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How does one know?

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by nikolai_42, Jun 25, 2003.

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  1. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    If this is true, then you'd have to say that the entire charismatic church has been deceived, becos every charismatic I know of, including those in this forum and myself, can pray in tongues at will.

    In my country (Singapore) where there are a lot of Chinese mediums and spiritists the tongue-speaking that is demonic is such that the spirit comes in, posseses you and speaks through you. ie the spiritist has no control over his tongue and is at the mercy of the spirit.

    So it is kind of ironical that you would believe that unless the Holy Spirit comes on you and takes over your speech faculties, the tongues is not of God. On the contrary, if that happened, it is prob demonic. No, the Holy Spirit is a gentleman. :)
     
  2. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    I know the scripture talks abt "as the Spirit wills" with regard to the gifts of the Spirit.

    But I think you are confusing this with the ministry gift of tongues. ie. God tells you to stand up in the congregation and give a message in tongues that is to be interpreted. This happens as the Spirit wills. Some call this "public" tongues as opposed to "private" tongues ie praying in the spirit for you OWN edification. There is a difference.

    Of cse, a person can always stand up and speak in tongues, thinking that God has a message for the congregation. But what he may be doing is simply praying out loud his edification. ie there is no message from God.
     
  3. silentmessenger

    silentmessenger New Member

    11
    +1
    Hello all.
    This is more what I was refering to. When someone is told hey - go pray over this person in tongues - and they are not in the "frame" of mind for prayer etc it isn't from God - it's more like memorization of a few words and repeating them. Deliberate deception? Counterfeited? There are many sources documented for what are called tongues. The Holy Spirit, psychological influence, and satanic influence are a few.
    In this statement I am refering to this incident at hand. The people who use Praying In Tongues as a Spiritual short cut to power, which is sinful and divisive, are abusing the gift from God.
    Tongues is given for service - not personal enjoyment - to edify Christ. Even though it's a gift we are held responsible for how we use it.
    These sign gifts come from His Holy Spirit, He decides who gets what, such as gift of healing - gift of tongues etc... and He gives them at His pleasure - not because we want them. To some are given one gift to others another. It is to be used for His glory not ours. In essence it actually is a tool used for the the good of the Church. It is not a decoration or something for personal enjoyment or in this instance for deception and a shortcut to spiritual power. It was/is false tongues she was speaking. Not everyone is given this gift and even to those who are given this gift each person's gift is unique. But for one purpose.
    I believe there are two distinct types of tongues as you say Andrew.
    I generally refer to them as public and private.
    SPeaking in tongues (glossolalia - a term formed from the equivelant Greek Words) is mentioned only in two New Testament books: Acts and 1 Corinthians. Oh yes it's also in Mark 16:17 but most scholars believe it's not in original manuscripts. The word "glossolalia" is used in two differnt terms it appears in the Bible. One in connection with events at Pentacost, the other refered to in Corinth.
    In Acts, at Pentecost, the disciples spoke in tongues that people visiting there knew, yet they (the ones speaking it - disciples) had never spoken. In Corinthians, the listeners did not hear a language they knew and indeed needed an interperter. Some have said in Corinthians it was a known language while some say it was ecstatic utterances unrelated to human language.
    If someone is led by God to stand up and speak in tongues it should be interperted. If it can not be somehow, then possibly it was not willed by God. 1 Corinthians states, "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to God and himself."

    One note. This lady would come up and pray in tongues at the will of the Pastor. If it was led by God, she would not have had to be prompted.

    Oh yes and there is the tongues of men and angels, but I remain silent on this in Chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians. I would assume it would be a language known not by man, however if His Holy Spirit should decide someone should recieve this gift, it's not for me to judge.

    There is a definite difference in the gifts given at Pentecost of tongues where no interpretation was required and the one spoken of in Corinthians, where an interpretur was required. Also at Pentecost other signs accompianied tongues. (ACTS chapter 2).
    Noted as we all seem to agree it's a gift from the Holy Spirit. But as mentioned in 1 Corinthians it appears to be one of the least important gifts, but I know they all work together for the good. I am merely stating Biblical Facts. Often it does not give spiritual benefit to other believers. The other gifts build up and strengthen the body. It has it's purpose but some churches focus on tongues as a showy way of spirit power or eveidence of spiritual maturity. It must be tested by Scripture - as any gift should.
    Tongues can be abused. Sadly I have been witness to it. It's a frightening thing to watch a church die, because one places importance on tongues over love which is commanded above all and without the rest is nothing.
    About Private Tongues. Private devotional use of tongues as a means of praising God and experiencing His fellowship is wonderful and a great thing. I have no qualms about this at all. In fact I relally don't about any of this discussion. It just seems so strange that we all take it for granted that anyone who speaks in tongues is filled with the Spirit.
    Paul does say in 1 Corinthians 14:18-19 "I speak in tongues more than you all;" but sure read on and see what else he says. So many forget to repeat the rest that follows. How much you speak in tongues is not evidence your spiritual power or maturity level is greater than those who do not speak in tongues.
    The rest of the scripture is " HOWEVER, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also; rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

    My stand is this. If you are praying privately in tongues, wonderful. That is a gift to be marveled. Praying at will in tongues is between you and God. God is no respector of persons and His Holy Spirit gives utterance of tongues at His choosing.
    If you are speaking publically in tongues and commanded by the Pastor or someone in the flesh, I think it's wrong. It (as ANdrew says) is as the Spirit Wills. Biblically it should also been with an interpretur. If you are able to have both gifts, You are truly blessed.


    Bless God always, search for truth! Peace~
     
  4. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

    491
    +6
    Protestant
    I guess it could be summed up by stating that any gift of the Holy Spirit is never meant to be used to show to others our "spirituility", but as Snup, Quaffer, and Andrew have stated it bring Glory to Our God and King. I think maturing in the walk set before one has a lot to do as how one uses the Gifts. I truly believe in the need of a maturing process of the Believer.
    Again, We are on a journey upon a path where the truth has been tainted, come let's walk together as the Spirit reveals the truth along the way. Reaching one hand forward to those ahead for help, and one hand behind to help those in the rear. We need each other sooooo desperately.
    My Love to All Ya
    Ken
     
  5. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,296
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    silentmessenger,

    We are told to have love above all other things. . . however out of love springs all the gifts that God has for us. And. . .just like any child learning to talk there is a learning process. Yes, I believe that as time goes on the language of angels will progress and sound more like a complete language but I do not believe this is necessarily the case with a newborn, or even a young child/christian. Just as we see childish people in the natural there are also childish people in the spiritual.

    I have been saved since I was a child and I have spoken in tongues since I was at least in my teens. I cringe to think of the things that I've said or done in the flesh at one moment and then then next being greatly used of God.

    When I meet those I have offended in this manner in the past I can only request their forgiveness and for their sakes pray they do. I firmly believe that is what is being referred to in James 3:5-13 (NKJV) Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creatue of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similtude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

    In Is 58:11 it says, "The LORD will guide you continually, And satisfy your soul in drought, And strengthen your bones; You shall be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

    Unfortionately, there are a lot of christians who are not allowing God to make them a fresh spring of water. And like you, I too, would be very hesitent in allowing someone spewing forth both to pray for me. . .that would be a definate sign they are not a fresh spring but a putrid spring.

    However, God is in the business of changing rotteness to fresh. And I believe that when we are speaking to God in the heavenly language that He makes available to all of us, then the door is open, even if only a little bit, for Him to move and change us. He did it for me, and since He is not a respector of persons He will do it for any who will let Him.

    Now if we refuse to listen then we close the door and as you said, it becomes more like practicing witchcraft. . .which is what God compared rebellion to in 1 Samuel 15:22.

    1 Cor 14:4 says, "He who speaks in a tongue edifues himself." If our hearts our pure before God and we are speaking in His language, we are speaking mysteries (1 Cor 14:2). And according to Romans 8:26 "the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us."

    We pray in tongues and the Holy Spirit, knowing what we really need is saying to God, "they need more love, they need more peace, they need more self control, etc." And then God, in verses 28 and 29 is causing all things to "work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    So I believe that as long as the persons heart is open, their heart and or mouth may not totally be in the right place, however, the Spirit through them is praying the right things and God is using all the things that the person reaps as a result of whatever they are sowing (both bad and good) to conform them into His image. [​IMG]
     
  6. Hollypop

    Hollypop &l t;m arqu e e behavior=scrol

    339
    +10
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I obviously am not as qualified to answer questions as Quaffer or others on this forum, but i do have some knowledge on this subject.
    I believe that a person who is spirit filled can speak in tongues at will. My teacher (I go to bible College) said that if you are praying in tongues and dont sense the Holy Spirit is praying through you (which is what tongues is), then you are probably in the flesh. Or for lack of better words...if you dont feel God's Spirit, then you probably need to repent and get back on track.

    Thanks---- Holly
     
  7. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

    491
    +6
    Protestant
    Hey Holly: I didn't know you were enrolled in Bible College there. Which one? I know of three there, probably more though. Can PM me if you desire.
    Ken
     
  8. silentmessenger

    silentmessenger New Member

    11
    +1
    Hello All,

    This would be pretty true for what I have been battling. What Quaffer says.
    about what is happening in the church I left. 10 Months of asking and seeking God's truth has revealed many things that are unsettling.
    I do believe - and maybe I did not make myslef clear about it - that you can pray in the Spirit at your own will, when speaking to God and yourself. I hope you all are not under the assumption I think private tongues is what I am refering to in this situation.
    1 Corinthians 14:27-28 clearly says when it's "public" - in the church - someone should be an interpretur. If you have the gifts also of interpretation, that is awesome. It's a gift the Holy Spirit also chooses to give to some.
    But I have to agree with Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue, does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; but he utters mysteries with his spirit. (3) But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. (4) He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the Church." -

    Which is what we are called to do with these gifts - For His Glory for the good of the church.

    Verse 5 continues "I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified."

    That is where I am stating the gift of tongues is indeed important but Paul makes it clear it's not the most important gift.

    Verse 6 Continues with (6) Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?"

    Quaffer states and I don't challenge or doubt your ability to pray and interpret what God is speaking, that the manifestation of answers or words of knowledge were present to the one being prayed for. If this had been present in the place I left, I would have not begun to seek out what was right and wrong according to God.

    Verse 7 and 8 "EVen in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes. (8) Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?"

    Paul compares this with us in verse 9 "So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will be just speaking into the air."
    Noting already what is said about interpreturs, verse 10 explains that there are many languages but if someone present does not understand he is a foreigner. He also notes that since we are eager to have Spiritual gifts try and excel in gifts that build up the church.

    I am not refering to private tongues, but public. If there is not someone who is interpreting, then it serves no purpose to me or others who can not interpret what is being said. This does no good for the body of Christ. Which is the reason the gifts are given to some - according to His desire who should recieve which gift, yet we are all empowered with a unique gift each and it's by the same Spirit.

    When this church would exhibit the gifts of tongues, (not when someone was praying to God privately in the congregation,) no interpretation was ever made. not even by the Pastor.

    So as Paul continues, in Verses 13 through 17 it does not edify others with the manifestation of tongues in this Chuch.

    13 "For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. (14) For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. (15) So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. (16) If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say 'AMEN' to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? (17) You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified."

    How can someone who does not have the gift of tongues or gift of interpretation of tongues understand what is being said. He doesn't.
    And scripture states that some are given this gift and some are given another gift. 1 Corinthians 12 4-11 - it's clearly stated 'for to one' and 'to another' - this does not mean the Holy Spirit gives everyone the same unique gift. Sure - some people do have more than one gift, but the Holy SPirit decides this and who will recieve what. "But all these things worketh that one and the selfsame spirit, dividing every man severally as He will." These gifts are divided among believers.

    I believe people can all recieve the gifts of tongues (for private tongues), but not all are called to use them publically. It's not as we want, it's as HE will. Quaffer you appear to be blessed abundantly as others here with this gift of tongues to edify the church for God's glory. Amen - but not all have this gift. Some have prophecy, some have discerning of spirits, etc... I do believe we all have these gifts in some respects, but charisma means by His Holy Grace - therefore some are blessed more abundantly in one or more gifts than other gifts. and it should be used for God's will .. and if not used for Him it would lead to sin's of ommision.

    James 3:5-8 - What I have always understood it to mean, how can someone be filled with the spitit while they bless God yet at the same time curse men. A good tree can not bear bad fruit and a bad tree will not bear good fruit.

    Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

    There is no love nor any fruits of the spirit manifested in this place I left.

    2Peter 2:17 "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever"

    You can not learn anything from a dry well, and certainly when not when it mocks the people eager to learn God's ways. False teachings mocks the Lord. It's like the spirit of Baalam - who used God as a front for personal gain. This spirit is common in today's church. People use Christianity for presonal gain.

    The Scripture tells us to seek the truth and test all spirits. I am not challenging anyone here on what the Holy Spirit has bestowed generously upon them. I have and am truly enjoying this debate in good fellowship and I pray I have not offended anyone. Forgive me if I have.
    When someone who is lacking in fruit - and then suddenly becomes empowered with tongues and it is scriptuarally lacking it becomes a matter of the gift of discernment and God. I would prefer the truth and be away from such things. Of course I pray for these people, but it's not from God.
    It's amazing how many people have been led to deception by not knowing God's Word.

    I agree with Hollypop about tongues being from the flesh if God's Spirit is not present or felt. I can not feel what these people did, or do. But after searching I have learned alot more than I thought I could about false tongues, false worship, false teachers and teachings. Your posts are all great! :) I am blessed to have found this forum for interaction with other believers!

    Yes I believe we are all being conformed and progressively being sanctified as we journey along in this world until pure and perfect sanctifcation is met as glorification when we meet our Father face to face.

    I just feel compelled to discuss false tongues as a reality that is currently being used in churches today. If someone is praying over you with out true interpretation from His Holy Spirit, who knows what blessings or cursings are being said? The church I am in currently is spirit filled and the gifts of tongues and intrepretation is present as well as private tongues. It's an awesome gift the church would be missing if it were not present, but if it's not from God, it's either demonic or flesh.

    God's blessings and joy. I guess we are neighbors almost Hollypop, Mobile is not that far away!

    I hope I am done editing all my mistakes now, Peace and Love and Joy.
    Bless God always
     
  9. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,296
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    You are correct silentmessenger in that giving a tongue as a message is not a gift that everyone has. It is really too bad that the church you attended was not more mature in the giftings.

    As scripture states when a tongue is given as a message there should always be an interpretation. If the person giving the tongue does not know if there is a person with the gift of interpretation then that person should seek the interpretation too or remain silent.

    Unfortionately, many church people use their heavenly language as a sign that they are right with God when really, their hearts are far from Him.

    It sounds like you are getting more sound teaching now, however, I want to incourage you to not concentrate too much on the false or you may be deceived into believing that something that is very real and from God is false and then you will miss what God has for you.

    I heard a long time ago about how a bank teller is trained in handleing money. . .I don't know that it's true but it made a good point. . .which was, they handled only the real thing for weeks and then when they were handed the counterfit, they knew it immediately.

    I think too though that there are many who believe they already know everything there is to know about God and when something they are not use to shows up they immediately write it off as not from God, when really the problem is that it is something they've never seen before.
     
  10. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    I don't really desire to argue with you but I would like to interduce you to a different way of looking at this perticular scripture. It is you belief that the point of these verses is to show that the gifts a scattered abroad through out the church, but it is my contention that that belief is not correct.
    Verse 6 says: 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

    In this context I veiw verse seven through eleven to refer to specific moments, rather then a difinitive statement as to who will 'always' have what gifts. I have notice that certain men tend to act in certain gifts but that does not prove that only certain men have certain gifts. Rather it could also show that we act in ways that we have faith to believe. Like the person who has healed many but can not seem to perduce healing in his own life.

    Under the consept that a man will use certain gifts on certain occasions but not all of the gifts on one occasion (unless there is not anyone else capable of being used) gives God much more leeway to do as He see fit and to tailure the gifting to specific cercumstance. What would one who is only gifted in tongues and words of wisdom do if a circumstance required healing or words of knowledge. This limitation of The Spirit of God is not really scriptural.

    I told a young man that God would allow him to use all of the spiritual gifts as circumstance gave way for it once he was baptised in the Spirit. On the day that he was baptised he operated in seven of nine spiritual gifts. This was done I believe to incourage my friend to believe for God to use him in whatever capasity.

    This is a limitation on the work that Christ has done for us.

    This shows what your real concern is. Why do you limit personal tongues to private use. That is not a limit in Scripture. Why is it impossible to believe that someone could us their personal prayer language to pray over someone else. I personally have done this, both in church and out, and have seen wonderful fruit. To believe that if a tongue is heard by someone else or utilized to bless another outloud, then it must be interpreted is incorrect. As long as tongues are being used for prayer, then there never is a need for interpretation because the person is speaking only to God. Interpretation is for the edification of the church, not for prayer.
     
  11. silentmessenger

    silentmessenger New Member

    11
    +1
    Hi -
    I don't consider this in any way agruementive. I have truly enjoyed everyone's posts and wisdom! The forum is wonderful and it has been a blessing.

    This is sad but too often true. I know if I am praying in the spirit or with the mind, and I am not focused on God it is a distraction that takes away from my fellowship with God.

    Actually I have been in the knowledge of sound teaching, but now I am in a church that practices that teaching correctly and according to scripture. This previous church has been a tool in learning the truth from error. I have learned alot from the church - but it does not practice God's doctrine over man's doctrines. If I were to stay at this church it would be wrong. Of course with out going into full detail of the matter, I suppose you can not fully understand what I am saying. This is not the only issue that God has revealed to me. I was called to resign my position in the church - not by the Pastor's direction, but under God's for various reasons. I don't focus on false togues and not recognize what God has for me. I understand the truth from the false, and it's for preparation for my journey with His Holy Spirit that I have embarked on. God is always awesome! But I know what you are saying Quaffer, I know it would be wrong to only focus on false and not see the true Spirit of God at work because of what I have seen happening. I have seen the practice of tongues before I attended this church, I understand where some people are cutting down God's gift of tongues because they have never seen it practiced in the church before. This is not the case of writing tongues off as NOT God.

    This evening during the service there were three distinct messages given in tongues and three interpretations. In fact and in deed it was an answer - each time to prayer I have been asking the Lord. The same message was conveyed three different times and I believe in tongues friends, I accept it. So please don't think I am in opposition to this gift. I am just sharing what I know or think. Nothing here is posted in vainity or without thought about this subject. I also want you to know I know there are people who pray in tongues but my point lies with scripture.

    If someone is praying for me and I don;t have the gift of interpretation then someone needs to interpret it or pray for me in a language I understand. I have been in prayer with people and utterances from the Lord have come about and they state what was spoken by the spirit to them, etc.. I know what it is and I respect this gift. But I have been blessed to be able to know truth from false tongues and teachings etc. If you are praying to God - then that is awesome but when you make it public it should be interpreted or a word of knowledge or prophecy should follow. If not what good does it do anyone but ourselves and God? It does not help someone who doesn't understand.

    Concerning SnuP's post, I maybe did not make myself clear. I do believe all regenerated Holy Ghost filled believers have all gifts. But the scripture states for the purpose of the church some are given to one and some to another. I am not limiting the Holy Spirit. God is Soveriegn and can and will use the foolish things to confound the wise. He can and will do as He pleases and if the need is for someone to have a certain gift present in a service to edify the body of Christ, He will do so.

    What I am refering to is that some are more gifted in ares such as Evangelism while others are gifted more in healing yet they both have all gifts. They have a unique gift that is empowered beyong our human nature to excell for His kingdom with that gift. Some gifts overlap while some are used only for a season but according to God's will and purposes. How would my statement make you think I was limiting God? I stated
    I apologize if you thought I meant anything other than what I said.
    In no way was I meaning what you are saying unless I am not understanding what you are saying. I know God can and will use these gifts but it's His call on the matter. I can't argue with scripture when it's plainly stated.
    Billy Graham is called to be an evagelist but I am sure he has other gifts as well. That is his unique gift.

    1 Corinthians 12:27-31 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (28) And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? (30) Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? (31) But eagerly desire the greater gifts."

    In this scripture I do believe Paul is saying some are anointed or called forth with a unique gift or their own. That is what I am saying, some have a greater abundance in their gifts that are unique to them. Not everyone can be Billy Graham, but all can have the gifts and we all have some ability for each - . We are given them at His will. And to some he has given it for the purpose to edify the body of Christ and for the good of the church. My praying in tongues is not for anything other than personal use. If God should desire it be known for the church to recieve a word from Him - God will do it - However the unique gifts God has given me are to strengthen the church and edify others. ANd I try and use them in all situations. For the good of His Holy Kingdom. Tongues is not my unique gift but if God should use tongues for me to relay a message then it's not because it's my gift it's because He wills it.

    Umm, No it's not actually a limitation on the work of Christ. Not what I am refering to.

    The word Sanctification comes from the Greek word which means "to be seperate" or "set apart for a purpose"
    Scripture teaches there are three parts to sanctification.
    First- the moment we recieve Christ there is an immediate sanctification.
    Second- as we progress in the Christian life there is a "progressive sanctification"
    Third - when we get to heaven it's complete and total sanctification - which is called glorification.

    We are not immediately made holy and righteous as God has called us to "bear the likeness of His Son" (romans 8:29) We are made more like Christ daily as we become obedient to God and grow in our spiritual walk with Christ.

    Through Christ's Sanctification on the Cross we are offered our own sanctification. Yes that is already done. But in our life for daily sanctification as refered to the second meaning it requires no sin and daily righteous actions for God. Each day we are being set apart for God's Kingdom. Each day we learn and grow and seek the Lord. Perfection only happens when we reach His Kingdom. Therefore if taken in the context I am using it as yes - I am daily always in progressive sanctification for His Kingdom for when I reach glorification.
    I am sorry I did not clarify my statement before.

    As I too don't like to agrue I will say I am not however, my real concern is the truth and correct use of scripture. Not as you have stated. I do not limit personal tongues to private use. I have indeed been given words from the Lord through tongues. Many occasions.
    I am merely stating once again, what scripture states.

    Sure you can use you prayer language to pray over someone else, but Paul states 1 Corinthians 14:6 "Now brothers if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you unless I bring some revelation or knowledge of prophecy or word of instruction?" He continues on to point out it's a language foreign to some one else then it should be interpreted either by someone else or yourself. But as you yourself stated, as long as tongues is being used for prayer then there is never a need for interpretation because you are speaking to God.

    Paul is pretty clear that if you are speaking in tongues to someone - it should be interpreted in verses 6 to 19, but scripture does not state much either way on praying in tongues to God. I will follow what I do know. I don't need to pray in tongues over someone to produce good fruit. If the utterances of tongues comes out while I am praying for someone then it should be followed as Paul says with a word of knowledge or instruction, as stated in i Corinthians 14:6.
    If someone is praying in tongues for personal or what I refer to as private prayer, thats between him and God.
    1 Corinthians 14:27 and 28 states : If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

    I have already made my point on that. If I am in a congregation and you are praying in tongues, fine.I don't have a probelm as you suggest with this.. but if you are praying ONLY in tongues over someone then Paul's example should be followed and interpreted by someone or yourself. For someone to come up and just pray only in tongues alone is not wise as we are to make sure we always know what is being said over us.

    People believe it or not have cursed others with tongues. It's only a wise decision to know what is said. When I pray with others I don't begin praying in the spirit where they can not understand. They know what I am saying - that I am praying a blessing or according to God's Word for them. If utterances and tongues come about - it's always with knowledge from the Lord.

    I don't think if you are praying and it's between you and God it has to have an interpretur. I have never thought that. Many people do. My point is we have a responsibility with this gift. It's clearly outlined in scripture. If someone else understands it differently than I do, I always welcome any wisdom.

    I don't take man's doctrine over what God says in His Scriptures to us. If I make a mistake in interpretation of scripture it's just that - a mistake. I am thankful when someone can help me see the truth from error. I don't argue scripture interpretation - I try and always test each scripture with other scripture. To many times people will quote one line and not read the passages surrounding it and therefore it can make a mess out of God's Holy Word.

    Taken in a whole, Paul pretty much says nothing about private prayer except in 1 Corinthians 14:18-19 which of course is just my opinion. He does make it clear about tongues in the church. If people want to pray in tongues, so be it. But if they are dealing with others the scripture tells me the guidelines we should follow. Not all people do as God states in His Word as I have seen in my previous church.

    I have truly enjoyed this discussion. Everyone is very well versed and knowledgable and it's nice to not have anyone argueing and saying hurtful things. I hope I have kept up with that standard. May God Bless each one of you abundnantly and thank you for the welcomes and words of wisdom brought to me, it's been a great blessing!
    I am strengthened by everyone's words here!
    Peace and Joy....
     
  12. silentmessenger

    silentmessenger New Member

    11
    +1
    Oh wow, I apologize for the long post. I will try and keep all future posts shorter. But I think I have pretty much said all I can about it from my view point. It's been an awesome discussion.
    Bless God.
     
  13. BlackSabb

    BlackSabb Senior Member

    +137
    Christian
    Married
    Is it okay to resurrect old threads? Because I just did! In fact, the oldest (pg 688).
     
  14. NorrinRadd

    NorrinRadd Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian

    +526
    Charismatic
    Single
    US-Republican
    :doh:

    Yeah, I'm reading thru this thing, seeing all these names of unknown people, :scratch: and I finally notice the 2003 dates.

    Much as I think "closed" threads should have some sort of big red "closed" watermark or something, I think a situation like this calls for some sort of alert system that announces, "WARNING! Some :tutu: has resurrected an archaic thread!!!"
     
  15. BlackSabb

    BlackSabb Senior Member

    +137
    Christian
    Married


    Ha ha ha ha. :p :p Sucked in, got you good!!!

    I got some :tutu: good and proper.
     
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