How Does Salvation WORK

[5thKingdom]

God doesn't take the church away from a nation and given to other nations. You need to study the meaning of "kingdom of God/heaven".

I am sorry, I cannot respond to your post #178 because
you offer no Scripture... only your "feelings" and that means
LESS than nothing.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

1 Cor 13:11 applies here. And to every post where you copy and paste.

No, 1Co 13:11 is NOT talking about refusing to debate
your "feelings"... how childish for you to pretend otherwise.
You are disrespecting SCRIPTURE to make you "feel" better.
That is like MOCKING God.

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am sorry, I cannot respond to your post #178 because
you offer no Scripture... only your "feelings" and that means
LESS than nothing.

1 Cor 13:11 is necessary.

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

It's time to put childhood behind.

Now, please address my posts in an adult manner. Otherwise, no need to keep revealing your inner child.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, 1Co 13:11 is NOT talking about refusing to debate
your "feelings"... how childish for you to pretend otherwise.
You are disrespecting SCRIPTURE to make you "feel" better.
That is like MOCKING God.

Your phony judgmental comments don't help you in any way. I've never made this about what I or you "feel". In fact, I don't care what anyone feels when they read these posts.

All I care about is the truth, which is from Scripture.

And you still haven't proven your claims and opinions from Scripture.

1 Cor 13:11 is about childish reactions to what others post. Like what you do.

 

[5thKingdom]

Your phony judgmental comments don't help you in any way. I've never made this about what I or you "feel". In fact, I don't care what anyone feels when they read these posts.

All I care about is the truth, which is from Scripture.

And you still haven't proven your claims and opinions from Scripture.

1 Cor 13:11 is about childish reactions to what others post. Like what you do.

Say what you will about me personally.
The POINT is that you continue to express your "feelings"
(or opinion) without presenting any Scriptural support.
We cannot have a meaningful discussion in that manner.

I am willing to have discussions with you but I expect you
to present SCRIPTURES with your comments. I cannot
argue points made without Biblical support.

Finally, we cannot have a discussion when I present
SCRIPTURES like Matthew 21:43 and you simply DENY
the passage. Or when I present SCRIPTURES like Matthew
22:2-7 and 22:8-14 and you refuse to identify WHO is the subject
of those passages.

If you want an honest discussion then I am willing to continue.
But you MUST address the passages I offer and not just
ignore them to assert your personal beliefs.

Is that fair enough?

Jim

.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Say what you will about me personally. The POINT is that you continue to express your "feelings" (or opinion) without presenting any Scriptural support.

I express what the Word of God SAYS. If you call that "feelings", well then, that's your problem.

[QUTOE]We cannot have a meaningful discussion in that manner.[/QUOTE]
The reason we can't have a meaningful discussion is your failure to understand what I post and your rather unbiblical views.

Finally, we cannot have a discussion when I present SCRIPTURES like Matthew 21:43 and you simply DENY the passage.

Well, now you're just LYING. Please provide the post # where I "denied" that verse, or any other verse. I'll wait.

Or when I present SCRIPTURES like Matthew 22:2-7 and 22:8-14 and you refuse to identify WHO is the subject of those passages.

Again, just another LIE unless you can prove your claim by providing the post # where I supposedly refused anything.

If you want an honest discussion then I am willing to continue.

If you're going to continue to LIE so much, there is no reason to continue.

But I'm willing to wait for actual post #s that support your claims that I charge as FALSE.

But you MUST address the passages I offer and not just ignore them to assert your personal beliefs.

Just stop it, ok? I don't ignore anything.

Is that fair enough?

How are you being fair with so much LYING going on?

 

[TibiasDad]

I grew up in church, and I understand that His death and the resurrection are essential to salvation, but I have been asked before and have even asked myself the same question.

"HOW does it WORK, though."

Why is it that the death fo Jesus on the cross and His subsequent resurrection is enough to atone for not only MY sins but EVERYONE ELSES?

Edit:
Perhaps a deeper explanation of my question is needed. Logically speaking, how does it work. Some of you have quoted scripture stating that it works, but I am not asking to be told THAT it works, but HOW it works. WHY was His death and resurrection enough?

Hi, Christian; welcome to CF.

This is my perspective on how and why the death and resurrection of Christ works and is sufficient.

First of all, since sin is ultimately against God, the standard of satisfaction is solely his providence to determine. That Christ's death and resurrection are stated to be the means of achieving this satisfaction, the how and why questions are not necessary for us to comprehend in order for salvation to be effectual; in other words, we don't need to know how and why, we just need to believe that God said it is sufficient and is the exclusive means of salvation. (Acts 4:12)

Secondly, Christ blood of Christ is sufficient because he is an infinite being of infinite worth and thus an infinite sacrifice for all the sins for which it was intended, which are the sins of the whole world. (1John 2:1-2)

How this sacrifice works depends on which theory of the atonement you assume. For me, the Christ's blood was shed as a demonstration of God's justice and wrath toward sin (Rom 3:26), and thus offers a means of forgiveness for our sins when we repent and believe in Christ's death in our behalf. (1John 1:9)

Now, the resurrection is sufficient because death is sin's ultimate weapon, and humanity's ultimate enemy. (1Cor 15) Only the eternal life (1John 1:2) and source of our lives (Gen 2:7) is capable of overcoming that which kills and restoring life to its intended nature, eternal vitality. The ultimate sovereignty of God is the final reason o
for the sufficiency over the resurrection (and the atonement as well) simply because there is no power that can overthrow or prevent God from accomplishing that which is wills to accomplish. In other words, his word is final!

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

Hi, Christian; welcome to CF.

This is my perspective on how and why the death and resurrection of Christ works and is sufficient.

First of all, since sin is ultimately against God, the standard of satisfaction is solely his providence to determine. That Christ's death and resurrection are stated to be the means of achieving this satisfaction, the how and why questions are not necessary for us to comprehend in order for salvation to be effectual; in other words, we don't need to know how and why, we just need to believe that God said it is sufficient and is the exclusive means of salvation. (Acts 4:12)

Secondly, Christ blood of Christ is sufficient because he is an infinite being of infinite worth and thus an infinite sacrifice for all the sins for which it was intended, which are the sins of the whole world. (1John 2:1-2)

How this sacrifice works depends on which theory of the atonement you assume. For me, the Christ's blood was shed as a demonstration of God's justice and wrath toward sin (Rom 3:26), and thus offers a means of forgiveness for our sins when we repent and believe in Christ's death in our behalf. (1John 1:9)

Now, the resurrection is sufficient because death is sin's ultimate weapon, and humanity's ultimate enemy. (1Cor 15) Only the eternal life (1John 1:2) and source of our lives (Gen 2:7) is capable of overcoming that which kills and restoring life to its intended nature, eternal vitality. The ultimate sovereignty of God is the final reason o
for the sufficiency over the resurrection (and the atonement as well) simply because there is no power that can overthrow or prevent God from accomplishing that which is wills to accomplish. In other words, his word is final!

Doug

(1) I see the HOW simpler than the explanation above.
God's righteous judgment is EACH sin requires punishment,
which is eternity in hell. So Christ suffered the equivalent
of an eternity in hell for EACH SIN of "His Sheep". Since
He did that ALL of those specific sins were covered and
the elect had EACH SIN paid by the Atonement and were
no longer obligated to pay for ANY SIN they committed
during their life.


(2) Of course, from a practical matter that means each
of His Sheep required a different Atonement. If a baby
or young person only committed 100 sins, each of those
was paid. If an old man committed 100,000 sins then his
Atonement was greater than the child since many more
sins were paid. I see NOTHING in the Bible about Christ
paying for the sins of those who are "children of Satan"
or those who are NOT "His Sheep". (more on that below)


(3) I do not see the Atonement as beginning at the cross
because we are taught that Christ would spend 3 days and
3 nights in the "heart of the earth".


Mat_12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in
the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Obviously, if Christ died on Friday and rose Sunday morning:
that would equal 3 days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) but
it would only equal 2 nights (Friday night and Saturday night).
Therefore the only Biblical explanation is the Atonement was
started in the Garden on Thursday night... which is indicated
when the Word says (a) Christ was suffering the "cup" of
God's Wrath in Thursday night (b) which resulted in Christ
being "in agony" and (c) this is shown as it were He sweat
"great drops of blood falling down to the ground".


Luk 22:42-44
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared
an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in
an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were
great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


So the Atonement was Christ becoming the "propitiation" for
"our" sins ("our" meaning the elect, in a "particular" Atonement).
So the Atonement (a) was for 3 days and 3 nights and (b) it paid
the penalty for EACH SIN committed by His sheep... as Christ
became the "propitiation" for "our" (the elect's) sins.


1Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us,
and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


So the HOW is pretty simple, Christ PAID for each sin of all
of His sheep. The debt was PAID and, therefore, there is
no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. For whom
He did foreknow He did "predestinate" to be conformed into
the image of Jesus. And whom He "predestinated" them He
also "called" and whom He "called", them He "justified" and
whom He "justified", them He also "glorified" [Rom 8:28-31]


Now, the question arises... does the Bible not say that Christ
PAID for the sins of the whole world? Of course, the answer
is yes... when we understand the phrase "whole world" means
BOTH Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = whole world). Which
is why Christ spoke of "other sheep" besides the Jews only...
"whole world" cannot include those not "predestinated" or
those not "called" or those not "justified" or not "glorified"


1Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world [both Jew and Gentile].


If we try to make "the whole world" mean everyone ever born
then we run into a few problems; (a) if a sin is PAID then what
are those in the Hell paying for? The SAME SIN already PAID?
There is no indication in the Bible that any sin be paid TWICE, so
that theory cannot stand and (b) if a sin is PAID but conditional
on the person "accepting" that payment then the sin was never
really PAID, and man becomes his own savior by "choosing" to
be covered by the Atonement and that theory cannot stand or
(c) the ONLY SIN that man pays is the SINGLE SIN of never
"accepting" or "choosing" Christ as His Savior... and the Bible
teaches that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father
"draws" him and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come".


So, from the practical standpoint, because of original sin, we all
are born spiritually DEAD and will not seek God [Rom 3:10-12],
No, not even one will seek God. So God "elects" who He will
"draw" before the foundation of the world - not by any good or
evil those men would commit but solely by "Him that Calleth"
[Rom 9:11]. Christ PAID the sins of His sheep and, at some
point in that man's life, God "draws" those elect unto Himself.


Therefore the Bible can (and does) teach that any (real) act
of repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
Making GOD Sovereign and salvation by Grace alone. Now,
the question becomes, did Christ "lighteth" every man that
ever came into the world?


Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.


And, of course, the answer is yes... even those who rejected
God and even those who never heard the Jewish or Christian
Gospel. The Bible is clear that men are made so that each of
us instinctively KNOWS there is a God [Rom 1:18-23] but, as
shown elsewhere in the Bible, NO MAN will ever come to God,
unless God specifically "draws" them and ALL MEN God draws
"shall come" to Christ - and He will lose NONE of His sheep.


The HOW of salvation is pretty simple: God "elects/predestinates"
those He will save, and Christ PAID for EACH of their particular sins,
and (at some point in their lives) God "draws/calls" them to Christ,
then "sanctifies", "justifies" and "glorifies" EACH of those elect.


Jim
.

 

[TibiasDad]

(1) I see the HOW simpler than the explanation above.
God's righteous judgment is EACH sin requires punishment,
which is eternity in hell. So Christ suffered the equivalent
of an eternity in hell for EACH SIN of "His Sheep". Since
He did that ALL of those specific sins were covered and
the elect had EACH SIN paid by the Atonement and were
no longer obligated to pay for ANY SIN they committed
during their life.


(2) Of course, from a practical matter that means each
of His Sheep required a different Atonement. If a baby
or young person only committed 100 sins, each of those
was paid. If an old man committed 100,000 sins then his
Atonement was greater than the child since many more
sins were paid. I see NOTHING in the Bible about Christ
paying for the sins of those who are "children of Satan"
or those who are NOT "His Sheep". (more on that below)


(3) I do not see the Atonement as beginning at the cross
because we are taught that Christ would spend 3 days and
3 nights in the "heart of the earth".


Mat_12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in
the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Obviously, if Christ died on Friday and rose Sunday morning:
that would equal 3 days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) but
it would only equal 2 nights (Friday night and Saturday night).
Therefore the only Biblical explanation is the Atonement was
started in the Garden on Thursday night... which is indicated
when the Word says (a) Christ was suffering the "cup" of
God's Wrath in Thursday night (b) which resulted in Christ
being "in agony" and (c) this is shown as it were He sweat
"great drops of blood falling down to the ground".


Luk 22:42-44
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared
an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in
an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were
great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


So the Atonement was Christ becoming the "propitiation" for
"our" sins ("our" meaning the elect, in a "particular" Atonement).
So the Atonement (a) was for 3 days and 3 nights and (b) it paid
the penalty for EACH SIN committed by His sheep... as Christ
became the "propitiation" for "our" (the elect's) sins.


1Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us,
and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


So the HOW is pretty simple, Christ PAID for each sin of all
of His sheep. The debt was PAID and, therefore, there is
no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. For whom
He did foreknow He did "predestinate" to be conformed into
the image of Jesus. And whom He "predestinated" them He
also "called" and whom He "called", them He "justified" and
whom He "justified", them He also "glorified" [Rom 8:28-31]


Now, the question arises... does the Bible not say that Christ
PAID for the sins of the whole world? Of course, the answer
is yes... when we understand the phrase "whole world" means
BOTH Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = whole world). Which
is why Christ spoke of "other sheep" besides the Jews only...
"whole world" cannot include those not "predestinated" or
those not "called" or those not "justified" or not "glorified"


1Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world [both Jew and Gentile].


If we try to make "the whole world" mean everyone ever born
then we run into a few problems; (a) if a sin is PAID then what
are those in the Hell paying for? The SAME SIN already PAID?
There is no indication in the Bible that any sin be paid TWICE, so
that theory cannot stand and (b) if a sin is PAID but conditional
on the person "accepting" that payment then the sin was never
really PAID, and man becomes his own savior by "choosing" to
be covered by the Atonement and that theory cannot stand or
(c) the ONLY SIN that man pays is the SINGLE SIN of never
"accepting" or "choosing" Christ as His Savior... and the Bible
teaches that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father
"draws" him and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come".


So, from the practical standpoint, because of original sin, we all
are born spiritually DEAD and will not seek God [Rom 3:10-12],
No, not even one will seek God. So God "elects" who He will
"draw" before the foundation of the world - not by any good or
evil those men would commit but solely by "Him that Calleth"
[Rom 9:11]. Christ PAID the sins of His sheep and, at some
point in that man's life, God "draws" those elect unto Himself.


Therefore the Bible can (and does) teach that any (real) act
of repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
Making GOD Sovereign and salvation by Grace alone. Now,
the question becomes, did Christ "lighteth" every man that
ever came into the world?


Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.


And, of course, the answer is yes... even those who rejected
God and even those who never heard the Jewish or Christian
Gospel. The Bible is clear that men are made so that each of
us instinctively KNOWS there is a God [Rom 1:18-23] but, as
shown elsewhere in the Bible, NO MAN will ever come to God,
unless God specifically "draws" them and ALL MEN God draws
"shall come" to Christ - and He will lose NONE of His sheep.


The HOW of salvation is pretty simple: God "elects/predestinates"
those He will save, and Christ PAID for EACH of their particular sins,
and (at some point in their lives) God "draws/calls" them to Christ,
then "sanctifies", "justifies" and "glorifies" EACH of those elect.


Jim
.

My post was an answer to a question from Christian Jacocks, and not a theological debate about which particular viewpoint is more correct. If Christian has questions for me regarding my response I will be happy to answer him, but I am not looking for a debate on this, I can live with the fact we believe the other one to be incorrect and leave it at that.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

The HOW of salvation is pretty simple: God "elects/predestinates" those He will save, and Christ PAID for EACH of their particular sins, and (at some point in their lives) God "draws/calls" them to Christ, then "sanctifies", "justifies" and "glorifies" EACH of those elect.
Jim
.

Please share ANY verse that says one is elected to salvation. I dare you to.

The singular purpose of election is to be chosen for service. Every example in Scripture of people being elected was for a purpose. None were sasid to be chosen for salvation.

Here is just one example that supports my claim.

1 Cor 1-
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

 

[5thKingdom]

My post was an answer to a question from Christian Jacocks, and not a theological debate about which particular viewpoint is more correct. If Christian has questions for me regarding my response I will be happy to answer him, but I am not looking for a debate on this, I can live with the fact we believe the other one to be incorrect and leave it at that.

Doug

But, of course, MY POST was showing Christian Jacocks
an alternative view (to yours) about HOW salvation works.
I am not interested in getting into a theological debate with you,
and made no comment to indicate any such desire. Surely you do
not think that only you can express your viewpoint to Christian.
I did not ask you to respond to me or comment on my post.

.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I grew up in church, and I understand that His death and the resurrection are essential to salvation, but I have been asked before and have even asked myself the same question.

"HOW does it WORK, though."

Why is it that the death fo Jesus on the cross and His subsequent resurrection is enough to atone for not only MY sins but EVERYONE ELSES?

Edit:
Perhaps a deeper explanation of my question is needed. Logically speaking, how does it work. Some of you have quoted scripture stating that it works, but I am not asking to be told THAT it works, but HOW it works. WHY was His death and resurrection enough?

Leviticus 17:11 talks about how the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Jesus had shed His blood for us because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (See: Hebrews 9:22).

God is love (1 John 4:8);
And Jesus is God (John 20:28) (1 John 5:7 KJV) (John 1:1).

And the Scriptures say: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13).

Jesus loved us so much that He laid down his life for us.

It would be no different than a father pushing his son out of the way of a fast moving car whereby the father took the place for his son. God loved us so much that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish (John 3:16).

But why did Jesus have to die?

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22).

See, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
So Jesus needed to pay the price for our sins and to reconcile us back to God the Father.

Jesus needed to rise from the grave because without the resurrection, we will would remain dead forever in our sinful state without a resurrection of our own (i.e. without a new life or fresh start). The resurrection of Jesus makes it possible for our Lord to one day resurrect us by the power and likeness of His resurrection so that we can spend all eternity with Him in His beautiful kingdom.

As for your comment that the Lord died for you and not others:

Well, Calvinists believe that way. It's called Limited Atonement and it is not biblical. The Bible teaches Provisional Atonement.

Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

In fact, in total, the Bible talks about 4 different aspects of salvation. If you are interested, you can check them out here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

May God bless you;
And I hope that what I said was helpful to you.

 

[5thKingdom]

Leviticus 17:11 talks about how the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Jesus had shed His blood for us because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (See: Hebrews 9:22).

God is love (1 John 4:8);
And Jesus is God (John 20:28) (1 John 5:7 KJV) (John 1:1).

And the Scriptures say: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13).

Jesus loved us so much that He laid down his life for us.

It would be no different than a father pushing his son out of the way of a fast moving car whereby the father took the place for his son. God loved us so much that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish (John 3:16).

But why did Jesus have to die?

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22).

See, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
So Jesus needed to pay the price for our sins and to reconcile us back to God the Father.

Jesus needed to rise from the grave because without the resurrection, we will would remain dead forever in our sinful state without a resurrection of our own (i.e. without a new life or fresh start). The resurrection of Jesus makes it possible for our Lord to one day resurrect us by the power and likeness of His resurrection so that we can spend all eternity with Him in His beautiful kingdom.

As for your comment that the Lord died for you and not others:

Well, Calvinists believe that way. It's called Limited Atonement and it is not biblical. The Bible teaches Provisional Atonement.

Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

In fact, in total, the Bible talks about 4 different aspects of salvation. If you are interested, you can check them out here:

The Four Aspects of Salvation.

May God bless you;
And I hope that what I said was helpful to you.

(1) I see the HOW simpler than the explanation above.
God's righteous judgment is EACH sin requires punishment,
which is eternity in hell. So Christ suffered the equivalent
of an eternity in hell for EACH SIN of "His Sheep". Since
He did that ALL of those specific sins were covered and
the elect had EACH SIN paid by the Atonement and were
no longer obligated to pay for ANY SIN they committed
during their life.


(2) Of course, from a practical matter that means each
of His Sheep required a different Atonement. If a baby
or young person only committed 100 sins, each of those
was paid. If an old man committed 100,000 sins then his
Atonement was greater than the child since many more
sins were paid. I see NOTHING in the Bible about Christ
paying for the sins of those who are "children of Satan"
or those who are NOT "His Sheep". (more on that below)


(3) I do not see the Atonement as beginning at the cross
because we are taught that Christ would spend 3 days and
3 nights in the "heart of the earth".


Mat_12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in
the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Obviously, if Christ died on Friday and rose Sunday morning:
that would equal 3 days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) but
it would only equal 2 nights (Friday night and Saturday night).
Therefore the only Biblical explanation is the Atonement was
started in the Garden on Thursday night... which is indicated
when the Word says (a) Christ was suffering the "cup" of
God's Wrath in Thursday night (b) which resulted in Christ
being "in agony" and (c) this is shown as it were He sweat
"great drops of blood falling down to the ground".


Luk 22:42-44
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared
an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in
an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were
great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


So the Atonement was Christ becoming the "propitiation" for
"our" sins ("our" meaning the elect, in a "particular" Atonement).
So the Atonement (a) was for 3 days and 3 nights and (b) it paid
the penalty for EACH SIN committed by His sheep... as Christ
became the "propitiation" for "our" (the elect's) sins.


1Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us,
and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


So the HOW is pretty simple, Christ PAID for each sin of all
of His sheep. The debt was PAID and, therefore, there is
no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. For whom
He did foreknow He did "predestinate" to be conformed into
the image of Jesus. And whom He "predestinated" them He
also "called" and whom He "called", them He "justified" and
whom He "justified", them He also "glorified" [Rom 8:28-31]


Now, the question arises... does the Bible not say that Christ
PAID for the sins of the whole world? Of course, the answer
is yes... when we understand the phrase "whole world" means
BOTH Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = whole world). Which
is why Christ spoke of "other sheep" besides the Jews only...
"whole world" cannot include those not "predestinated" or
those not "called" or those not "justified" or not "glorified"


1Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world [both Jew and Gentile].


If we try to make "the whole world" mean everyone ever born
then we run into a few problems; (a) if a sin is PAID then what
are those in the Hell paying for? The SAME SIN already PAID?
There is no indication in the Bible that any sin be paid TWICE, so
that theory cannot stand and (b) if a sin is PAID but conditional
on the person "accepting" that payment then the sin was never
really PAID, and man becomes his own savior by "choosing" to
be covered by the Atonement and that theory cannot stand or
(c) the ONLY SIN that man pays is the SINGLE SIN of never
"accepting" or "choosing" Christ as His Savior... and the Bible
teaches that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father
"draws" him and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come".


So, from the practical standpoint, because of original sin, we all
are born spiritually DEAD and will not seek God [Rom 3:10-12],
No, not even one will seek God. So God "elects" who He will
"draw" before the foundation of the world - not by any good or
evil those men would commit but solely by "Him that Calleth"
[Rom 9:11]. Christ PAID the sins of His sheep and, at some
point in that man's life, God "draws" those elect unto Himself.


Therefore the Bible can (and does) teach that any (real) act
of repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
Making GOD Sovereign and salvation by Grace alone. Now,
the question becomes, did Christ "lighteth" every man that
ever came into the world?


Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.


And, of course, the answer is yes... even those who rejected
God and even those who never heard the Jewish or Christian
Gospel. The Bible is clear that men are made so that each of
us instinctively KNOWS there is a God [Rom 1:18-23] but, as
shown elsewhere in the Bible, NO MAN will ever come to God,
unless God specifically "draws" them and ALL MEN God draws
"shall come" to Christ - and He will lose NONE of His sheep.


The HOW of salvation is pretty simple: God "elects/predestinates"
those He will save, and Christ PAID for EACH of their particular sins,
and (at some point in their lives) God "draws/calls" them to Christ,
then "sanctifies", "justifies" and "glorifies" EACH of those elect.


Jim
.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

All five points of Calvinism are highly unbiblical. Limited Atonement is one of these five points. Calvin's point on “Limited Atonement” essentially says that Jesus did not die for the sins of the entire world, but that He died only for the sin's of the Elect (true genuine believers only). This is simply not true. Here are...

Provisional Atonement Verses That Refutes Limited Atonement:

* “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away
the sin of the world.” (John 1:29).

* “And he is the propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) (Note:* words in blue within grey brackets is my commentary to the text).

* “Who gave himself
a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
(1 Timothy 2:6).

* “To wit [that is to say], that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself,...” (2 Corinthians 5:19) (Note:* words in blue within grey brackets is my commentary to the text).​

If one believes in Limited Atonement, then the following words below cannot be believed at face value:

1. the world.
2. the whole world.
3. all (Note: Yes, I am aware that “all” does not always mean “all” in the Bible, but based on the testimony of the whole counsel of God's Word; The word “all” means “all” in this instance).​

How do we know for sure that Jesus really did die for the sins of the WHOLE world and not just a select few or the Elect body of believers only?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

Not sure if you caught what it said in this verse. Those who perish are perishing because:

(a) They received not the love of the truth.
(b) that they MIGHT BE saved.​

Here is the word “might” in a dictionary.

Might:
aux.v.
Past tense of may

1. Used to express possibility or probability: It might snow tomorrow.

Source:
Might dictionary definition | might defined

So those who perish (the wicked) might be saved. This is only possible if Jesus died for their sins. Romans 5:6-8 says that Christ died for the ungodly, and Christ died for us. Calvinism says that the reason the wicked perish is because God elected them to reprobation (i.e. He chose them to be damned against their own free will choice). Yet, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason they perish is because they received not the love of the truth. That is the reason why they perish. This is why Calvinism is ridiculous. It completely ignores the plain meaning of words in our Bible.

2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

In Calvinism: the gospel is not the good news because God has elected many to reprobation to damnation. The gospel is only the good news for the chosen few that God has elected. In Calvinism: God does not care about anyone else. But John 3:16 says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish.

John 3:16 does not say that WHOSOEVER He force regenerates and chooses against their will to be saved shall not perish. It doesn't say that. It says “WHOSOEVER believes.”

 

[5thKingdom]

.”

(1) Obviously the world has a problem. That problem is
sin. God's righteous judgment requires punishment, for
EACH sin committed. So Christ suffered the equivalent
of an eternity in hell for EACH SIN of "His Sheep". Since
He did that ALL of those specific sins were covered and
the elect had EACH SIN paid by the Atonement and were
no longer obligated to pay for ANY SIN they committed
during their life.


(2) Of course, from a practical matter that means each
of His Sheep required a different Atonement. If a baby
or young person only committed 100 sins, each of those
was paid. If an old man committed 100,000 sins then his
Atonement was greater than the child since many more
sins were paid. There is NOTHING in the Bible about Christ
paying for the sins of those who are "children of Satan"
or those who are NOT "His Sheep". (more on that below)


(3) Christ's Atonement DID NOT beginning at the cross
because we are taught that Christ would spend 3 days
and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth".


Mat 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in
the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Obviously, if Christ died on Friday and rose Sunday morning:
that would equal 3 days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday) but
it would only equal 2 nights (Friday night and Saturday night).
Therefore the only Biblical explanation is the Atonement was
started in the Garden on Thursday night... which is indicated
when the Word says (a) Christ was suffering the "cup" of
God's Wrath in Thursday night (b) which resulted in Christ
being "in agony" and (c) this is shown as it were He sweat
"great drops of blood falling down to the ground".


Luk 22:42-44
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared
an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in
an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it
were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


(4) So the Atonement was Christ becoming the "propitiation" for
"our" sins ("our" meaning the elect, in a "particular" Atonement).
So the Atonement (a) was for 3 days and 3 nights and (b) it paid
the penalty for EACH SIN committed by "His sheep"... as Christ
became the "propitiation" for "our" (the elect's) sins.


1Jn 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us,
and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


So the HOW is pretty simple, Christ PAID for each sin of all
of "His sheep". The debt was PAID and, therefore, there is
no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. For whom
He did foreknow He did "predestinate" to be conformed into
the image of Jesus. And whom He "predestinated" them He
also "called" and whom He "called", them He "justified" and
whom He "justified", them He also "glorified" [Rom 8:28-31]


(5) Now, the question arises... does the Bible say that Christ
PAID for the sins of the whole world? Of course, the answer
is yes... when we understand the phrase "whole world" means
BOTH Jew and Gentile (Jew + Gentile = whole world). Which
is why Christ spoke of "other sheep" besides the Jews only...
"whole world" cannot include those not "predestinated" or
those not "called" or those not "justified" or not "glorified"


1Jn 2:1-2
My little children [the elect], these things write I unto you,
that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate
with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the
propitiation for our sins: and not for ours [Jews] only, but
also for the sins of the whole world. [Jew and Gentile]


If we try to make "the whole world" mean everyone ever born
then we run into a few problems; (a) if a sin is PAID then what
are those in the Hell paying for? The SAME SIN already PAID?
There is no indication in the Bible that any sin be paid TWICE, so
that theory cannot stand and (b) if a sin is PAID but conditional
on the person "accepting" that payment then the sin was never
really PAID, and man becomes his own savior by "choosing" to
be covered by the Atonement and that theory cannot stand or
(c) the ONLY SIN that man pays is the SINGLE SIN of never
"accepting" or "choosing" Christ as His Savior... and the Bible
teaches that NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father
"draws" him and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come".
[John 6:44 and 6:37]


(6) From the practical standpoint, because of original sin, we all
are born spiritually DEAD and will not seek God [Rom 3:10-12],
No, not even one will seek God. So God "elects" who He will
"draw" before the foundation of the world - not by any good or
evil those men would commit but solely by "Him that Calleth"
[Rom 9:11]. Christ PAID the sins of "His sheep" and, at some
point in that man's life, God "draws" those elect unto Himself.


Therefore the Bible can (and does) teach that any (real) act
of repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
Making GOD Sovereign and salvation by Grace alone. We are
saved by "faith" and that "faith" is NOT from ourselves, it is a
entirely a GIFT from God (so that no man can boast).


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that [faith is]
NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works,
lest any man should boast.


Imagine if faith was NOT a GIFT from God... that it was from
a man deciding to "accept" Jesus or say a sinner's prayer or
make an altar call, or decide to "believe" in Jesus... then we
could BOAST to all the unsaved in eternal torment that they
should have been as wise as us - to make the right decision
and save themselves. That's just a ridiculous "works gospel"


(7) HOW salvation works is simple: God "elects/predestinates"
those He will save, and Christ PAID for EACH of their particular sins,
and (at some point in their lives) God "draws/calls" them to Christ,
He then "sanctifies", "justifies" and "glorifies" EACH of those elect.


Now, some people have a problem in discerning the CONTEXT
of a passage. When someone cannot discern the context of
Scripture they have no chance of understanding the MEANING
of that Scripture.


Joh 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him,
and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away
the sin of the world. [both Jew and Gentile]


Remember, before Jesus came God was saving ONLY Jews.
After Jesus came God was saving BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Jew + Gentile = the world.


1Jn 2:1-2
My little children [the elect], these things write I unto you,
that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate
with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the
propitiation for our sins: and not for ours [Jews] only, but
also for the sins of the whole world. [Jew and Gentile]


Obviously the CONTEXT of "My little children" does NOT
include Pagans and heathen and infidels. To pretend the
context of this passage includes every man on earth is
to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding.


1Ti 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Obviously the word "all" above could mean every man ever
born... or it could mean "all of His Sheep". If we contend that
it means every man ever born then we have the PROBLEM
described in #5 above.


2Co 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us [the elect]
to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us [the elect]
the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world [both Jew and Gentile] unto himself,
not imputing their [the elect's] trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us [the elect] the word of reconciliation.


Again we see how discernment of CONTEXT is critical when
attempting to understand the MEANING of Scripture. In the
passage above the words "us" either means the elect or it
means all Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics,
Secular Humanists, Pagans, Satanists, etc. And that theory
does not even pass the giggle test.


2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he [the Holy Spirit] who now letteth [restrains]
will let [will restrain], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that wicked [Antichrist] be revealed, whom
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose
coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs
and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness
in them [foolish virgins] that perish; because they [foolish virgins]
received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them [foolish virgins] strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be
damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in
unrighteousness.


The CONTEXT of the passage is the "revealing" of the Antichrist
(Man of Sin) who rules over the "ten virgins" during the Great
Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] During that
period the Man of Sin is revealed to the "wise virgins" but God
sends the "foolish virgins" a "strong delusion" so that they will
continue to follow the Antichrist during the Second Revelation
Beast. Again, if we cannot discern the CONTEXT of Scripture
we have no hope of understanding the MEANING of Scripture.


In the case above... these events are not even happening during
the Great Commission of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"...
instead, the events happen to the "ten virgins" living during the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven". And yet, some fools
want to pretend they understand the meaning of the passage
when they do not even understand WHEN it happens or WHO
are involved. Fortunately for them, "ignorance is bliss".


Jim
.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already made my case for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.

2 Thessalonians 2:10. The reason why the wicked perish is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.​

Logic dictates that if they MIGHT be saved, then that means that Jesus died for their sins.

That is what it says. Believe it, or don't believe it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Now, somebody can keep pushing Calvinism if they want, but if a person simply believes their Bible (like believing this verse above here), they will see that Calvinism is simply not biblical.

 

[5thKingdom]

2 Thessalonians 2:10. The reason why the wicked perish is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.​

In the case above... these events are not even happening during
the Great Commission of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"...
instead, the events happen to the "ten virgins" living during the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven". Yet, some "teachers"
try to pretend that they understand the meaning of the passage
when they do not even understand WHEN it happens or WHO
is involved.


When someone does not even understand WHO is the context
of the passage (the "ten virgins" or the LAST "wheat and tares")
or WHEN the event occurs (Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven")
then not only can they not understand the MEANING of the verses
but they demonstrate they are not qualified or capable of ever
"teaching" on the passage.


It is not possible for the "foolish virgins" of the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] to ever be saved because
the Great Commission is FINISHED and all the Saints are "sealed"
BEFORE the Great Tribulation ever begins.


Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees,
till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make
war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


How embarrassing is it to "teach" on a passage when you
do not understand WHO is the context of the passage or
WHEN the events occur (after all the Saints are "sealed")


2Th 2:11-12
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Some are actually teaching the "foolish virgins" in the passage
above could be saved... when the passage says that GOD sends
them a "strong delusion" so they CANNOT be saved. That they
might be DAMNED. Talk about not having a clue on what you are
"teaching" about.


.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 did not change in what it stated. The context does not change the words in the verse. It says that that they perish because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE saved. It's not possible in Calvinism for the wicked to perish because they receive not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE saved.

2 Peter 2:1 also confirms this truth. There are false teachers denying that the Lord has BOUGHT THEM. How can false teachers be bought by the Lord unless Provisional Atonement was true?