How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[bling]

Why not? Isn’t salvation more important than rejoicing?

People who are not willing or wanting to accept pure charity as charity would not be happy in heaven (heaven being part of salvation), where there is only Godly type Love (charity).
A free willingness to humbly accept pure charity is the only way to accept the charity of God's forgiveness and accepting God's forgiveness automatically provides the person with their own Godly type Love, snce "he who is forgive much Loves much".

 

[Hammster]

People who are not willing or wanting to accept pure charity as charity would not be happy in heaven (heaven being part of salvation), where there is only Godly type Love (charity).
A free willingness to humbly accept pure charity is the only way to accept the charity of God's forgiveness and accepting God's forgiveness automatically provides the person with their own Godly type Love, snce "he who is forgive much Loves much".

Do you see a difference between a heart of stone and a heart of flesh?

 

[bling]

Do you see a difference between a heart of stone and a heart of flesh?

Hearts can be hardened or softened by the same God provided experience (like with the death of a child), so it has to do with how the person allows his/her experiences to impact them.

Eventually a hardened person reaches the point they will never accept and allow God’s help in soften their heart, so they will never accept God’s charity (only God would know when this happened). These people take on a lesser objective to be used by God in helping others who can still accept God help, but they themselves will not accept God’s help.

 

[Hammster]

Hearts can be hardened or softened by the same God provided experience (like with the death of a child), so it has to do with how the person allows his/her experiences to impact them.

Eventually a hardened person reaches the point they will never accept and allow God’s help in soften their heart, so they will never accept God’s charity (only God would know when this happened). These people take on a lesser objective to be used by God in helping others who can still accept God help, but they themselves will not accept God’s help.

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
— Ezekiel 36:25-28

Where do you see man’s free will in this passage?

 

[bling]

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
— Ezekiel 36:25-28

Where do you see man’s free will in this passage?

Ezekiel 36 and 37 are very poetic and uses lots of hyperboles Like 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life.

The literal prophecies about Israel in Ezekiel especially 36 and 37, did not happen since the people did not accept the change the prophecies in Jerimiah 18 were fulfilled: 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Man’s free will part in the prophecy of Ezekiel 36 is found in the truism of Jer. 18 and explains why the prophecy did not happen as stated. Ezekiel 36 does not contradict Jer. 18 prophecy but always has to be taken into consideration even though it is not restated each time a prophecy is give.

 

[Hammster]

Ezekiel 36 and 37 are very poetic and uses lots of hyperboles Like 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life.

The literal prophecies about Israel in Ezekiel especially 36 and 37, did not happen since the people did not accept the change the prophecies in Jerimiah 18 were fulfilled: 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Man’s free will part in the prophecy of Ezekiel 36 is found in the truism of Jer. 18 and explains why the prophecy did not happen as stated. Ezekiel 36 does not contradict Jer. 18 prophecy but always has to be taken into consideration even though it is not restated each time a prophecy is give.

So you disregard it. That helps.

 

[bling]

So you disregard it. That helps.

It has to be taken in the context of Jr. 18 or do you disregard what Jerimiah taught as a truism of all God's prophecies?

 

[Hammster]

It has to be taken in the context of Jr. 18 or do you disregard what Jerimiah taught as a truism of all God's prophecies?

No, it has to be understood as written. You can try to dismiss it. But I’m not going to.

 

[bling]

No, it has to be understood as written. You can try to dismiss it. But I’m not going to.

There is a truism given by Jerimiah about all God's prophecies that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

 

[Hammster]

There is a truism given by Jerimiah about all God's prophecies that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

But you feel it’s okay to ignore Ezekiel.

 

[bling]

But you feel it’s okay to ignore Ezekiel.

NO!
the prophecy would have happened exactly as Ezekiel said it would. if the Jews had continued in their repentant ways.

 

[Hammster]

NO!
the prophecy would have happened exactly as Ezekiel said it would. if the Jews had continued in their repentant ways.

You’ve completely missed the point. God acts because there was no repentance. A heart of stone has no reason to want to repent.

 

[Halbhh]

Yet, my direct question always invokes a response similar to the one above.

Ah, when asking a lot of different Christians the same question, and getting a very similar response, it's very likely that response is correct.

And better, it's correct with absolute certainty when it's scripture!

Nice to meet you.
Hal

 

[bling]

You’ve completely missed the point. God acts because there was no repentance. A heart of stone has no reason to want to repent.

Your missing the point of Jerimiah 18 where God's actions are contingent on the free will actions of the people for all God's prophecies to help or hurt a nation. We know like Ezekiel's prophecy being discussed it did not take place like stated, so was that God's inability or man's choice to change and not be like the people God promised wonderful things to. The Jews at the time of Ezekiel's writing of God's prophecy were as low as you could get and they even with their hard hearts were willing and wanting to accept God's help, but as soon as things started turn around they turned from God again (God does not stop us from turning from Him), thus the promise could not be completed according to Jer. 18.

 

[Halbhh]

Your missing the point of Jerimiah 18 where God's actions are contingent on the free will actions of the people for all God's prophecies to help or hurt a nation. We know like Ezekiel's prophecy being discussed it did not take place like stated, so was that God's inability or man's choice to change and not be like the people God promised wonderful things to. The Jews at the time of Ezekiel's writing of God's prophecy were as low as you could get and they even with their hard hearts were willing and wanting to accept God's help, but as soon as things started turn around they turned from God again (God does not stop us from turning from Him), thus the promise could not be completed according to Jer. 18.

Jeremiah 18:8 But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring.

Wow, that's such a decisive verse to disprove any notion of the future already being fixed/set, ahead of time.

That the only things that are fixed, set, are the ultimate plans God has made and decided on which are not contingent ones. He will accomplish what He chooses to cause to happen (Isaiah chapter 46).

 

[Hammster]

Your missing the point of Jerimiah 18 where God's actions are contingent on the free will actions of the people for all God's prophecies to help or hurt a nation. We know like Ezekiel's prophecy being discussed it did not take place like stated, so was that God's inability or man's choice to change and not be like the people God promised wonderful things to. The Jews at the time of Ezekiel's writing of God's prophecy were as low as you could get and they even with their hard hearts were willing and wanting to accept God's help, but as soon as things started turn around they turned from God again (God does not stop us from turning from Him), thus the promise could not be completed according to Jer. 18.

I have no idea how you come up with this, but I’ll leave you with your view of an anemic God.

 

[bling]

I have no idea how you come up with this, but I’ll leave you with your view of an anemic God.

There seems to be just one good option for why God did not fulfill His promises to nations both to build up (like Judea)and tear down (like Nineveh) which Jer. 18 gives us (contingent on man’s free will future actions.) What explanation do you have?

 

[bling]

Jeremiah 18:8 But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to bring.

Wow, that's such a decisive verse to disprove any notion of the future already being fixed/set, ahead of time.

That the only things that are fixed, set, are the ultimate plans God has made and decided on which are not contingent ones. He will accomplish what He chooses to cause to happen (Isaiah chapter 46).

Actually, it does just the opposite of what you are thinking, but this will take some explaining. It supports free will, but you will have to think hard about this and I have had a hard time explaining in the past to those with the Open View and those with a strong God controls all the future view.

First you have to look at and study the options:

Option one: The future is unknown to God, except for what He will do: How would God state a “warning” to a nation that is bad at the time of the warning? God would say: “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” God would not say: “I will destroy you”, because He might not destroy them, so He would lie if He said He would. The “if” would say: God does not know the future.

Option two: God knows all the future perfectly (it is in stone), including all free will choices: How could God give a warning to a nation that is doing badly and needs to change and God knows a warning is what they need to change and will change with a warning. If God said: “if you do not change I will destroy you.” God is misleading, since the “if” says He does not know the future result. If God said the truth: “I will not be destroying you because you will repent”, there would be no warning, so they would not repent (God is no help).

Option three: God knows the future perfectly, but through His prophets conveys the truism which Jerimiah finally records for us, that God can factually state actions He will do for or against a nation in the future against or for a nation or individual which can later not happen if the nation or individual He stated the action to is no longer the same when the action is to take place. This would need to be stated generally with no specific nation, person, time or action being addressed. God will not be using the word “if” when addressing future actions for or against a nation or individual, so it is up to their knowledge of how God states warnings to understand His warnings.

Look at Jonah, since here we have a “warning” stated as only a single future action of God in a specific time frame: “I will destroy you in 40 days.” Jonah definitely understood that as a warning for Nineveh and from the reaction of the people of Nineveh they understood it as a warning. We can understand Jonah knowing it was a warning, but how did Nineveh know? First off: the story is all about Jonah and this is really being done to help Jonah, with Nineveh being the back drop to the story. God could have found other prophets to go to Nineveh, but Jonah needed help. We do not know all the other previous prophets who went to Nineveh and what they said about Jonah’s coming or what the people will need to do to avoid God’s wrath nor what the people were taught about warnings from God. Jonah could not have told the people repent or God will destroy you in 40 days, since that would suggest God did not know what He would be doing in 40 days.

How did I do?

 

[Neogaia777]

Actually, it does just the opposite of what you are thinking, but this will take some explaining. It supports free will, but you will have to think hard about this and I have had a hard time explaining in the past to those with the Open View and those with a strong God controls all the future view.

First you have to look at and study the options:

Option one: The future is unknown to God, except for what He will do: How would God state a “warning” to a nation that is bad at the time of the warning? God would say: “If you do not repent I will destroy you.” God would not say: “I will destroy you”, because He might not destroy them, so He would lie if He said He would. The “if” would say: God does not know the future.

Option two: God knows all the future perfectly (it is in stone), including all free will choices: How could God give a warning to a nation that is doing badly and needs to change and God knows a warning is what they need to change and will change with a warning. If God said: “if you do not change I will destroy you.” God is misleading, since the “if” says He does not know the future result. If God said the truth: “I will not be destroying you because you will repent”, there would be no warning, so they would not repent (God is no help).

Option three: God knows the future perfectly, but through His prophets conveys the truism which Jerimiah finally records for us, that God can factually state actions He will do for or against a nation in the future against or for a nation or individual which can later not happen if the nation or individual He stated the action to is no longer the same when the action is to take place. This would need to be stated generally with no specific nation, person, time or action being addressed. God will not be using the word “if” when addressing future actions for or against a nation or individual, so it is up to their knowledge of how God states warnings to understand His warnings.

Look at Jonah, since here we have a “warning” stated as only a single future action of God in a specific time frame: “I will destroy you in 40 days.” Jonah definitely understood that as a warning for Nineveh and from the reaction of the people of Nineveh they understood it as a warning. We can understand Jonah knowing it was a warning, but how did Nineveh know? First off: the story is all about Jonah and this is really being done to help Jonah, with Nineveh being the back drop to the story. God could have found other prophets to go to Nineveh, but Jonah needed help. We do not know all the other previous prophets who went to Nineveh and what they said about Jonah’s coming or what the people will need to do to avoid God’s wrath nor what the people were taught about warnings from God. Jonah could not have told the people repent or God will destroy you in 40 days, since that would suggest God did not know what He would be doing in 40 days.

How did I do?

There were some cases in which, God in the OT, that things went in a way in which He wasn't expecting, or did not go the way He thought or anticipated they would go...

How do you explain that...?

Free will is a point of view... From a certain perspective (singular), we do not have it, and from other perspectives (plural), we do...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

There seems to be just one good option for why God did not fulfill His promises to nations both to build up (like Judea)and tear down (like Nineveh) which Jer. 18 gives us (contingent on man’s free will future actions.) What explanation do you have?

The "explanation" is that free will is a perspective, or point of view... From a "certain perspective" (singular), we do not have it, and from other "perspectives" (plural), we do...

God Bless!