How Does Salvation WORK

FreeGrace2 · Jun 16, 2020

Over 24 hours ago I asked a poster who claimed that there are unsaved Christians to explain how one becomes a Christian. Crickets.

So it's clear what his ideas are about how to become a Christian.

Which would explain why he would think there are unsaved ones.

5thKingdom · Jun 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
l".
Parables are not real events. They did not literally (really) occur.

LOL... you think parables are not showing REAL EVENTS.
That is hilarious. Let's put your theory to the test.

In Matthew 13 Jesus taught several parables about the
Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"... was He teaching about
REAL EVENTS that would occur... or was He telling fairy tales?

Mat 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and
sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the
blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the
tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said
unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from
whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath
done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go
and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up
the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow
together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say
to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them
in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now... let's see WHAT that parable is about.
Is it about REAL EVENTS or is it just a fairy tale?
Jesus says it's about REAL EVENTS.
Why is this "news" to you?

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into
the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto
us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said
unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed
them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers
are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire;
so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth
his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous
shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If you think this parable is NOT about REAL EVENTS then
clearly you do not have ears that hear. It is talking about
the Great Commission and WHAT HAPPENS at the end,
when the "tares" are thrown into the Lake-of-Fire.

I feel very sorry for you, that you do not think that parables
are teaching about REAL EVENTS. Hear what JESUS has
to say about that:

Mar 4:11-13
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the Kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest
at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be
forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable?
and how then will ye know all parables?

For you to say "Parables are not real events. They did not literally (really) occur" only demonstrates that you were NOT MEANT
to understand Biblical Truths. That is NOT ME saying that...
it is what JESUS said (above)

Yes, parables are teaching about REAL EVENTS.
For you to pretend otherwise shows either (1) you do
not want to submit to what the Scriptures say or (2) that
you were NEVER MEANT to understand Biblical Truths.

I know that is hard to hear... but that is what JESUS said.
Your fight is with JESUS (not with me).

/

5thKingdom · Jun 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Over 24 hours ago I asked a poster who claimed that there are unsaved Christians to explain how one becomes a Christian. Crickets.
So it's clear what his ideas are about how to become a Christian.
Which would explain why he would think there are unsaved ones.

I don't know if you are talking about me, but I will answer
your questions. Jesus clearly taught that there are MANY
unsaved Christians in the church... does the phrase
"wolves in sheep's clothing" ring a bell?

(1) We know there are unsaved Christian because JESUS
tells us the church contains BOTH saved "wheat/sheep"
and unsaved "tares/goats".

Now, this is NOT a new teaching. Christians have understood
this reality since the days of the Apostles. Read about this in
Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:36-43

(2) Now to your second question:
You asked "how does one become Christian"?
That is really the WRONG question. You should have asked
"how does one become saved". Nevertheless... I will answer
the question you asked.

One becomes a "Christian" when they declare they follow
Christ (and normally they would join a church). However,
that DOES NOT MEAN that new "Christian" is really saved.

Any other questions I can answer for you?

.

5thKingdom · Jun 26, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
And why would anyone take seriously anyone else who claims that there are unsaved Christians? That is just beyond absurd.

So you are saying that everyone who calls themselves
"Christian" are really SAVED? Are you serious? Look what
happens to those who CLAIM to be "Christian"... those who
call Jesus their "Lord".

Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And
then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not
be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without,
and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence
ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in
thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say,
I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me,
all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and
all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves
thrust out.

/

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

I said this:
"Parables are not real events. They did not literally (really) occur."

5thKingdom said:
LOL... you think parables are not showing REAL EVENTS.

Seems you either didn't read my second statement, or you just didn't understand it.

By "real event" I was referring to stories that REPRESENT principles.

That is hilarious. Let's put your theory to the test.

In Matthew 13 Jesus taught several parables about the
Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"... was He teaching about
REAL EVENTS that would occur... or was He telling fairy tales?

See my explanation above. He was teaching about principles. Yes, people will get into heaven, and most are already there. But He was teaching principles.

I don't need to address the other parables that you quoted, but it's clear you think parables are events that have happened. They are stories that have principles to learn from.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

I said:
"Over 24 hours ago I asked a poster who claimed that there are unsaved Christians to explain how one becomes a Christian. Crickets.
So it's clear what his ideas are about how to become a Christian.
Which would explain why he would think there are unsaved ones."

5thKingdom said:
I don't know if you are talking about me, but I will answer your questions. Jesus clearly taught that there are MANY unsaved Christians in the church... does the phrase "wolves in sheep's clothing" ring a bell?

Uh, who rung your bells? These "wolves" aren't Christians. Why would you think so? Where is the evidence. And this FAILS to answer my question.

(1) We know there are unsaved Christian because JESUS
tells us the church contains BOTH saved "wheat/sheep" and unsaved "tares/goats".

Uh, being in a church does NOT made one a Christian. There are UNSAVED and SAVED in any church.

(2) Now to your second question:
You asked "how does one become Christian"?
That is really the WRONG question. You should have asked
"how does one become saved". Nevertheless... I will answer
the question you asked.

One becomes a "Christian" when they declare they follow
Christ (and normally they would join a church). However,
that DOES NOT MEAN that new "Christian" is really saved.

Your confusion simply knows no bounds.

A Christian is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Any other questions I can answer for you?

No thanks. Your answers so far have told me all I need to know about your knowledge level of Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

5thKingdom said:
So you are saying that everyone who calls themselves "Christian" are really SAVED?

Of course NOT. I've been clear. So, what's your problem?

Only those who have trusted Christ as their Savior are Christians. No one else.

Many claim to be Christians. And many who claim so aren't.

Are you serious? Look what happens to those who CLAIM to be "Christian"... those who call Jesus their "Lord".

Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,
have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast
out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And
then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity.[/QUOTE]
Why do you assume any of these people are Christians? They are religious, of course. But since they base their appeal for getting into the kingdom on their WORKS, they are OBVIOUSLY NOT Christians. They are not saved.

The biggest clue, after no mention of faith in Christ, is what Jesus said to them: "I never knew you." He would certainly know His own.

Luk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not
be able. When once the master of the house is risen up,
and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without,
and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence
ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in
thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say,
I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me,
all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing
of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and
all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves
thrust out.

This isn't about salvation at all, but since you just don't understand what makes one a Christian in the first place, I see no benefit in trying to explain this passage to you.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't need to address the other parables that you quoted, but it's clear you think parables are events that have happened. They are stories that have principles to learn from.

No... some parables have already happened and others
(like God casing unsaved men into the Lake of Fire) are future.

But the POINT is that parables are also prophecies about
REAL EVENTS... regardless of what you pretend.
And this reality is common knowledge.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course NOT. I've been clear. So, what's your problem?
Only those who have trusted Christ as their Savior are Christians. No one else. Many claim to be Christians. And many who claim so aren't.
.

That is YOUR (false) doctrine.
That is NOT the doctrine of Jesus or the Apostles.

They were very clear that MANY in the church (i.e., "Christians")
are really "children of Satan"

Now, you do not have to LIKE what the Bible teaches
and you do not have to ACCEPT what the Bible teaches
but that does not NEGATE what the Bible teaches.

Question;
Since the church consists of both saved "wheat" and
unsaved "tares"... how can you pretend that ONLY the
"wheat" are Christians?

Question:
If there are (as Jesus said) "wolves in sheep's clothing
in the church... how can you pretend that ONLY the "wheat"
are Christians?

2Co 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into
an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his ministers also be transformed as the ministers
of righteousness; whose end shall be according
to their works.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
This isn't about salvation at all, but since you just don't understand what makes one a Christian in the first place, I see no benefit in trying to explain this passage to you.

So you think that Luke 13:23-28 is NOT about salvation.
That is just hilarious.

Luk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not
be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and
hath shut to the door, [this is the Final Harvest] and ye begin
to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord,
open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know
you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have
eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our
streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence
ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you assume any of these people are Christians? They are religious, of course. But since they base their appeal for getting into the kingdom on their WORKS, they are OBVIOUSLY NOT Christians. They are not saved. The biggest clue, after no mention of faith in Christ, is what Jesus said to them: "I never knew you." He would certainly know His own..

They are "Christians" because
(1) they are in the church and
(2) they call Jesus their Lord and
(3) they claim to be saved.

Listen, your problem is very obvious.
Even though JESUS TAUGHT the church consists of BOTH
unsaved "tares" and saved "wheat"... you want to pretend
that people calling themselves "christian" and unsaved people
IN THE CHURCH are not "christian" then you are only
contradicting what JESUS TAUGHT.

You want to say ONLY the elect are Christian when there
are MANY verses talking about UNSAVED Christians.

You do not have to LIKE what the Bible says and you do
not have to ACCEPT what the Bible says... but your own
personal "feelings" can never NEGATE what the Bible says.

.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

I said:
"Only those who have trusted Christ as their Savior are Christians. No one else. Many claim to be Christians. And many who claim so aren't."

5thKingdom said:
That is YOUR (false) doctrine.
That is NOT the doctrine of Jesus or the Apostles.

This clearly demonstrates how unfamiliar you are with Scripture.

They were very clear that MANY in the church (i.e., "Christians")
are really "children of Satan"

Your error is to assume being in a church means they are Christians. That so so false.

Now, you do not have to LIKE what the Bible teaches and you do not have to ACCEPT what the Bible teaches but that does not NEGATE what the Bible teaches.

What I like is the truth. So I do like what the Bible teaches. It's what you believe and teach that isn't the truth. What you teach is contrary to Scripture.

Question;
Since the church consists of both saved "wheat" and
unsaved "tares"... how can you pretend that ONLY the
"wheat" are Christians?

This question is folly. There are only 2 kinds of people: saved and unsaved. I don't care what you call them, but in the passages about "wheat and tares", they are saved and unsaved people, NOT people in a church. That is ridiculous.

Question:
If there are (as Jesus said) "wolves in sheep's clothing
in the church... how can you pretend that ONLY the "wheat" are Christians?

Another question steeped in folly. Why do you pretend that unbelievers in a church are "Christians"? You have no support from Scripture.

2Co 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into
an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if
his ministers also be transformed as the ministers
of righteousness; whose end shall be according
to their works.

False teachers are unsaved unbelievers. They are NOT Christians.

Why can't you fathom that Satan deceives the minds of unbelievers to think they are Christians, and they teach what they think is truth in churches. But that doesn't mean they are "Christians" in ANY sense.

They are just unsaved unbelievers, who claim and think they are a Christian.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

5thKingdom said:
So you think that Luke 13:23-28 is NOT about salvation.
That is just hilarious.

Luk 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not
be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and
hath shut to the door, [this is the Final Harvest] and ye begin
to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord,
open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know
you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have
eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our
streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence
ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

The passage is clearly about who won't be saved. This passage is very similar to Matt 7:21-23. In both passages, the crowd bases their appeal to entering heaven on what they have done. And nothing about believing (trusting) in Christ for salvation.

And both passages note what Jesus said to each crowd: "I never knew you/I know you not whence you are" and "depart from Me, you workers of iniquity".

It really doesn't take a large amount of discernment to see the parallel.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 27, 2020

5thKingdom said:
They are "Christians" because
(1) they are in the church and
(2) they call Jesus their Lord and
(3) they claim to be saved.

NONE of these 3 things makes anyone a "Christian". What folly to think so. Quite absurd. A Christian is someone who HAS believed in Christ for salvation.

You want to say ONLY the elect are Christian when there are MANY verses talking about UNSAVED Christians.

Don't tell me what I "want to say". I'm very clear about what I say. ONLY those who believe in Christ are Christians. Your definition isn't even orthodox.

What denomination accepts your definition of what a Chritian is? Or sect?

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
This question is folly. There are only 2 kinds of people: saved and unsaved. I don't care what you call them, but in the passages about "wheat and tares", they are saved and unsaved people, NOT people in a church. That is ridiculous..

Your argument is with Jesus (not me)
Jesus said there are "wheat and tares" in the "Kingdom of Heaven"
that means (1) they are in the church or (2) they are in heaven.

Since we know that no unsaved "tare" goes to heaven,
that means (in this passage) on the "Kingdom of Heaven"
represents the church. You can't have it both ways...
you can't say the "Kingdom of Heaven" is NOT the
church unless you want to say there are "tares" in heaven.
And THAT really is ridiculous.

Mat 13:24-25
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

BTW... this is not "ridiculous". It only SEEMS that way to you
because (apparently) you were never MEANT to understand
the "Kingdom of Heaven" or the "Kingdom of God".

Mar 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery
of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see,
and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

As I said: Your argument is with Jesus (not with me)

/

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Don't tell me what I "want to say". I'm very clear about what I say. ONLY those who believe in Christ are Christians. Your definition isn't even orthodox.

As I have already explained to you many times...
Your argument is with JESUS (not with me)

It was JESUS who said the "Kingdom of Heaven" contains
BOTH "wheat and tares".

If you say the "Kingdom of Heaven" is NOT the Christian church
then you are teaching that HEAVEN contains unsaved "tares".
It's as simple as that. You can't have it both ways unless
you want to say Jesus was lying...

Mat 13:24-25
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The passage is clearly about who won't be saved. This passage is very similar to Matt 7:21-23. In both passages, the crowd bases their appeal to entering heaven on what they have done. And nothing about believing (trusting) in Christ for salvation.

In both passage they call Him "Lord, Lord"

Do you think Moslems call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Buddhists call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Hindus call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Atheists call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Agnostics call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Humanists call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Pagans call Jesus Lord?
Do you think Satanists call Jesus Lord?

You are embarrassing yourself. You should stop.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:"Only those who have trusted Christ as their Savior are Christians. No one else. Many claim to be Christians. And many who claim so aren't.".

I wonder why all my posts have SCRIPTURE to support my words.
But all your posts only express your "feelings".

Send SCRIPTURE to support your "feelings" or don't bother posting.
I will not be sending you Scriptures to refute your "feelings" any more.

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said......

I am sorry I cannot respond to post #152 because you
did not send any SCRIPTURE... only your "feelings".

.

5thKingdom · Jun 27, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you assume any of these people are Christians? They are religious, of course.

The clue is they called Jesus their LORD.

Do Moslims call Jesus their Lord?
Do Buddhists call Jesus their Lord?
Do Hindus call Jesus their Lord?
Do Atheists call Jesus their Lord?
Do Agnostics call Jesus their Lord?
Do Humanists call Jesus their Lord?
Do Pagans call Jesus their Lord?
Do Satanists call Jesus their Lord?

WHO on earth calls Jesus their LORD besides
the "wheat and tares" in the church?
Please be specific.

.
.

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