How far would you go to stop murder?

[Autumnleaf]

I was reading a book called Gathering of the Lambs written by a retired Catholic Priest/army leutenant colonel who has a group which travels around and tries to shut down abortion clinics. Him and his people go to all kinds of jails/federal prisons for their efforts and from how it sounds the Catholic Church doesn't even do much to support them.

He believes abortion is murder and puts his life's efforts into stopping it with passive resistance. From how it sounds they do save the lives of some unborn babies but they take a heck of a beating for it and spend lots of time incarcerated.

My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

 

[CSmrw]

I voted against Bush.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

I was reading a book called Gathering of the Lambs written by a retired Catholic Priest/army leutenant colonel who has a group which travels around and tries to shut down abortion clinics. Him and his people go to all kinds of jails/federal prisons for their efforts and from how it sounds the Catholic Church doesn't even do much to support them.

He believes abortion is murder and puts his life's efforts into stopping it with passive resistance. From how it sounds they do save the lives of some unborn babies but they take a heck of a beating for it and spend lots of time incarcerated.

My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

I'm sorry, passive resistance and incarceration do not go hand in hand.

Innocent people? It's hard to say. Different things call for different measures.

 

[trunks2k]

My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

Depends on what those things are and how many innocent people they kill.

 

[Cerberus~]

My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

If that were the case, it wouldn't be murder.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I'm sorry, passive resistance and incarceration do not go hand in hand.

They'd crowd up to the doors of clinics and go limp.

 

[loriersea]

I voted against Bush.

 

[simpletrust]

If that were the case, it wouldn't be murder.

Huh??

 

[katautumn]

They'd crowd up to the doors of clinics and go limp.

Let me ask you this. How would you feel if some sort of anti-parenthood coalition was hanging around outside prenatal care facilities and your pregnant wife went to go into the building for an important pre-natal check-up and they crowded around her, putting her in physical danger, shouted obscenities at her and forcibly prohibited her from entering the building? I'm sure you would be outraged.

I know you're probably thinking, "well, she wouldn't be going in there to have an abortion", but that is irrelevant. The point is, the law says women can have abortions and the law says women can carry a pregnancy to full-term and receive the care she needs. You have people who condemn abortion and you have people who condemn parenthood. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but no one ever has the right to break the law and put people (including themselves) in danger based upon an opinion.

 

[loriersea]

In all honesty, if people truly believe that abortion is murder (which I believe only a very small percentage of people who would love to return to the days of illegal abortions really believe), then that is the only appropriate response, and in fact they should go further.

If I knew that there was a building in my neighborhood where people were murdering babies--where they were taking newborn babies and cutting them up into little pieces--I would stop at NOTHING to shut them down. I definitely wouldn't think that just holding up signs outside, or yelling at women going in, would be enough. No way! Real babies were being murdered! Even if it were legal, I wouldn't care. I would do whatever was necessary to save those babies, even if it meant putting my own life in danger.

Think of how you would feel if you knew that there was a building in town where real, born babies were being murdered on a daily basis. Think of what you'd do. And then think of how the existence of abortion clinics makes you feel. If anyone actually feel the two are the same, then they are devaluing actual human persons to a disgraceful and disturbing degree.

 

[christalee4]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200309%5CNAT20030903a.html

Paul Hill is considered to be a hero among some anti abortion groups.

Rev. Donald Spitz, Michael Bray and other fringe Christian leaders have advocated the use of force, including killing, to stop abortions. They are also associated with racist groups.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=72

 

[Laura]

I voted against Bush.

HAHA! Me too.

 

[Stormy]

In all honesty, if people truly believe that abortion is murder (which I believe only a very small percentage of people who would love to return to the days of illegal abortions really believe), then that is the only appropriate response, and in fact they should go further.

If I knew that there was a building in my neighborhood where people were murdering babies--where they were taking newborn babies and cutting them up into little pieces--I would stop at NOTHING to shut them down. I definitely wouldn't think that just holding up signs outside, or yelling at women going in, would be enough. No way! Real babies were being murdered! Even if it were legal, I wouldn't care. I would do whatever was necessary to save those babies, even if it meant putting my own life in danger.

Think of how you would feel if you knew that there was a building in town where real, born babies were being murdered on a daily basis. Think of what you'd do. And then think of how the existence of abortion clinics makes you feel. If anyone actually feel the two are the same, then they are devaluing actual human persons to a disgraceful and disturbing degree.

It was not that long ago when our nation participated in the killing of infants, just as you describe. Before the ban on Partial Birth Abortion, there was no question as to the truth, that babies who could live were being deliberately killed.

You may want to read up on it. I will respect the right of those, who would rather keep their eyes closed tight, by not posting pictures or information that would make any normal person sick. But... We will need you, if the forces that are trying to get this banned over-turned are allowed to have it their way.

ON a side note to the political Presidential talk on this thread... I will vote against any person who does not hear the cries of the unborn.

 

[loriersea]

It was not that long ago when our nation participated in the killing of infants, just as you describe. Before the ban on Partial Birth Abortion, there was no question as to the truth, that babies who could live were being deliberately killed.

Evidence suggests that no more than a few hundred, at most, of third-trimester abortions occur each year, and those that do occur are only when the life of the mother is in serious jeopardy. Surely you wouldn't want women to be forced to die so that their fetus could survive?

And, no, that's NOT what I was describing. I was not talking about a woman in her third trimester of pregnancy whose life was at risk, or whose fetus was so severely damaged that it had no hope of anything other than a short life full of agonizing pain or a stillbirth, getting medically necessary abortions. I was talking about babies who are BORN being killed.

 

[loriersea]

ON a side note to the political Presidential talk on this thread... I will vote against any person who does not hear the cries of the unborn.

I guess the cries of the BORN--you know, the people that actually CAN cry because they ARE people--don't matter so much to you.

Let us not forget that the United States has the highest rate of infant mortality--of BORN babies--in the industrialized world, in large part because of the terrible health care (or lack thereof) that poor people receive. But, I guess the cries of those babies and their mothers don't mean anything. Or the cries of the babies who were killed in bombings in Iraq, or their parents. Or the cries of the millions of infants in Africa dying of starvation or AIDS, or of their parents. No, it so much easier to hear the imaginary cries of the unborn so that we can ignore the very real, very loud cries of the suffering all around us.

 

[katautumn]

There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion". That was a misleading term coined concocted by the anti-choice movement to invoke images of women in labor deciding at the last minute that she doesn't want to have a child so she has it aborted. That's not the case at all.

In fact, the only state where late term Dilation & Extraction procedures were performed electively (meaning, without an actual life-threatening medical problem) was New Jersey. Before the ban, D&X accounted for only .01% of all abortion procedures performed. Why waste so much time on an abortion procedure that wasn't even legal in all but one state from an "on-demand" perspective and only accounts for such a miniscule fraction of abortions performed each year? Simple. It's easier to strike down Roe if we create falsified names for medical procedures as describe them as a gruesome crime against humanity. Even people, such as myself, who are adamantly pro-choice do not agree with elective abortion after the point of fetal viability.

 

[CSMR]

I was reading a book called Gathering of the Lambs written by a retired Catholic Priest/army leutenant colonel who has a group which travels around and tries to shut down abortion clinics. Him and his people go to all kinds of jails/federal prisons for their efforts and from how it sounds the Catholic Church doesn't even do much to support them.

He believes abortion is murder and puts his life's efforts into stopping it with passive resistance. From how it sounds they do save the lives of some unborn babies but they take a heck of a beating for it and spend lots of time incarcerated.

My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

I believe it is a greater sign of faith not to rebel against the laws, out of the knowledge that nothing in this world is in itself good, including life, except for that Life which God can give to everyone. (Paul I think talks about this in Romans 12-13.)

 

[Galilean]

Real babies were being murdered!

Exactly! This isn't just the old case of those fake babies still developing in the womb having their brains scrambled!

 

[""]

There is no such thing as a "partial birth abortion".

You are incorrect. If you'd like me to explain to you why I know you're incorrect, then you'll have to pm me. I won't give examples of my experiences here, but I will say that the partial birth abortions that I was witness to involved the injection of medication to cause contractions, the live birth of a child, feet first, and the murdering of of the child, while it's head was forced to remain in the vagina.

For more information:

Sometimes hormones are used to induce the process of labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus' leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal, causing what is commonly known as the 'partial-birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently births the rest of the baby, usually without the aid of forceps, leaving only the head still inside the birth canal. With sufficient force, the doctor inserts scissors into the base of the back of the skull. The doctor spreads the scissors to widen the opening, and then inserts a suction catheter. The brain tissue is removed, killing the fetus, and allowing the rest of the fetus to pass easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction


You should not speak of things like this when you do not have all of the information. You cannot know if you have not been there, and too often clinics will tell you that this simply doesn't happen. They're lying. Now that I have told you the truth, if you proceed to share the fabricated "nicer version" that you did in your post, you'll be lying too.

 

[Zakath]

If the Christian deity is honestly as appalled at killing the unborn as some Christians claim, why doesn't he put an end to it in such a manner that it is unmistakably divine intervention?

It's not like there's no record of such interaction in the Judeo-Christian religious texts...

To answer the original question, I would have to evaluate each circumstance on its own before I could answer. Sometimes force, even deadly force, is justified to save human lives. Other times, it's not.