How does one know?

[nikolai_42]

Having read some on Eastern Mysticism and also on modern tongues, I wonder about the comparisons. Is it possible that there is great deception in the modern 'Charismatic movement' and that it is simply a spiritual 'brother' of Eastern Mysticism/Kundalini/Hinduism? There are books that detail many of the ecstatic manifestations in India (especially) that parallel some of the manifestations in the modern Charismatic movement. If they are from different sources, how does one tell beforehand which one is which? If from the same source, are they both from a 'good' source?

I'm asking because I have never had the answer to this question given. Always, someone has danced around it (very well, I might add!).

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

excellent question. I am a Baptist so i can't answer this question.

 

[9-iron]

Well satan always tries to imitate what God does. How can you be sure? The Bible talks about what father gives a child a stone or snake when they ask for bread. Then how much more will God give than your earthly fathers. Also, ask and you shall recieve. If you are asking God for the gift, I don't think he will allow satan to give you a false tounge.
Andrew will be able to give you more accurate Biblical reference.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Having read some on Eastern Mysticism and also on modern tongues, I wonder about the comparisons. Is it possible that there is great deception in the modern 'Charismatic movement' and that it is simply a spiritual 'brother' of Eastern Mysticism/Kundalini/Hinduism? There are books that detail many of the ecstatic manifestations in India (especially) that parallel some of the manifestations in the modern Charismatic movement. If they are from different sources, how does one tell beforehand which one is which? If from the same source, are they both from a 'good' source?

I'm asking because I have never had the answer to this question given. Always, someone has danced around it (very well, I might add!).

One knows the difference by the fruit that is born in their life.

According to 1 Cor 14:2 (Amplified) "For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understanDs or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding]."

1 Cor 14:4 "He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself,"

I use to pray in tongues only occasionally and did not see much difference in my life from those of my unsaved friends with exception to outright sin such as "drunkeness, sexual sins, etc." I regularly struggled with fear, anger, unforgiveness, lack of joy, depression, etc.

The church I currently attend teaches speaking in tongues as much as possible, and the Bible teaches that too. Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than everybody and in 1 Cor 11:1 he says "Pattern yourselves after me [follow my example] as I imitate and follow Christ (the Messiah)."

Since practicing what the Bible teaches on the matter, I have found the above mentioned struggles to be "rapidly" disappearing. I no longer wrestle with that spirit of fear but instead I have a Spirit of Love, Power, and a Sound Mind.

When I mix the tongue with english, I pray with better understanding of whatever issues the Spirit or others puts on my heart. When praying for others in the same manner, regularly, they will say "your prayer hit on the exact issue", when they had not given me any details.

There is no longer anger or unforgiveness. I've noticed a peacefullness and others are frequently telling me I have a "peaceful" Spirit. I'm joyful and very rarely, and only then because I've gotten my eyes on myself instead of Jesus, experience depression.

satan cannot create anything. . .he can only imitate. So, for those who are under the imitation. . .I would say they don't experience anything that the Spirit of God would give them. They may claim peacefulness but just watch how they react in a stressfull situation and you'll know exactly who they are trusting in and relying on.

This is of course not to say that all who are Christian's who still are struggling with these things are worshipping the devil . . .they are just very clearly not putting their full trust in God, because if they were they would be acting as if they were.

No one "has" to speak in tongues to be saved. However, in being a victorious Christian. . .one who overcomes the devil instead of being overcome by him. . .it is a strategic tool. And a good one at that.

 

[AlabamaMan]

I think Quaffer hit the nail on the head! Great post Quaffer!

 

[Hollypop]

wow Quaffer! That was put excellently!

 

[a'miepje]

yeah i agree too, read some points i wanted to make too, you saved me the time typing haha.

personal story:
in his teenyears my older bro turned his back to God and lived his own life etc etc. after 6 yrs or so i got him to go to church with me with a what ya call it, well we made a deal lol
anywayit was quite a service the sunday he was at my church, pretty charesmatic. later he told me he felt something but it scared him so he ran outside lol. he told me he felt something but couldnt name it God. I told him to just wait and he would haha (so he did, a week later he got saved and woah what a turn around did he make but anyway) we had a long discussion that sunday he went to church for first time in years.
i dont know about the names nikolai mentioned in his post but my bro and me talked about this dutch lady, who has so called 'healing' powers, manifestation happen. she has her 'patients' lay on a table and she does strange stuff, she has a radio show and people have to put a glass of water in front of the radio and she would beam it through the radio, weird stuff like that. people get so called healed, but then they start suffering depressions or it returns way worse. I told my bro to look at the fruits, hers have none, she uses demonic powers etc and people end up worse in the end. God is awesome and when He works people are so changed.
God got a hold on my bro too and he got saved a week later, it was so amazing God is good!

 

[SnuP]

I wanted to say that tongues will always draw you closer to God if they are of God. Spoken word always has some spiritual reality attached to it. Tongues should draw you into the Spirit of God and turn your focus upon Christ. They should cause your faith to increase and your love for the body to flurish.

In fact tongues are of the Spirit so they activate the things of the Spirit, the fruit and the gifts. Other manifestations have the purpose of healing and restoration. The purpose of tongues is for relationship, to place you in Christ.

 

[superdave]

Tongues are one of the major evidences of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. When the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit in Acts- what came first? Tongues. Tongues are still alive and active today. And God is a God who never changes. And this did not simply pass away? If God said he was the same today, yesterday and tomorrow? Shouldn't we be as well. The Apostles prayed in tongues and had all the evidences of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think the church is in grave danger- for leaving this out. And God will make it known soon.

 

[Hollypop]

tell it like it is super dave!

 

[stumpsitting101]

In My Experience with "tongues", I've found that when it is being lead by the Holy Spirit, it peacefully flow forth from deep within your being. It is almost effortless, and generally,the focus is upon His Worthiness. I'm sure there are other facets, but this is the way I can only describe it to another, as happening to me.
Blessings
Ken

 

[Andrew]

Whatever the gift or manifestation, if it is of God, it should draw attention to Jesus, point to Jesus, exalt Jesus and his finished work.

So, look at the person's life. Has his tongue speaking drawn him closer to God, caused him to love Jesus and focus on Jesus more?

I started another thread on Catholic Charismatics who spoke in tongues too. But the guy who posted his testimony said that after having received tongues, they drew closer to Mary -- ie Mary began to take on an even more central role/position in their lives. So, if that is true, then I doubt the tongues they received is of God.

The other impt point is this: A person MUST be truly born again b4 he is prayed for to receive tongues. If not, he may receive another spirit.

 

[silentmessenger]

Hi Everyone!
I have enjoyed reading the topics of discussion here about speaking in tongues. Since I am new to the forum, I hope you don't take my posts as too forward or rude. It's nice to meet you all.

In the church I recently left I had some issues with certain members speaking in tongues. I belonged to this Church for two years and in the last ten months things have been strange. The fruits of the Spirit of God were not displayed in a fashion according to the Will of God, however, the Gifts of the Spirit were openly displayed. Love and teloerance were becoming rare but the manifestation of speaking in tongues was increasing. I had problems with this.
The Pastor of this church would tell one of the members to come and pray in the spirit over someone. She would instantly begin praying in the spirit of tongues. It was greatly distrubing.
After researching once again the gifts of the spirit I found no eveidence that man could pray in tongues at will. I began a study on the spirit of false tongues (along with some other issues) and this was one of the signs that it was not from God.
It's a gift - it can not be taught - but it can be taught about.
The problem I found - people who began to speak in tongues or manifest the Baptism of the Holy Spirit decided it was good enough and they were truly spirit filled Pentecosts. The Fruit of the Spirit was lost.

It made me think of a comparison - you are saved by Grace through Faith, not by your works, but without good deeds your faith is dead.
So it's like this in a way maybe? You have the fruit of the Spirit, Love Joy Tolerance etc, and when you recieve the gift of tongues, it's a manifestation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. But with out the fruit of the Spirit and only the presence of tongues, it would indicate it would be a false spirit. Well this is just my opinion.
Anyone who can at will begin to pray in tongues, to me it's not from God. There is a divine order to coming into the presence of the Lord, just as with the order of the instruction for the priests to enter into the Holy of Holies.
I have since found an awesome Church that understands and scripturally applies the gifts of tongues, healing etc.
I look forward to fellowship with everyone here.
I Thank God for the opportunity to come together with other people who share the same heart for the Lord!
Bless God!

 

[stumpsitting101]

Welcome Silentmessenger; you show much wisdom, for any gift demonstrated outside of love (for God or others) can be powered by one's own flesh. It may appear to be Holy Spirit led, but not. Generally, when the flesh is behind it, it is just for show.
Borrowing one of Quaffer's favorite quoted verses:

Matt 7:20
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.KJV

I to, as many on this forum, are on a journey, unravelling the teachings the flesh has slipped into the Church. Come and walk with us.
Looking foward to reading more of your post.
Blessings
Ken

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

silentmessenger,

Welcome to this piece of the forum. I'm looking forward to talking with you some more.

In response to your post, I understand what you are saying, however, scripture tells us to "walk in the Spirit" always. We also know that the Spirit is always willing to lift us up and pray through us whenever we need Him to. I don't see anywhere in NT scripture where it says we must be in a certain frame of mind in order for the Holy Spirit to do what He promises to do in Romans 8:26.

I pray in the Spirit frequently. I do it at will. There are times when I just have no clue what to do or what to say in the natural. . .I call on Him and pray in tongues and the answer I need comes.

If I'm called by my Pastor to come up and pray over someone, I don't know what that person needs me to pray, but the Spirit does, therefore, I pray in tongues, and the Spirit through me prays for what is needed. And being that I also can interpret, I can also begin to pray in English in the area the Spirit has revealed and the person will have understanding of what the Spirit is dealing with. Many a time, the person I was praying for breaks into sobs because their private cry to the Lord is being answered through me, in detail.

Now God makes it clear also, that He gives gifts without repentance. Meaning that even though we may get in the flesh and not live the Godly life we should and with all the fruit of the Spirit manifesting, we can still operate in the gift. . .it just will not be pure. . .and left unchecked, will go into downright falsity. That's where all the other prophets, etc come in too. When something's not right the one's who are in right standing with God, will know it.

Another point I want to make, I'm not sure what you meant by "tolerance becoming rare", but tolerance is not one of the fruit of the Spirit. There is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodnes, faith, meekness, and temperance. We are to bear with people in their weaknesses, but to "tolerate" sin is unacceptable. Again, I'm not sure what you meant so I just wanted to point that out.



Quaffer

 

[Hollypop]

Can I just take the time to say that I love this Forum!

Hi Silentmessenger!

 

[silentmessenger]

Thanks for the welcome! I look forward to talking with you all as well. It is nice to meet you Ken - Quaffer - and Hollypop.

Yes I apologize for the toloreance - temperance confussion. Should be temperance. Not sure what happened there.
In the situation I was in the scripture (Matt 7:20) fits perfectly.
Matt 7:20
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.KJV

The gifts of the Spirit in this particular church were strongly divided. You could tell the difference between what you are saying Quaffer, as in not knowing what to pray, and the Holy Spirit leading, and the fact someone is standing in the aisle gossiping and then turns to start praying in tongues. There is not any praying in English so the person has any clue what is going on it's just a constant babble of the same "words". If it's a language then why would people be saying "babalalababa lalabababa" or something like that over and over. We have many words for our language. Why wouldn't God's love language have the same. The people I have also heard pray in tongues that I believe are from God a wonderful gift don't just babble one or two sylabels.
It's hard to explain in a way. I will try without messing it up to bad.
What you are saying Quaffer is true and I agree with it completely. Praying or even singing in the Spirit personally is awesome and edifying, and then there are what I call public tongues, when you pray for someone else or have the interpertation and for the non-believer etc.

You just know the difference. I can't explain it but God has shown me the difference. This woman and a few others in the church I would not want or allow to pray over me in tongues. I have dealt to many times with people praying curses over others and such that it is something I asked for and God showed me (*in this situation) the truth. We bless with our words as well as we can curse with our mouths. The Bible also states somewhere about testing the spirits and not letting just anyone lay hands on you.
I would go into detail (with scripture) but I am short on time today.

This is not easy for me to explain I guess, but she would at will just pray in tongues when you asked her to. I believe it's false. It may have started out as a true gift from God but it is no longer. Maybe I am wrong. But I don't think so in this situation. It's a false spirit of tongues in this place. Unfortunately the Pastor also has begun to use it from the flesh. There is such a difference when it was not from the flesh.
What I was refering to with the Holy of Holies, is that there is a certain frame of mind/spirit person that we enter into when we pray in tongues or manifest any gift of the Spirit. There is prayer, praise and worship, sacrifice and offering, thanksgiving. Maybe not in that order, but if someone says hey- come talk in tongues, don't you think it would be creepy if they were just speaking it like a second language like from english to spanish?

Anyway I agree with you Qauffer, about your post and what it says and I believe that is the truth to praying in tongues, but if someone can stand there gossiping and chatting with others and then automatically start speaking in tongues, it's weird to me. Have I confused everyone? I hope not. It's a gift, not something that is taught.

When you pray at will Quaffer, are you in the God state of mind and seeking His answers? It seems to me that is what you are saying when you pray at will. I can understand that. To me that's natuarl, but what I am saying doesn't match what you are saying. People at this church will just start praying, there is no fruit of the spirit, and it's wrong what they are doing.
Maybe I should send them here or print the posts - hehe - but somehow now I am the insane person for leaving a church that is under false teaching and false worship.

Maybe I will begin a new post about what happened in this place. It would make an excellent discussion. It's downright creepy and scarey. Sometimes when you start seeking the truth and you get the truth from God, it's not easy to deal with. But I can no longer die with them. I keep them in prayer, the deception has snagged many people into following the Pastor and not God. If you keep following God and not the Pastor - he uses the pulpit to belittle and talk down to you. It's just plain wrong and sad.

Anyhow, it's nice to meet you all. I understand and appreciate your posts. Quaffer, I am not saying everyone who can pray at will is wrong. I am just saying this particular situation was and is false.
Seeking the Truth always.
I may not show much wisdom with this post Ken I am on short time right now! It's a weird situation. I may not show much wisdom at all. LOL It's always a journey!
Bless God and Peace to you all. I look forward to chatting with all of you.

 

[SnuP]

when I was in the church of God they taught that it was impossible to pray in tongues unless the Spirit of God came upon you and iniciated it. My father and I once went to a church were the pastor asked the congregation to all start praying in tongues. Needless to say, we imediately left. Now I wish that we had not. The Bible doesn't say that God has to be the one that starts it for you or that some significant spiritual event has to first occur before a person begins to use their prayer language. And thats my point, it is their prayer language, given to them by God. A gift does not come with strings attached. I will say that there seems to be a requirement for my attitude to change before I can start praying though. And it does seem impossible for one to be in sin and then imediately start speaking in tongues. But I can not judge this because that is for God. I do know that tongues are a gift that I can utilies whenever I choose, but as I said, I also notice that I have to shift my attitude before I can start. But that may be something that I have determined in me that really has nothing to do with the working of the gift. Like I said in a previous post and as Andrew and Quaffer have stated, there is always a drawing toward Christ when one speakes in tongues, if not then it is not of God. That is the only requirement that I know of, and the only guage that I have to prove the validity of it. I can speak in tongues on demand, and it always refocuses my attention to Christ. This is how I know that it can be done. In addition is Paul's recomendation that we speak in tongues often.
For the person who always waits for the power of God to come over them before they start, you are missing out. Tongues is a primary way of moving into the spirit. A way of cricifying the works of the flesh.

It should be stated that all words have spirit to them. Tongues always have a righteous spirituality to them, just as praise and thanksgiving always should have righteousness in their words. If you have nothing to say that is Godly, then don't just keep your mouth shut, open it and speak in tongues. That by attening a right attitude and giving your spirit control of your suroundings, you can speak something positive, and maybe God will start to use you, instead of you being a bump on a log and utterly useless to the kingdom. Always try to speak from the kingdom of God. If you don't know what to say, at least you know that speaking in tongues is from the kingdom of God. I am sure that this practice will yeild more words from God that others can understand.

 

[superdave]

I love this part of the forum... I have agreed with everything that has been said...

 

[SnuP]

it is great isn't it. Just make one want to giggle.