish membership to be down, since the economy has been plunged into chaos and people don’t have the money to donate that they had before the pandemic. But to summarize: in Orthodoxy, membership in a parish implies a specific financial commitment to the running of the parish; it does not equate to being a parishioner, whereas in many Protestant churches, anyone who joins a parish is counted a member of that parish.

As far as Google saying that the Catholics and Protestants are growing faster, that’s pure nonsense. I doubt Google itself said that, but rather you clicked on a polemic link that said that. It is well known that the mainline Protestant and the Roman Catholic Church have lost members at a time when most Orthodox Churches have gained members. The only Christians who for the time are growing faster than the Orthodox are the Pentecostals, and it is expected that the main clash in the future will be between the Orthodox and other liturgical churches and the Pentecostals.

But let us say for a moment that the Catholics and traditional Protestants were growing faster than the Orthodox, which they aren’t, but if we pretend that’s true, my point still stands, in that from the perspective of the Catholics and the largest Protestant denominations, namely the Anglicans, Lutherans and Reformed (in that order), the preferential status of house churches is problematic in that it represents the spreading of potential heresy. There is an immediate need for missionaries who will provide the house churches in China with theological guidance and ensure that they follow the doctrines of traditional Christianity, as exemplified by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Moravians and related denominations.

Also it disturbs me that you continue to ignore the horror of the genocide perpetrated against the Orthodox Christians in China, who represented one of the largest denominations, but were wiped out because Mao became suspicious of them after he fell out with the Soviet Union (nevermind the fact that the Chinese Orthodox Church is not a part of the Moscow Patriarchate but the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, which was fiercely anti-communist; that is perhaps the real reason the Orthodox got purged). In Harbin there is a beautiful Orthodox church which survives as a museum. It is my prayer that the Divine Liturgy once more is celebrated therein.

Meanwhile, in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, the Chinese Orthodox Church is thriving, and it is also doing well in Korea and Japan, where, as stated previously, the main competition tends to be Pentecostals and other Charismatics.

In addition, in Brazil, which has a substantial Chinese expatriate community, the Polish Orthodox Church has been growing rapidly; whereas the Russians, Syrians and Greeks accounted for the majority of Eastern Orthodox growth in the US, and the Copts, Assyrians and Armenians for the Oriental Orthodox growth, in Brazil, it is the Polish Orthodox Church which is doing most of the evangelization (due to a historical oddity, the Portuguese Orthodox Church, which has since broken away from communion with the Polish church and become non-canonical, however, the Brazilian parishes remained a part of the Polish church.

This is interesting and informative, but:

How am I doing this: “you continue to ignore the horror of the genocide perpetrated against the Orthodox Christians in China”. All the religious leaders were sent to “re-educational camps” and never seen again. It was the women and wives left behind from all the denominations, that went into caves along the coast and started teaching Christianity in secret and in small groups. They had only the Bible, since all western books were burned. It is miraculous in a way how they all then and all today teach the same doctrine, but we can thank God for that. The Communist came out and published a long list of what the registered churches could not teach and made it public. You were breaking the law for teach any one of these believes on the list, so they taught all the believes on the list. This included: Jesus being God’s son, Christ going the cross for our sins, Christ rising from the grave, communion, adult believer immersion baptism, and so on. The Bible was allowed and the communist printed over 90 million, but other religious Christian books were band.

You say there is this: “immediate need for missionaries who will provide the house churches in China with theological guidance and ensure that they follow the doctrines of traditional Christianity”, but for there to be an “immediate need”, there has to be a way for them to get to these 20 million house churches. At great risk we do illegally do zoom meetings and email a few in China. A medical doctor friend I secretly communicate with, was caught for being part of small protest many years ago and all though he was released from jail, the Communist continue to make his life very harsh, his workload is double, he spend hours in random inspections, and really cannot travel even close to the boarder.

You say: “the preferential status of house churches is problematic in that it represents the spreading of potential heresy” How does the house church have preferential status, they are also against the law? These independent House Churches using only the Bible, making it almost impossible to spread “heresy”. Suppose satan did take control of a person, how can that person become a huge influence over independent house Churches? These House Church leaders have God’s Love to compel them to do good, but what would be their incentive to risk their lives without pay to teach a false doctrine to twenty people?