ChristIsSovereign
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Not are they only in the Bible, they ARE the Bible. Just an ancient Bible.
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No doubt. I bet those reformers knew nothing about that.
Those are in the Bible? I bet if the reformers had seen those, they would have had a different view.
It's easier if I deal with each instance of Scripture separately.Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.
I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.
Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.
Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
It's easier if I deal with each instance of Scripture separately.
So, let me start with 1 John 2:2
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
If you understand what "propitiation" means then the phrase "whole world" could not possibly be referring to everyone in the world. Right? Unless you are a universalist.
The Apostles often use all inclusive language to refer to different classes of people such as Jew vs. Gentile, rich vs. poor, male vs. female, etc.
This universal language is where the Church gets it's concept of "catholicity". The Nicene Creed contains the line "one, holy, catholic and apostolic" for example.
This is the same for 1 Timothy 2:3-6, where the greater context is referring to classifications of people and not individuals.
In 2 Peter 3:9, the immediate antecedent of the words "any" and "all" is the word "you" which is clearly referring to the people to whom the letter was written, namely the "beloved" or, in other words, believers.
This is consistent with the Reformed understanding that Christ died for all believers throughout the whole world and not for all people.
That's amazing.Not are they only in the Bible, they ARE the Bible. Just an ancient Bible.
That's amazing.
If you really left Calvinism, then why are you acting as if it doesn't have an answer to the verses you posted?I left Calvinism because of deeper studies of the Word and because I felt the Holy Spirit convict me of intellectual pride. I would condemn others who dared to oppose Calvinism and that directly went against the Scriptures having to do with sectarianism.
Is Calvinism true? No. Is Arminianism true? No.
The solemn truth is that we will never truly understand soteriology until we get to Heaven and perhaps ask God how He does His picking and choosing and whatever it is.
Do you have a specific problem in mind? Or, are you saying that I should have given my answer in Greek?Read the last post with the Greek Lexicons. I hope that gives some food for thought.
Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.
I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.
Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.
Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
Do you have a specific problem in mind? Or, are you saying that I should have given my answer in Greek?
I am not sure what you mean by the reformed church. Do they have a constitution, a statement of purpose, or articles of incorporation? Who could speak for them?Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.
I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.
Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.
Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
And yet, here you are.Neither. Just read the posts about the Greek Lexicons of those verses. Don't answer in Greek. I won't be able to understand.
On a random note, I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The debates, I believe, are fruitless and circular and come to no true conclusion.
Yes, Peter writes his letters to the beloved elect, who will obtain salvation, God is not willing that any of those He gives to Christ be lost.2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
Who is the "you" in the first part of the verse? Isn't Peter referring to "you believers"? So, then, it's not a stretch to understand the next pronoun "any" as a reference to "any of you" and the adjective "all" as also modifying "you" ("all of you believers").
Thanks for inviting me to do so.
You think it contradicts TULIP but no one who holds to TULIP or teaches TULIP believes that it contradicts. So where does the problem lie? Perhaps you've misunderstood the implications of TULIP.
No reformed teacher believes that people are totally passive in their salvation or that salvation happens to them in contradiction to their will or even without their will being involved. Our free choice to embrace Jesus is a very important part of our salvation and any good reformed teacher would have no problem saying this.
And yet, here you are.
Simple! Just insist that "all" means "all sorts [of people]" and that "world" means "people from every part of the world".1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Simple! Just insist that "all" means "all sorts [of people]" and that "world" means "people from every part of the world".
My reply is accurate. It is how many who are Reformed in theology deal with "all" and "world" in the verses mentioned.I don't know if your being facetious, trying to be funny or serious.
Matthew 5:37 [Full Chapter]
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Examples of all
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Are the definitions incorrect?My reply is accurate. It is how many who are Reformed in theology deal with "all" and "world" in the verses mentioned.
They are tailored by the theology to fit the verses.Are the definitions incorrect?
Are the definitions incorrect? It's a simple yes or no question.They are tailored by the theology to fit the verses.
Nothing about bible interpretation is simple. People argue about it all the time.Are the definitions incorrect? It's a simple yes or no question.
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