How does your view of the past affect your view of the present and future?

[pressingon]

Obviously, creationists and theistic evolutionists disagree about how God created the world in which we live and how we came to be. We also generally disagree about the proper interpretation of Scripture.

Maybe this is off-topic, but how does your specific belief (creation, theistic evolution, gap theory, other) affect the way in which you see the world today and what you believe about the future? Please respond to the following in your reply:

-- What do you think of the world's present condition (physical, spiritual, other)?
-- How does your specific viewpoint on our past influence your viewpoints on this?
-- How does your interpretation of Scripture influence your viewpoints on this?
-- What do you believe the future holds for the earth and humanity (physical, spiritual, other)?
-- How does your specific viewpoint on our past influence your viewpoints on this?
-- How does your interpretation of Scripture influence your viewpoints on this?

Please refrain from debating with each other in this thread. I believe that if we can keep from debate, we'll learn some interesting things about each other, perhaps even finding that, despite our differing viewpoints on the past, that we have more in common than we might currently believe.

 

[mhess13]

I believe that if you have death before sin as evolution teaches, then you can not adequately explain suffering in the world. If you have millions of years of death before sin how do you explain cancer, diabetes, arthritis, cerebal palsey, etc?

Millions of years of death before sin would lead me to wonder if God is a good God. Adam would have died physically even if he didn't sin. And physical death is an enemy (1cor15) that why we have the hope of our bodies being physically resurrected. If physical death is not an enemy, then why do even the most pious Christians dread their death? Something in us inherently knows that death is an invader, and intruder. So evolution teaches that death was a part of God's very good creation.

YECism helps me to know that God is good and the horrible conditions in the world are all because of sin. When a child dies is is because of the fall of man. This makes sense to me and I can reconcile suffering in the world with a good God

 

[lucaspa]

YECism helps me to know that God is good and the horrible conditions in the world are all because of sin. When a child dies is is because of the fall of man. This makes sense to me and I can reconcile suffering in the world with a good God

Then you aren't paying attention to a literal reading of Genesis 3! The "horrible conditions in the world" are not "all because of sin". Genesis 3 is very specific about what the punishments for disobedience were, and they are very limited. Farming gets to be difficult, humans hate snakes, childbirth is going to be painful and often fatal. And that is IT! Death of children is not due to sin. That's a human theory that is not based on the Bible.

Look at Genesis 2:17. God says Adam will die "in the day" (beyom) when he eats the fruit. "Beyom" in Hebrew is used for times that are immediate. Instead, Adam physically lives for 950 years! BUT, Adam and Eve immediately hide from God. They are immediately spiritually dead.

Also, look at Genesis 5. This is yet another creation story. In it humans physically die. But this can be reversed for the offspring of 'heavenly beings' and human women. God doesn't want these offspring to live forever, so puts an upper limit to the human lifespan of 120 years. Of course, the contradictions pile up since Noah, after the command, lives over 900 years!

Finally, you have several OT verses that specifically say you can't punish children for the sins of their fathers:
Deut. 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers (2Chron.25:54) :every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (2 Kings 14:6)
Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

I believe that if you have death before sin as evolution teaches, then you can not adequately explain suffering in the world. If you have millions of years of death before sin how do you explain cancer, diabetes, arthritis, cerebal palsey, etc?

As byproducts of a complete creation where there are real consequences. And as a byproduct of having a material method of reproduction that can introduce errors into the DNA.

What you can't do is explain it by having humans be a special creation. As I said, Genesis 3 is no help, since the punishments don't include these. You have to make things up outside the Bible to include these. And then you stil have the problem of why these things should happen to good people who didn't sin on their own! Punish a good person because of what Adam did? What kind of vengeful god do you have, Mhess?

Millions of years of death before sin would lead me to wonder if God is a good God. Adam would have died physically even if he didn't sin.

Right, but he would not have been spiritually cut off from God.

physical death is not an enemy, then why do even the most pious Christians dread their death?

Beats me! Why do you? If dying gets you to God, why do you fear it so?

Something in us inherently knows that death is an invader, and intruder.

Or we really aren't sure there is anything else. Or death is such an unknown that we fear it, like we fear anything unknown. Death is part of life, but we dread the thought of life going on without us. But should we dread death? If we are not spiritually dead, then what is the death of the body?

So evolution teaches that death was a part of God's very good creation.

Actually, evolution the scientific theory doesn't mention this at all. The idea of God having a "good creation" comes from Genesis 1. And in Genesis 1, there is no mention of people living forever. Just like there is no such mention in Genesis 2. If Adam and Eve were going to live forever, why have a Tree of Everlasting Life in the Garden? What possible effect could it have on them? And they are kicked out of the Garden specifically so that they won't eat of that tree also, and be like "us" and live forever. The implication in Genesis 3:23 is very clear that Adam and Eve were always going to physically die, and God doesn't want them cheating.

 

[lucaspa]

Maybe this is off-topic, but how does your specific belief (creation, theistic evolution, gap theory, other) affect the way in which you see the world today and what you believe about the future?

Doesn't affect it at all.

What we are going to end up doing, as Mhess and I have already started, is discussing a separate man made theory: that physical death was due to the Fall. There are profound differences in how you regard death based on whether you accept that man made theory or not. But we have discussed that several times in this forum -- look thru past posts, particularly one by TheBear discussing whether Genesis 2 means physical or spiritual death.

 

[billwald]

You all have a strange concept of "view" and "past." My past started in 1940.

 

[pressingon]

What we are going to end up doing, as Mhess and I have already started, is discussing a separate man made theory: that physical death was due to the Fall. There are profound differences in how you regard death based on whether you accept that man made theory or not. But we have discussed that several times in this forum -- look thru past posts, particularly one by TheBear discussing whether Genesis 2 means physical or spiritual death.

This is why I specifically asked that this not be a debate thread, but merely one where people can state their opinions and viewpoints.

I know people's opinions and viewpoints on the past will differ (they may even seem downright ignorant), but that does not change the fact that they affect how we see the world today, and what we might expect to see in the future.


All --

Please do NOT use this thread as an opportunity to bash other viewpoints. Answer the questions from YOUR point of view, without contrasting how you think it would differ if you held the other. Leave that to those that actually DO hold that viewpoint.

 

[lucaspa]

I know people's opinions and viewpoints on the past will differ (they may even seem downright ignorant), but that does not change the fact that they affect how we see the world today, and what we might expect to see in the future.

You are going to have to define more specifically what you mean by "might expect in the future". Obviously, evolution is used in ecology (the Struggle for Existence particularly) and we predict the near future of ecosystems.

Interestingly, I have never seen the creationist websites address extinctions due to ecosystem disruption. Or, if they do, they basically accept evolution. Nowhere have I seen predictions of the behavior of ecosystems based on creationism. Maybe that is because creationism has basically accepted evolution in adaptation to enviornments.

If you mean human political and social futures, then neither creationism nor evolution is going to factor into that. Evolution deals with genetic changes in populations over generations and not social or political changes. Those aren't due to genes since they happen within a generation or two.

So, what exactly do you mean?

 

[lucaspa]

This is why I specifically asked that this not be a debate thread, but merely one where people can state their opinions and viewpoints.

That is unrealistic. We are going to examine the reasoning and premises of the differing pov's and test them to see if the pov is valid. After all, these are discussion boards.

 

[Crusadar]

lucaspa said: "Death of children is not due to sin. That's a human theory that is not based on the Bible."


Are you sure about this lucaspa?


"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:5-6