How green is my Catechism.

[Fervent]

Where are you finding: "but the assemblies were of every Christian in the city when the Lord's Supper was taken and in some of the cities they were large gatherings."

It comes from a variety of evidences, from the gathering at pentecost and the descriptions in Acts 2-4, to the circumstances that led to the creation of deacons in Acts 7, to the fact that Paul's letters were addressed to believers in the entire city and not simply house churches. There certainly were small house churches that were tight-knit, but there also was a larger regular public assembly and table fellowship.

 

[Fervent]

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith​

Chapter 1 – The Holy Scriptures​

1. The Holy Scriptures are the only sufficient, certain, and infallible standard of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.1 The light of nature and the works of creation and providence so clearly demonstrate the goodness, wisdom, and power of God that people are left without excuse; however, these demonstrations are not sufficient to give the knowledge of God and his will that is necessary for salvation.2 Therefore, the Lord was pleased at different times and in various ways to reveal himself and to declare his will to his church.3 To preserve and propagate the truth better and to establish and comfort the church with greater certainty against the corruption of the flesh and the malice of Satan and the world, the Lord put this revelation completely in writing. Therefore, the Holy Scriptures are absolutely necessary, because God’s former ways of revealing his will to his people have now ceased.4​

1 2 Timothy 3:15–17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20. 2 Romans 1:19–21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalm 19:1–3. 3 Hebrews 1:1. 4 Proverbs 22:19–21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19, 20.​

​

2. The Holy Scriptures, or the Word of God written, consist of all the books of the Old and New Testaments. These are:​

THE OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi.​

THE NEW TESTAMENT: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation.​

All of these are given by the inspiration of God to be the standard of faith and life.5​

5 2 Timothy 3:16.​

​

3. The books commonly called the Apocrypha were not given by divine inspiration and so are not part of the canon or standard of the Scriptures. Therefore, they have no authority for the church of God and are not to be recognized or used in any way different from other human writings.6​

6 Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2.​

​

4. The authority of the Holy Scriptures obligates belief in them. This authority does not depend on the testimony of any person or church but on God the author alone, who is truth itself. Therefore, the Scriptures are to be received because they are the Word of God.7​

7 2 Peter 1:19–21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9.​

​

5. The testimony of the church of God may stir and persuade us to adopt a high and reverent respect for the Holy Scriptures. Moreover, the heavenliness of the contents, the power of the system of truth, the majesty of the style, the harmony of all the parts, the central focus on giving all glory to God, the full revelation of the only way of salvation, and many other incomparable qualities and complete perfections, all provide abundant evidence that the Scriptures are the Word of God. Even so, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority of the Scriptures comes from the internal work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.8​

8 John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10–12; 1 John 2:20, 27.​

​

6. The whole counsel of God concerning everything essential for his own glory and man’s salvation, faith, and life is either explicitly stated or by necessary inference contained in the Holy Scriptures. Nothing is ever to be added to the Scriptures, either by new revelation of the Spirit or by human traditions.9​

Nevertheless, we acknowledge that the inward illumination of the Spirit of God is necessary for a saving understanding of what is revealed in the Word.10 We recognize that some circumstances concerning the worship of God and government of the church are common to human actions and organizations and are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian wisdom, following the general rules of the Word, which must always be observed.11​

9 2 Timothy 3:15–17; Galatians 1:8,9. 10 John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9–12. 11 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26, 40.​

​

7. Some things in Scripture are clearer than others, and some people understand the teachings more clearly than others.12 However, the things that must be known, believed, and obeyed for salvation are so clearly set forth and explained in one part of Scripture or another that both the educated and uneducated may achieve a sufficient understanding of them by properly using ordinary measures.13​

12 2 Peter 3:16. 13 Psalm 19:7; Psalm 119:130.​

​

8. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the native language of the ancient people of God.14 The New Testament was written in Greek, which at the time it was written was most widely known to the nations. These Testaments were inspired directly by God and by his unique care and providence were kept pure down through the ages. They are therefore true and authoritative a, so that in all religious controversies the church must make their ultimate appeal to them.15 All God’s people have a right to and a claim on the Scriptures and are commanded in the fear of God to read16 and search them.17 Not all of God’s people know these original languages, so the Scriptures are to be translated into the common language of every nation to which they come.18 In this way the Word of God may dwell richly in all, so that they may worship him in an acceptable manner and through patience and the comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19​

a authentical​

14 Romans 3:2. 15 Isaiah 8:20. 16 Acts 15:15. 17 John 5:39. 18 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28. 19 Colossians 3:16.​

​

9. The infallible rule for interpreting Scripture is the Scripture itself. Therefore, when there is a question about the true and full meaning c of any part of Scripture (and each passage has only one meaning, not many), it must be understood in light of other passages that speak more clearly.20​

c sense​

20 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16.​

​

10. The supreme judge for deciding all religious controversies and for evaluating all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, human teachings, and individual interpretations d, and in whose judgment we are to rest, is nothing but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit. In this Scripture our faith finds its final word.21​

d private spirits​

21 Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23.​

[Sounds like Sola Scriptura to me ... and before 1900]

Seems a bit ironic having a common creed and confession of faith if there's a belief in nuda scriptura. Which is not the same thing as sola scriptura, which necessarily involves the tradition as a living witness to the Scriptures.

 

[bling]

It comes from a variety of evidences, from the gathering at pentecost and the descriptions in Acts 2-4, to the circumstances that led to the creation of deacons in Acts 7, to the fact that Paul's letters were addressed to believers in the entire city and not simply house churches. There certainly were small house churches that were tight-knit, but there also was a larger regular public assembly and table fellowship.

The temple in Jerusalem was huge and Christian Jews in large groups could meet there, until they started to be persecuted, but they met daily in houses. They seemed to take communion daily in the house churches to begin with: “Acts 2: 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,”. The breaking of bread is separated by the conjunction “and” from ate together, suggest separate acts. We do not find breaking of bread in masses greater than a house church, but it could have happened, but where?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

More like 1900 years. I am not even close to joking about this: the first ostensibly Nuda Scriptura denomination that I can think of is the Stone-Campbell Movement of the 19th century, except in a bizarre twist even they have distinct traditions, for example, weekly celebration of the Eucharist, which was unusual for Protestants in the 19th century, and the Christian Church / Disciples of Christ even has written liturgies.

Oh, and here’s a fun fact: the entire genre of Catechisms in the Question and Answer format was basically invented by Martin Luther. The Early Church did not use them, but rather had numerous other books of liturgy, church order, and dogmatic theology, and people joining the Early Church became Catechumens, and were prepared for Baptism through a formal tutelary process not greatly dissimilar to Sunday School. By Holy Week those ready to be baptized became Energumens, and they were baptized on Holy Saturday at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy while a series of Old Testament lessons that directly predict the passion and resurrection of Christ our true God were read.

This remains the practice to a large extent in the Orthodox and Assyrian churches, except in the case of certain similar churches where one can convert through profession of faith; likewise, in the case of the Catholic Church, an Orthodox or Assyrian Christian is usually received directly into the Eastern Catholic Church that most closely corresponds to their prior church. So a Russian Orthodox would become a Russian Greek Catholic, a Ukrainian Orthodox a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, a Syriac Orthodox would become a Syriac Catholic, a Coptic Orthodox would become a Coptic Catholic, and a member of the Assyrian or Ancient Church of the East would become a Chaldean Catholic.

Catholics practise a catechumenate consisting of tutelage with Catechists and sponsors until the time of the rite of election, at which time those who are ready and willing to be received into the Church become the Elect and a little while later they are received into the Church at the Easter Vigil mass during which the seven readings from the old testament lead to their baptism and confirmation (or confirmation in the case of one who was already baptised) followed by the rest of the mass, including the first communion of the neophytes.

 

[Fervent]

The temple in Jerusalem was huge and Christian Jews in large groups could meet there, until they started to be persecuted, but they met daily in houses. They seemed to take communion daily in the house churches to begin with: “Acts 2: 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,”. The breaking of bread is separated by the conjunction “and” from ate together, suggest separate acts. We do not find breaking of bread in masses greater than a house church, but it could have happened, but where?

Acts 20 seems a good place to start, though you seem to be trying to make an argument from silence when there is no reason to expect a detailed account of larger assemblies happening and the practical considerations of smaller gatherings happening more frequently do not imply that there was no larger gathering. It especially doesn't imply that the church was divided into largely isolated cells that didn't regularly meet with much larger common assemblies.

 

[bling]

Acts 20 seems a good place to start, though you seem to be trying to make an argument from silence when there is no reason to expect a detailed account of larger assemblies happening and the practical considerations of smaller gatherings happening more frequently do not imply that there was no larger gathering. It especially doesn't imply that the church was divided into largely isolated cells that didn't regularly meet with much larger common assemblies.

Acts 20: 7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
How big was this third floor room and how many people are we talking about?
Acts 20: 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. Public does not mean a large building, it could have been out in the open. He does say house to house.

With the persecutions which followed, the Christians did not build churches, it is said they did meet in catacombs of the dead, but house churches were talked about a lot.

 

[Fervent]

Acts 20: 7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
How big was this third floor room and how many people are we talking about?
Acts 20: 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. Public does not mean a large building, it could have been out in the open. He does say house to house.

With the persecutions which followed, the Christians did not build churches, it is said they did meet in catacombs of the dead, but house churches were talked about a lot.

Public doesn't mean building, true. But it does imply larger group assemblies, regardless of whether they were out in the open or in a building somewhare. As for the size of the upper room, who knows but from the sounds of it was more than an isolated cell of believers in a house church. Seems more of a both/and then an either/or.

 

[atpollard]

Seems a bit ironic having a common creed and confession of faith if there's a belief in nuda scriptura. Which is not the same thing as sola scriptura, which necessarily involves the tradition as a living witness to the Scriptures.

It was 1689 ... confessions were all the rage that season. Just everybody who was anybody had one and using the WCF with all those parts Sharpie'd out was getting old.

 

[Fervent]

It was 1689 ... confessions were all the rage that season. Just everybody who was anybody had one and using the WCF with all those parts Sharpie'd out was getting old.

Kind of makes me think of the scene in the movie The Jerk where Steve Martin declared he didn't need anything but then slowly added more and more to what he needed as he walked out.

 

[atpollard]

if there's a belief in nuda scriptura. Which is not the same thing as sola scriptura

These people keep moving the Goal Posts. Fist attack is against Reformers and "Scripture alone" which then becomes a rant about "nuda scriptura".
1689 is the Reformers and that is what the Baptist reformers had to say about Scripture. ... I was attempting to move the goal posts back to the Reformation and the actual Reformers [like my Particular Baptist roots].

 

[Fervent]

These people keep moving the Goal Posts. Fist attack is against Reformers and "Scripture alone" which then becomes a rant about "nuda scriptura".
1689 is the Reformers and that is what the Baptist reformers had to say about Scripture. ... I was attempting to move the goal posts back to the Reformation and the actual Reformers [like my Particular baptist roots].

I get that, but as someone who believes in a form of "sola scriptura" I find it important to distinguish between it and the modern understanding that has gone too far to the other extreme and attempts to drive a wedge between Christian history and the Bible not only in responding to people who hold such beliefs but also in responding to Catholic and Orthodox polemics that try to place an exclusive claim on history for their "church."

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

These people keep moving the Goal Posts. Fist attack is against Reformers and "Scripture alone" which then becomes a rant about "nuda scriptura".
1689 is the Reformers and that is what the Baptist reformers had to say about Scripture. ... I was attempting to move the goal posts back to the Reformation and the actual Reformers [like my Particular Baptist roots].

Brother, take up the Green Catechism and relax, you will be transported to a world where nuda and sola are not so relevant anymore and everything turns on faith in Jesus Christ as God's Messiah and as Lord of all.

 

[prodromos]

Acts 20: 7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.
How big was this third floor room and how many people are we talking about?
Acts 20: 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. Public does not mean a large building, it could have been out in the open. He does say house to house.

With the persecutions which followed, the Christians did not build churches, it is said they did meet in catacombs of the dead, but house churches were talked about a lot.

They did build churches.

Megiddo church (Israel) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They also converted houses into churches.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[atpollard]

Brother, take up the Green Catechism and relax, you will be transported to a world where nuda and sola are not so relevant anymore and everything turns on faith in Jesus Christ as God's Messiah and as Lord of all.

I honestly tried. I was converted from Atheism via an outreach by your Catholic Charismatics (who if I am honest, my first reaction was “they need their meds adjusted”). However, I admired the honesty of their faith and gave this Jesus of theirs a fair hearing. God, being God, did what God does. So the next logical step was to read this ‘Bible’ thing to learn more about this ‘Jesus’ thing and to study “A Catechism for Inquirers” at the local RCC.

I just could not accept the Tradition/Church Authority explanation for the discrepancy that I saw between what I read in the Bible and what the Church taught (mostly surrounding the Mariology doctrines). Since joining the RCC involved affirming the beliefs and I would not say what I did not mean … we parted ways: amicably. So I really tried to embrace your “green Catechism” but choked on some of the theology.

The irony is that 10 years of study at the Church of God (Wesleyan Holiness/Methodist teaching) and reading the Bible led me to Particular (TULIP) Baptist personal theology beliefs. I see in scripture, what I see in scripture and cannot deny the Word of God for ‘fellowship’ with the words of any group of men. So I am what I am.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I honestly tried. I was converted from Atheism via an outreach by your Catholic Charismatics (who if I am honest, my first reaction was “they need their meds adjusted”). However, I admired the honesty of their faith and gave this Jesus of theirs a fair hearing. God, being God, did what God does. So the next logical step was to read this ‘Bible’ thing to learn more about this ‘Jesus’ thing and to study “A Catechism for Inquirers” at the local RCC.

I just could not accept the Tradition/Church Authority explanation for the discrepancy that I saw between what I read in the Bible and what the Church taught (mostly surrounding the Mariology doctrines). Since joining the RCC involved affirming the beliefs and I would not say what I did not mean … we parted ways: amicably. So I really tried to embrace your “green Catechism” but choked on some of the theology.

The irony is that 10 years of study at the Church of God (Wesleyan Holiness/Methodist teaching) and reading the Bible led me to Particular (TULIP) Baptist personal theology beliefs. I see in scripture, what I see in scripture and cannot deny the Word of God for ‘fellowship’ with the words of any group of men. So I am what I am.

Try harder with the green catechism

 

[bling]

Public doesn't mean building, true. But it does imply larger group assemblies, regardless of whether they were out in the open or in a building somewhare. As for the size of the upper room, who knows but from the sounds of it was more than an isolated cell of believers in a house church. Seems more of a both/and then an either/or.

I had a friend preach/teach all night in one room with 100 standing Christians with one 100 watt bulb hanging from the ceiling, in China. Those were 100 house church leaders doing something very risky, since they were breaking the law.

 

[bling]

They did build churches.

Megiddo church (Israel) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They also converted houses into churches.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Those were built in the third century, we have been talking about Bible times first century.

 

[Fervent]

I had a friend preach/teach all night in one room with 100 standing Christians with one 100 watt bulb hanging from the ceiling, in China. Those were 100 house church leaders doing something very risky, since they were breaking the law.

That's great to hear, and there's nothing really wrong with a house church model but that doesn't make other governmental structures invalid or without their place within the broader Christian mission. While house churches create an intimate bond the larger denominational models are able to more effectively pool resources which is also needed. To claim that the Biblical model is the house church model is to say more than the evidence allows in its favor.

 

[The Liturgist]

They did build churches.

Megiddo church (Israel) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They also converted houses into churches.

Dura-Europos church - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Also the first cathedral was built in Kerala in 52 AD, shortly befoee St. Thomas was martyred on that location by a javelin-wielding Maharaja, in one of the first, perhaps the first, of many incidents of terrible persecutions of Christians in India by the Hindu majority, who are frankly the third worst major religion in the world when it comes to persecuting us after Islam and the various Communist denominations*.

interestingly, the original building is still somewhat intact, with Renaissance and Portuguese Baroque modifications, and is in use by the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (which took over the Church of the East in India, except for the dissenters who united with the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch).

*which have acquired in my opinion the essential features of cults like Scientology or Mormonism, in the form of rituals, idolarry, especially in the North Korean variety and the neo-Maoism of the CCP under the Xi Jinpin totalitarianism and even eschatology in the form of the utopian fantasies about how things will be “after the revolution” or when that proves to be a living nigntmare, “after pure Communism is achieved”.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's great to hear, and there's nothing really wrong with a house church model but that doesn't make other governmental structures invalid or without their place within the broader Christian mission. While house churches create an intimate bond the larger denominational models are able to more effectively pool resources which is also needed. To claim that the Biblical model is the house church model is to say more than the evidence allows in its favor.

There is also the issue that house churches can have problems with the proper supervision of clergy and of doctrine. Now this is not always the case; the smallest canonical Eastern Orthodox church in the UK is an exquisite Antiochian Orthodox church constructed in a private residence.

Also obviously every monastery and convent in the world is technically a giant house church, which is one reason I love to spend time in them. It is extremely convenient to wake up mere footsteps from the Eucharistic liturgy.