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d taylor

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In Genesis when Adam sinned, God chose blood as the method to bring man back in line with God. God could have chose, i guess, anything but God chose blood.

So to pay that price of blood God had to take on a human body so He could pay the blood price. And since God can not die the only way to pay the blood price was for God to become human and die.

Notice that blood sacrifice of Jesus took away the sin of the world. So when unbelievers die in their unbelief and are judged at the Great White throne.

It is not their sin (because Jesus paid the sin price at the cross) that condemns them to the lake of fire but their lack of having accepted the free gift of Gods Eternal Life. By trusting in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I grew up in church, and I understand that His death and the resurrection are essential to salvation, but I have been asked before and have even asked myself the same question.

"HOW does it WORK, though."
Do you mean WHO does the saving? That seems to be your question. It is God the Father who does the saving.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

It is His will that everyone who beholds and believe in His Son will receive eternal life. John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

And it is Jesus Christ who gives the gift of eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Why is it that the death fo Jesus on the cross and His subsequent resurrection is enough to atone for not only MY sins but EVERYONE ELSES?
Because Jesus paid the sin debt for EVERYONE on the cross. But His death and resurrection isn't what saves you or me. God saves people on the basis of grace. This means salvation is non-meritorious. It is by faith.

Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

God's attributes include not only love, but justice. His justice is perfect. And perfect justice demands justice. Jesus paid the debt, which satisfied (atoned) God the Father's justice. That's WHY His death and resurrection is enough. But not just "enough", but WAY MORE than enough.
 
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5thKingdom

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You said (and I quote)
"BY FAITH AND THE PROFESSION OF THAT FAITH"



Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


.
 
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5thKingdom

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---------------

You said (and I quote)
Because Jesus paid the sin debt for EVERYONE on the cross. But His death and resurrection isn't what saves you or me. God saves people on the basis of grace. This means salvation is non-meritorious. It is by faith.



If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYONE (not just "His Sheep")
then WHY are almost everyone destined to PAY for those
(same) sins AGAIN in the Lake-of-Fire?

If the debt is PAID... then it is PAID.
Your argument ends with the doctrine that the ONLY
sin that is PAID by the sinner is not "accepting" Jesus.
But the Bible is very clear the sinner PAYS for every
idle word (even for his sinful thoughts).

Clearly Jesus PAID for the sins of "His Sheep".

If there is a Scripture that says Jesus PAID for the sins
of EVERYONE... please cite chapter and verse.

Note: A passage saying that Jesus paid for the "world"
(meaning both Jew and Gentile) is NOT within the context
of what we are discussing (both saved and unsaved).
You need a passage that says Jesus PAID for those
who are NEVER SAVED.


(1) Did Jesus PAY the sins of those OUTSIDE of the church?
(2) Did Jesus PAY the sins of the unsaved "tares" in the church?
(3) Did Jesus PAY the sins of those who are "the children of Satan"?
(4) Did Jesus PAY the sins of men God HATED before they were born ?
(5) Did Jesus PAY the sins of the "vessels of destruction"?
(6) Did Jesus PAY the sins of the "vessels of dishonor"?
(7) Did Jesus PAY the sins of men who God said He "hardened"?
(8) Did Jesus PAY the sins of those destined for the "Lake of Fire"?


--
 
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5thKingdom

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---------------

You said (and I quote)
So when unbelievers die in their unbelief and are judged at the Great White throne. It is not their sin (because Jesus paid the sin price at the cross) that condemns them to the lake of fire but their lack of having accepted the free gift of Gods Eternal Life. By trusting in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life.



However, the Bible is very clear that the sinner PAYS
for every idle word (even for sinful thoughts).

Do you have ANY SCRIPTURE that teaches that the ONLY SIN
paid by the unsaved is the ONE SIN of not "accepting" Christ?

I don't think you have such a Scripture because it does
not exist in the Bible. Your doctrine contradicts the Gospel.

.
 
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5thKingdom

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You said (and I quote)

Because Jesus paid the sin debt for EVERYONE on the cross. But His death and resurrection isn't what saves you or me. God saves people on the basis of grace. This means salvation is non-meritorious. It is by faith.



If Jesus PAID for the sins of EVERYONE...
then WHAT are the unsaved PAYING in the Lake of Fire?

Are they PAYING for the (same) sins AGAIN?

Your doctrine seems to end with the conclusion that
the ONLY SIN paid by the unsaved is the ONE SIN of
not "accepting" Christ.

But the Bible is clear the sinner PAYS for every idle word
(even for their sinful thoughts)

I understand that the "world" (meaning Jew and Gentile)
is saved during the Great Commission but that is NOT
the context of what we are discussing.

Do you have any SCRIPTURE that teaches Jesus PAID
for the sins of the unsaved? Please cite chapter and verse.
Thank you.


I do not believe such a Scripture exists.
I think Scripture teaches Jesus PAID for "His Sheep".

(but I did like you citing 1Co 1:21)
But we know [Acts 13:48] that only those
who are "ordained" believe

--
 
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5thKingdom

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Psalms 45 proves that it was not an arranged marriage because the bride queen was told to forget her father and bring her children to the essence of Who He is.

----------

So you choose to REJECT or intentionally IGNORE
the passages I provided?

...
 
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JIMINZ

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You said (and I quote)
"BY FAITH AND THE PROFESSION OF THAT FAITH"



Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that [faith is] not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast..

I don't understand your point.
By Gods' Grace He gives you the Faith to Believe, and by that same Grace He keeps you, by the professing of that Faith.

It's not of yourself.
 
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5thKingdom

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I don't understand your point.
By Gods' Grace He gives you the Faith to Believe, and by that same Grace He keeps you, by the professing of that Faith.

It's not of yourself.

-----------

I was not arguing with you, I was confirming what you said
with a verse that complimented Romans 8

--
 
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JIMINZ

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-----------

I was not arguing with you, I was confirming what you said
with a verse that complimented Romans 8

--

Ok it sounded as though you were saying it was by Grace, I was clarifying my position.

Good, so you are satisfied with the answer concerning your question?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Because no one pays for their own sins. So why do people end up in the lake of fire? Because they didn't receive the gift of eternal life, which is what qualifies people to live with God in heaven.

If the debt is PAID... then it is PAID.
Agreed.

Your argument ends with the doctrine that the ONLY
sin that is PAID by the sinner is not "accepting" Jesus.
No, it doesn't end up that way.

Read Hebews 10. Jesus paid for sins ONCE FOR ALL. It means exactly what it says.

But the Bible is very clear the sinner PAYS for every
idle word (even for his sinful thoughts).
Please show me that clear verse.

Clearly Jesus PAID for the sins of "His Sheep".
Really? Let's examine what Scripture actually says.

John 10-
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen.
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

The red words refer to believers; those who have believed in Christ for salvation.
The blue words refer to the whole world of people.
The purple words indicate for whom Christ died.

If there is a Scripture that says Jesus PAID for the sins
of EVERYONE... please cite chapter and verse.
I'm sure you are aware of the error of demanding specific wording. But there are a bunch of verses that clearly say that Christ died for everyone, which is the same thing.

2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Note: A passage saying that Jesus paid for the "world"
(meaning both Jew and Gentile) is NOT within the context
of what we are discussing (both saved and unsaved).
You need a passage that says Jesus PAID for those
who are NEVER SAVED.
I only need verses that indicate that Jesus died for everyone. And I have done that.

Here's a question for you.

Please share a verse that says He DIDN'T pay for the sins of each of your 8 points.

If you can do that, you will have refuted my view.
 
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5thKingdom

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Ok it sounded as though you were saying it was by Grace, I was clarifying my position.

Good, so you are satisfied with the answer concerning your question?

------------

I do not remember asking you a question.
I just wanted to add Eph 2 to your Rom 8 verse.

If I asked you a question... can you tell me the post #
At my age I need notes.

--
 
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FreeGrace2

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By Gods' Grace He gives you the Faith to Believe, and by that same Grace He keeps you, by the professing of that Faith.

It's not of yourself.
What isn't "of yourself" is the faith. Faith is a noun and includes the entirety of Christianity as revealed in Scripture. And that's what God has given us.

And we are to believe what He has given us.

What God doesn't give us is the action of believing. There is 1 verse that says He permits us to believe. That is not giving it to us.
 
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JIMINZ

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------------

I do not remember asking you a question.
I just wanted to add Eph 2 to your Rom 8 verse.

If I asked you a question... can you tell me the post #
At my age I need notes.

--

No question asked, your cool.
 
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JIMINZ

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The portion of the conversation you are questioning about is even after the conclusion of said conversation, if you took some time now and went back through the conversation, you would then understand what I was referencing.

It was in clarification.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The portion of the conversation you are questioning about is even after the conclusion of said conversation, if you took some time now and went back through the conversation, you would then understand what I was referencing.

It was in clarification.
As was I.
 
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JIMINZ

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As was I.

If you were asking for clarification, then you should have gone back to the beginning of the conversation and understood from the beginning what had already been spoken about rather than asking a question for the purpose of calcification after the conversation has already finished.

Personally, when I look at a thread that interests me, I take the time to read EVERY post made to that thread, that way when I ask a question, I already know what has previously been said by the person I am asking the question of.

I'm not angry, I just giving some information about how I personally enter into a thread, but I have found not everyone else does the same, and they should, it's even to the extent where I have posted something to a person and 3 posts on someone posts exactly the same thing, it shows me they didn't read the thread.

I don't understand your point.
By Gods' Grace He gives you the Faith to Believe, and by that same Grace He keeps you, by the professing of that Faith.

It's not of yourself.

It's Faith that we receive from God through His Grace, it isn't our Faith, it is given to us that we might(Would) believe.

Therefore everything concerning our Salvation is ultimately by the Grace of God, nothing of ourselves.

Have a good day.
 
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d taylor

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Show me at the great white throne judgment where unbelievers are judged for their sins.

They are judged for their works to determined their position in the lake of fire. The book of life is open to see again (which was actually determined at their death but for their benefit) if they are found in the book of life, which they will not be found in the book.

However, the Bible is very clear that the sinner PAYS for every idle word (even for sinful thoughts).
You said above, are you referencing Matthew 12:36 if so, that verse states gives an account, i do not see where it says they will pay.

I stated every sin, the Bible never says every sin but one, The Bible says that Jesus paid for the sin of the world, meaning all sin.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2;2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
 
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5thKingdom

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Because no one pays for their own sins.


---------------

Please forgive me. I do not know how to use the quotation
tools... so I have to respond to you in this manner.

(1) You said:

The red words refer to believers; those who have believed
in Christ for salvation. The blue words refer to the whole world
of people. The purple words indicate for whom Christ died.

No, I am sorry, you are wrong.
There is no reason whatsoever for you to decide that
"sheep" represents the world.

This is really very simple - According to Mat 13:24-30
The Bible teaches there are only three (3) groups of people
(1) The saved "wheat/sheep" in the church (sown by God)
(2) The unsaved "tares/goats" in the church (sown by Satan)
(3) The lost souls OUTSIDE of the church (also children of Satan)
like Moslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Pagans, etc.


You have no Biblical reason to claim that "sheep" means
(#1) in some verses and (#2 and #3) in other verses.
I can see NO WAY that you can support your theory with
Scripture. The "sheep" are ALWAYS the saints (#1)


(2) You said:

I'm sure you are aware of the error of demanding specific wording. But there are a bunch of verses that clearly say that Christ died for everyone, which is the same thing.

I am not asking for "specific wording" I am talking about
CONTEXT. There is no major doctrine in the Bible that is
limited to only ONE PASSAGE of Scripture. And we can
never find Biblical Truth unless our doctrine harmonizes
with ALL RELATED passages.

I am simply asking for you to provide passages that
support your statement that Christ died for EVERYONE.


(3) You said:

2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.


(a) The CONTEXT of that passage is ONLY the saints.
It does NOT include the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
or those OUTSIDE of the church:

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
with all the saints which are in all Achaia:


(b) The CONTEXT of the passage is ONLY the saints.

It does NOT include the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
or those OUTSIDE of the church.


2Co 5:14-19
For the love of Christ constraineth us [the saints];
because we [the saints] thus judge, that if one died
for all [the saints], then were all [the saints] dead:
And that he died for all [the saints], that they [saints]
which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
but unto him which died for them [the saints], and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we [the saints] no man after the
flesh: yea, though we [the saints] have known Christ after
the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [the saints] him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ [the saints], he is a new
creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become
new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us [the saints]
to himself by Jesus Christ, hath given to us [the saints] the
ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world [both Jew and Gentile] unto himself,
not imputing their [Jew and Gentile] trespasses unto
them [both Jew and Gentile]; and hath committed unto
us [the saints] the word of reconciliation.


So, not only does Paul TELL US the CONTEXT of the letter

in the first sentence (the church of God) but then he uses
the word "us" and "we" to identify the SAME CONTEXT.

You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of a passage
when you have not discerned the CONTEXT of the passage.
That is why you ended-up with a mishmash of "sheep" in
the previous passage... you did not understand the context.

BTW... you can TEST this by trying to put the word "unsaved"
or "world" everywhere that Paul says "us" and "we".
It PROVES the context I showed you above.


(4) You said:

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.


(a) The CONTEXT of the passage is ONLY the saints.
It does NOT includes the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
and it does NOT include those OUTSIDE of the church.


Heb 2:1-9
Therefore we [the saints] ought to give the more earnest heed
to the things which we [the saints] have heard, lest at any time
we [the saints] should let them slip. For if the word spoken by
angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience
received a just recompence of reward; How shall we [the saints]
escape, if we [the saints] neglect so great salvation; which at
the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto
us [the saints] by them [saints] that heard him; God also bearing
them [the saints] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with
divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come,
whereof we [the saints] speak. But one in a certain place testified,
saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man,
that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the
works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his
feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that
is not put under him. But now we [the saints] see not yet all things
put under him. But we [the saints] see Jesus, who was made a little
lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory
and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for
every man [every saint].


You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of a passage
when you have not discerned the CONTEXT of the passage.
That is why you ended-up with a mishmash of "sheep" in
the previous passage... you did not understand the context.

BTW... you can TEST this by trying to put the word "unsaved"
or "world" everywhere the text says "us" and "we".
It PROVES the context I showed you above.


(5) You said:

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.



The CONTEXT of the passage is ONLY the saints.
It does NOT include the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
or those OUTSIDE of the church.


1Ti 4:10
For therefore we [the saints] both labour and suffer

reproach, because we [the saints] trust in the living God, who
is the Saviour of all men [both Jew and Gentile], specially of
those [saints] that believe.


You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of a passage
when you have not discerned the CONTEXT of the passage.
That is why you ended-up with a mishmash of "sheep" in
the previous passage... you did not understand the context.

BTW... you can TEST this by trying to put the word "unsaved"
or "world" everywhere the text says "we" or "those" (who believe)
It PROVES the context I showed you above.


(6) You said:

1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


The CONTEXT of the passage is ONLY the saints.
It does NOT include the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
or those OUTSIDE of the church.



1Jn 2:1-5
My little children [the saints], these things write I unto
you [the saints], that ye [the saints] sin not. And if any
man [saint] sin, we [saints] have an advocate with the
Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation
for our [the saints] sins: and not for ours [the Jews] only,

but also for the sins of the whole world [the Gentiles also].
And hereby we [the saints] do know that we [the saints]
know him, if we [the saints] keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word,
in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we [saints]

that we [saints] are in him.



You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of a passage
when you have not discerned the CONTEXT of the passage.
That is why you ended-up with a mishmash of "sheep" in
the previous passage... you did not understand the context.

BTW... you can TEST this by trying to put the word "unsaved"
or "world" everywhere the text says "we". Once again this
PROVES the context I showed you above.




(7) You said:

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

The CONTEXT of the passage is ONLY the saints.
It does NOT include the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan
or those OUTSIDE of the church.


1Jn 4:6-14
We [saints] are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us [saints];

he that is not of God heareth not us [saints]. Hereby know
we [saints] the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved [saints], let us [saints] love one another:
for love is of God; and every one that loveth [the saints]
is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not
knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested
the love of God toward us [the saints], because that God

sent his only begotten Son into the world [both Jew and Gentile],
that we [saints] might live through him. Herein is love, not that
we [saints] loved God, but that he loved us [saints], and
sent his Son to be the propitiation for our [saints] sins.
Beloved [saints], if God so loved us [saints], we [saints]
ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any
time. If we [saints] love one another, God dwelleth in

us [saints], and his love is perfected in us [saints].
Hereby know we [saints] that we [saints] dwell in him,
and he in us [saints], because he hath given us [saints]
of his Spirit. And we [saints] have seen and do testify that
the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the
world [both Jew and Gentile].



You cannot hope to understand the MEANING of a passage
when you have not discerned the CONTEXT of the passage.
That is why you ended-up with a mishmash of "sheep" in
the previous passage... you did not understand the context.

BTW... you can TEST this by trying to put the word "unsaved"
or "world" everywhere the text says "we" or "us". Once again
this PROVES the context I showed you above.
 
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5thKingdom

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---------- contineud ----------


(8) You said:

I only need verses that indicate that Jesus died for everyone.
And I have done that.

No... not by a long shot. You have just shown that you are
not able to discern the CONTEXT of Scripture. I am sure that
you THINK you can but the verses above cannot apply to the
(#2) unsaved "tares" in the church or the (#3) lost souls
OUTSIDE of the church... they can ONLY apply to the
(#1) saved "wheat/sheep" in the church.

You need to remember what I said above about the three
groups of people on earth and see WHICH group applies
in EACH verse you read... although it's the saints 90%
of the time.


(9) You said:

Here's a question for you.
Please share a verse that says He DIDN'T pay for the sins of each of your 8 points.

If you can do that, you will have refuted my view


That is easy:


Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say
unto you [saints], I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came

before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep [saints] did not
hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be
saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh
not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that
they [the saints] might have life, and that they [the saints] might

have it more abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good
shepherd giveth his life for the sheep [the saints]. But he that

is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not,
seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and
the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep [saints].

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not
for the sheep [the saints]. I am the good shepherd,

and know my sheep [the saints], and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep [the saints].



But HERE is my favorite... Jesus was NOT the "propitiation"

for the unsaved "tares" in the church (children of Satan) or
the lost souls OUTSIDE of the church (also children of Satan)

Herein is love, not that
we [saints] loved God, but that he loved us [saints], and

sent his Son to be the propitiation for our [saints] sins.




BTW... you said:

Because no one pays for their own sins.


But the BIBLE contradicts you. The Bible PROMISES
that men will PAY for every sin they commit...
even every idle word. (even sinful thoughts)

Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word

that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof
in the day of judgment.

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh
on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart.


The RESULT of your false doctrine that Jesus PAID for
every sin ever committed by anyone who ever lived...
including all the "children of Satan" is that you teach
a gospel that says everyone in the Lake of Fire is
PAYING for the single sin of not "accepting" Jesus.

I do not mean to be rude. But you are preaching
"another gospel" than preached by Jesus and the
Apostles.


.......
 
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